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Post by timholycross on Jan 21, 2019 12:13:24 GMT -5
By any fair standard, Georgetown did a great job educating Ewing. They set up an extraordinary educational plan for him, and pretty much hid him from the media for his time at Georgetown, but after all that he graduated with a real education. They didn't just use him and throw him away. Today he is a fine representative of the university. That does not change the fact that they admitted a kid who was nowhere near the bell curve of their student body in order to win their championship. It's not just a case of playing in the Big East to have these championships and Final Four's. You also have to create a special admission standard for star athletes to have a reasonably level playing field. Although one can debate whether it a good trade-off, I don't think HC has ever been prepared to make that kind of compromise Georgetown took a chance on a young kid and that kid took full advantage of the opportunity presented him. Didn't hurt Georgetown a bit and I'll argue it actually benefited them. Any school would love to have Patrick Ewing as a graduate and representative of their institution. For people to say he was dumb and didn't deserve what he earned are wrong. It's OK to take a chance on kids that aren't quite up to the "lofty" standards that HC boasts. Doesn't compromise the college in any way. In fact makes it look better. The trouble with a 2019 version of Pat Ewing is that by the time a school could bring him up to a level where he could do college work, he'd be gone from there and have accomplished very little to benefit himself in that regard. And because of that, there are I'm sure many kids of that ilk that don't even try.
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Post by possum on Jan 21, 2019 12:55:39 GMT -5
timholycross said HC would have been bottomfeeder in BigEast and at best a BC, this kind of thinking is why we are not in the Big East, PerrySr and Blaney were up for the challenge. If we were the equal of BC that would have resulted in 11 NCAA appearances and 3 Elite 8 appearances in the 25 years they were in BE. I would settle for that as opposed to where we've been over that period.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Jan 21, 2019 12:58:15 GMT -5
First, I was surprised we lost this game. Second, I was surprised we lost at home. Third, I was even more surprised we blew a late lead. I looked on Twitter to see what was being spoken about with regard to the men's game. There MAY have been one post regarding it that wasn't one of the social media accounts managed by HC themselves. There were lots more about various "Holy Cross" high school-related events within the last few days, but literally no one on the entire Twitterverse was talking about this game. It's disappointment in a vacuum. A tree is falling in a forest with no one there to hear it except for us. The sound isn't nearly loud enough. “Since being named the school's eighth director of athletics on Dec. 17, 2013, Pine has quickly revitalized the athletics program and transformed the athletics culture on Mount St. James to put Holy Cross back into the national consciousness” What a colossal fraud.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 21, 2019 13:19:06 GMT -5
First, I was surprised we lost this game. Second, I was surprised we lost at home. Third, I was even more surprised we blew a late lead. I looked on Twitter to see what was being spoken about with regard to the men's game. There MAY have been one post regarding it that wasn't one of the social media accounts managed by HC themselves. There were lots more about various "Holy Cross" high school-related events within the last few days, but literally no one on the entire Twitterverse was talking about this game. It's disappointment in a vacuum. A tree is falling in a forest with no one there to hear it except for us. The sound isn't nearly loud enough. “Since being named the school's eighth director of athletics on Dec. 17, 2013, Pine has quickly revitalized the athletics program and transformed the athletics culture on Mount St. James to put Holy Cross back into the national consciousness” What a colossal fraud. If you say it enough, it eventually becomes true. The second line of Pine's bio on the Air Force site -- Pine quickly revitalized the athletics program at Holy Cross and transformed the athletics culture on Mount St. James to put Holy Cross back into the national consciousness, while continuing to honor the academic mission of the College.Yes, fraud.
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Post by hcpride on Jan 21, 2019 14:18:48 GMT -5
/\ I can imagine a puzzled air force cadet or staffer thinking, "back in the national consciousness"....hmmmm...where is this Holy Cross place?? /\
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Post by timholycross on Jan 21, 2019 15:10:50 GMT -5
timholycross said HC would have been bottomfeeder in BigEast and at best a BC, this kind of thinking is why we are not in the Big East, PerrySr and Blaney were up for the challenge. If we were the equal of BC that would have resulted in 11 NCAA appearances and 3 Elite 8 appearances in the 25 years they were in BE. I would settle for that as opposed to where we've been over that period. Well I said I would have settled for being Northwestern and, to coin a phrase, being entertained more. Maybe I would have been pleasantly surprised and they did better than that. Fine with me. The only negative I can see is the league, like they did with others, would have forced the Cross out of the Hart Center, at least for league games. Not a big DCU fan, but I guess I would have gotten used to that too.
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Post by longsuffering on Jan 21, 2019 15:15:58 GMT -5
If you base it on improved performance over five years, yes NP was all hat and no cattle. There may be other measuring sticks he fared better on.
How about a good analysis of Gonzaga's academic and athletic standing as compared to Holy Cross, 50 years ago, 10 years ago and currently. What decisions did they make that differed with ours?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 21, 2019 15:34:15 GMT -5
Gonzaga-- great basketball program and...……...
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Post by longsuffering on Jan 21, 2019 15:50:08 GMT -5
That's my impression also, you rarely or never notice them on lists of top colleges or universities. I know that their fellow WCC member St. Mary's recruited heavily in Australia, which is much closer to CA than it is to MA and some of those players helped them get to the Sweet Sixteen and upgrade their BB program. I think SM also dropped football around the same time their BB program ascended.
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 21, 2019 15:56:59 GMT -5
St. Mary's is closer to Australia than Massachusetts? Really!?
Having had to travel to the west coast often and having flown from L.A. to Sydney I could have sworn the distance and travel time wasn't even close. That is, Australia is MUCH farther away from the west coast than the west coast is to the east coast.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 21, 2019 16:07:34 GMT -5
St. Mary's is closer to Australia than Massachusetts? Really!? Having had to travel to the west coast often and having flown from L.A. to Sydney I could have sworn the distance and travel time wasn't even close. That is, Australia is MUCH farther away from the west coast than the west coast is to the east coast. I've flown LAX to Sydney--very great distance. Los Angeles is actually much closer to London, Paris, Madrid, Warsaw, or even Moscow than it is to Sydney.
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Post by bison137 on Jan 21, 2019 17:14:41 GMT -5
St. Mary's is closer to Australia than Massachusetts? Really!? Having had to travel to the west coast often and having flown from L.A. to Sydney I could have sworn the distance and travel time wasn't even close. That is, Australia is MUCH farther away from the west coast than the west coast is to the east coast. I've flown LAX to Sydney--very great distance. Los Angeles is actually much closer to London, Paris, Madrid, Warsaw, or even Moscow than it is to Sydney. Sydney is approximately 3x as far from San Francisco as is NYC. Distance from San Fran to Sydney = 7424 miles. From San Fran to NYC = 2565 miles.
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Post by HCFC45 on Jan 21, 2019 17:25:46 GMT -5
A quick reading of these pages of posts shows how far off topic we have gone since last Saturday's loss.... Thankfully we have a game on Wednesday (unlike football where you have to wait at least a week before the next game) or this thread could go for another 10 pages or possibly more of worldwide topics! !
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Post by timholycross on Jan 21, 2019 17:29:38 GMT -5
I think he means that Sydney is closer to St. Mary's than Sydney is to NYC. Makes sense because the flight route from NYC to Australia goes west, not east. 9938 miles according to one site, versus the 7424 from Sydney to SF.
I guess you can ask Aron Baynes of the Celtics to confirm that!
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Post by Ignutz on Jan 21, 2019 18:01:21 GMT -5
By any fair standard, Georgetown did a great job educating Ewing. They set up an extraordinary educational plan for him, and pretty much hid him from the media for his time at Georgetown, but after all that he graduated with a real education. They didn't just use him and throw him away. Today he is a fine representative of the university. That does not change the fact that they admitted a kid who was nowhere near the bell curve of their student body in order to win their championship. It's not just a case of playing in the Big East to have these championships and Final Four's. You also have to create a special admission standard for star athletes to have a reasonably level playing field. Although one can debate whether it a good trade-off, I don't think HC has ever been prepared to make that kind of compromise Georgetown took a chance on a young kid and that kid took full advantage of the opportunity presented him. Didn't hurt Georgetown a bit and I'll argue it actually benefited them. Any school would love to have Patrick Ewing as a graduate and representative of their institution. For people to say he was dumb and didn't deserve what he earned are wrong. It's OK to take a chance on kids that aren't quite up to the "lofty" standards that HC boasts. Doesn't compromise the college in any way. In fact makes it look better. A former president of Alma Mater, when asked about the difference between HC scholarship athletes and BC scholarship athletes, said “BC has places to hide people.” I would say that the same was true at G’town in the Ewing days - as it is today. It’s also likely that the same can be said about Duke, UVA, Michigan, Northwestern and other “high academic” and athletically successful institutions. With only about 1500 men on campus, it truly is difficult for us to hide people, and as such, it will likely always be difficult for us to compete against the schools listed above. My question: Why are we having difficulty competing against our brethren in the PL - who should have the same (or very similar) hiding people issues?
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Jan 21, 2019 18:25:31 GMT -5
Since discussion of conference upgrades and/or rehashing what went wrong 40 years ago can never wait until the offseason, I have a suggestion (a serious one): how about a pinned message thread devoted to the subject, where people can post to their hearts delight? That way, no one can accuse others of being board policemen, while those who actually still care about the kids who currently take the court can have game and post game discussions about the game at hand without diversions Dean could either move conference messages over to the pinned thread, or delete them if they continue to be sprayed about the board. Just a suggestion.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Jan 21, 2019 18:46:13 GMT -5
+1 Dave. I said the same thing earlier in this thread. Dean - please accommodate so we don't have to read about actions from 40 years ago and distances between cities around the world in game discussion threads.
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Post by trimster on Jan 21, 2019 18:54:44 GMT -5
Georgetown took a chance on a young kid and that kid took full advantage of the opportunity presented him. Didn't hurt Georgetown a bit and I'll argue it actually benefited them. Any school would love to have Patrick Ewing as a graduate and representative of their institution. For people to say he was dumb and didn't deserve what he earned are wrong. It's OK to take a chance on kids that aren't quite up to the "lofty" standards that HC boasts. Doesn't compromise the college in any way. In fact makes it look better. A former president of Alma Mater, when asked about the difference between HC scholarship athletes and BC scholarship athletes, said “BC has places to hide people.” I would say that the same was true at G’town in the Ewing days - as it is today. It’s also likely that the same can be said about Duke, UVA, Michigan, Northwestern and other “high academic” and athletically successful institutions. With only about 1500 men on campus, it truly is difficult for us to hide people, and as such, it will likely always be difficult for us to compete against the schools listed above. My question: Why are we having difficulty competing against our brethren in the PL - who should have the same (or very similar) hiding people issues? A couple of thoughts. Your last point is a very good question. Secondly, I don't think too many alumni and other followers of HC athletics, at least those with a grasp on reality, expect HC to compete athletically with the colleges you mention. Lastly, when has HC ever been in the business of hiding people. I would love to see a strong hoops program but if you gave me the choice of being in the BE and following the Georgetown model or being in the PL, I wouldn't think twice about choosing the PL. I find it interesting to look at the academic accomplishments of the student athletes who led the resurgence of the men's hoop program in the 70's. Three Crusader of the Year recipients in a 4 year stretch, one of whom had a straight A GPA, several of whom received an NCAA post graduate scholarship, another who received both a degree from HC and WPI as part of the 3-2. Program, another who went on to earn his PHD in Physics. Does that sound like a program that is looking to "hide people academically". Academic and athletic success aren't mutually exclusive.
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Post by possum on Jan 21, 2019 19:08:52 GMT -5
NAD this thread went off the rails when you responded to HC87.
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Post by Ignutz on Jan 21, 2019 19:50:35 GMT -5
A former president of Alma Mater, when asked about the difference between HC scholarship athletes and BC scholarship athletes, said “BC has places to hide people.” I would say that the same was true at G’town in the Ewing days - as it is today. It’s also likely that the same can be said about Duke, UVA, Michigan, Northwestern and other “high academic” and athletically successful institutions. With only about 1500 men on campus, it truly is difficult for us to hide people, and as such, it will likely always be difficult for us to compete against the schools listed above. My question: Why are we having difficulty competing against our brethren in the PL - who should have the same (or very similar) hiding people issues? A couple of thoughts. Your last point is a very good question. Secondly, I don't think too many alumni and other followers of HC athletics, at least those with a grasp on reality, expect HC to compete athletically with the colleges you mention. Lastly, when has HC ever been in the business of hiding people. I would love to see a strong hoops program but if you gave me the choice of being in the BE and following the Georgetown model or being in the PL, I wouldn't think twice about choosing the PL. I find it interesting to look at the academic accomplishments of the student athletes who led the resurgence of the men's hoop program in the 70's. Three Crusader of the Year recipients in a 4 year stretch, one of whom had a straight A GPA, several of whom received an NCAA post graduate scholarship, another who received both a degree from HC and WPI as part of the 3-2. Program, another who went on to earn his PHD in Physics. Does that sound like a program that is looking to "hide people academically". Academic and athletic success aren't mutually exclusive. I agree with everything you say, and think we’re riding up-front on the very same train. I don’t know of anytime that we’ve hidden anyone, and hope that we never do. (And by the way, I believe I know personally each of those of whom you speak.)
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Post by trimster on Jan 21, 2019 19:59:10 GMT -5
They were quite a group. I had some great times following them. I am not naive enough to think we didn't have some student athletes who weren't the best of students but I'd like to believe they were the exception, by far.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Jan 21, 2019 20:58:26 GMT -5
NAD this thread went off the rails when you responded to HC87. Good point.....I suppose there was a chance it wouldn't have gone any further if I kept quiet.
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Post by jkh67 on Jan 21, 2019 21:00:37 GMT -5
Here's the thing. Holy Cross, like it or not, marches to the beat of a different drummer. We are not ever going to be "big time" sports. At best, we can be a big fish in a small pond. In part because by conscious decision and design, we will be and remain a relatively small liberal arts college. We might see over the coming decades a small tweak here and there but that's it. We will never even try to compete with large state universities. We will not become a member of an expanded Ivy League because they aren't going to expand and, if they did, until we lose the Catholic identity, any discussions would be a non-starter. So, we find ourselves in a unique niche. Not for everyone. In fact, not for most. What Holy Cross does do academically, it excels in. Holy Cross pumps out leaders in medicine, law, politics and business within a progressively more diverse campus environment for a progressively more diverse world. That's the focus - not athletics. While I believe we can and should do better and strive to excel in athletics, like a governor on a bus or truck, there are limitations to just how "fast" we can go. So, for those who want to bring back the success of the past, temper your expectations or become Georgetown, BC or Notre Dame fans to avoid ulcers. I agree that the old days when HC was a recognized factor on the college basketball scene are fading memories that are not going to repeat in this day and age. Old timers like me can bemoan that reality and castigate Brooks all we want for not grabbing that BE brass ring when it was there for the taking, but he's dead and buried and we are where we are, like it or not. The question is where we go from here. First thing we need to do is show that we are top tier in the PL on a regular basis, with a crack at the title and an NCAA bid every second or third year. We are nowhere near that state of grace today. Once we establish that "street cred", the A10 or the CAA (but not the BE) may become possibilities, but I'm going to guess that we will always opt to remain in the PL for a number of good and sufficient reasons. In any case, that's hopefully a question we will want to consider once we have that "street cred". The issue is how we get to top tier PL status in basketball. Football may show us the way. It is admittedly early days, but I'm betting that Coach Chesney will turn that program around with his youth, energy, winning attitude, and (dare I say it?) charisma. We need to find someone like Chesney to have any hope of resurrecting HC basketball. Someone who can recruit quality players and coach them well. Not an easy task in the swamp that is PL basketball, but not impossible (I hope!). Carmody's done his best, no doubt. But it ain't workin'. Time to move on!
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Post by ndgradbuthcfan on Jan 21, 2019 21:51:20 GMT -5
Here's the thing. Holy Cross, like it or not, marches to the beat of a different drummer. We are not ever going to be "big time" sports. At best, we can be a big fish in a small pond. In part because by conscious decision and design, we will be and remain a relatively small liberal arts college. We might see over the coming decades a small tweak here and there but that's it. We will never even try to compete with large state universities. We will not become a member of an expanded Ivy League because they aren't going to expand and, if they did, until we lose the Catholic identity, any discussions would be a non-starter. So, we find ourselves in a unique niche. Not for everyone. In fact, not for most. What Holy Cross does do academically, it excels in. Holy Cross pumps out leaders in medicine, law, politics and business within a progressively more diverse campus environment for a progressively more diverse world. That's the focus - not athletics. While I believe we can and should do better and strive to excel in athletics, like a governor on a bus or truck, there are limitations to just how "fast" we can go. So, for those who want to bring back the success of the past, temper your expectations or become Georgetown, BC or Notre Dame fans to avoid ulcers. I agree that the old days when HC was a recognized factor on the college basketball scene are fading memories that are not going to repeat in this day and age. Old timers like me can bemoan that reality and castigate Brooks all we want for not grabbing that BE brass ring when it was there for the taking, but he's dead and buried and we are where we are, like it or not. The question is where we go from here. First thing we need to do is show that we are top tier in the PL on a regular basis, with a crack at the title and an NCAA bid every second or third year. We are nowhere near that state of grace today. Once we establish that "street cred", the A10 or the CAA (but not the BE) may become possibilities, but I'm going to guess that we will always opt to remain in the PL for a number of good and sufficient reasons. In any case, that's hopefully a question we will want to consider once we have that "street cred". The issue is how we get to top tier PL status in basketball. Football may show us the way. It is admittedly early days, but I'm betting that Coach Chesney will turn that program around with his youth, energy, winning attitude, and (dare I say it?) charisma. We need to find someone like Chesney to have any hope of resurrecting HC basketball. Someone who can recruit quality players and coach them well. Not an easy task in the swamp that is PL basketball, but not impossible (I hope!). Carmody's done his best, no doubt. But it ain't workin'. Time to move on! You were on a roll until you called the PL "the swamp". And recruiting should not be insurmountable either; we just need to be a more attractive option than the other PL teams.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 22, 2019 10:45:17 GMT -5
With about two minutes remaining in regulation, Loyola had a 2.9% chance to win the game -- kenpom.com/winprob.php?g=3142Simply a colossal collapse.
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