letsgohc
Climbing Mt. St. James
Posts: 80
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Post by letsgohc on Feb 28, 2019 19:44:44 GMT -5
Do we really want a young energetic guy who gets HC back up the list and does it by cheating and violating NCAA rules? I, for one, do not. Nobody wants that. But we also do not want to be stuck with a lifeless, barely mediocre coach, whose best days were at Princeton as an assistant.
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Post by rgs318 on Feb 28, 2019 19:46:39 GMT -5
Luckily that is not what we have.
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Post by trimster on Feb 28, 2019 19:55:54 GMT -5
When Nichols College is outdrawing us at the Hart Centah....something is very wrong. The football analogy doesn't work imo (others may disagree of course)....football is playing at a different level...Chesney (and Carter, Duffner etc) can bring energy and build a winning program but it's still at a level well below the top college football programs in America (as it should be given our size etc). With basketball, the model is there for us to be successful at the very highest level (see: PC, Villanova etc) but we choose to muddle along at the bottom of D1 basketball. At this stage of the game, we have far more in common with NYU than we do with PC, BC, Villanova, etc. For those of you not familiar with the Violets, they had an outstanding hoops program in the 50's and 60's, dropped the program for a number of years and have been a D 3 program for some time.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Feb 28, 2019 20:11:55 GMT -5
Do we really want a young energetic guy who gets HC back up the list and does it by cheating and violating NCAA rules? I, for one, do not. Nobody wants that. But we also do not want to be stuck with a lifeless, barely mediocre coach, whose best days were at Princeton as an assistant. And who has also had 3 scholarship + 1 walk-on players thrown off the team and/or out of school.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Feb 28, 2019 20:36:56 GMT -5
Nobody wants that. But we also do not want to be stuck with a lifeless, barely mediocre coach, whose best days were at Princeton as an assistant. And who has also had 3 scholarship + 1 walk-on players thrown off the team and/or out of school. When you combine the horrific results along with losing three scholarship players, finding a new coach after this ends in the next two or three games really is a no brainer.
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Post by hc87 on Feb 28, 2019 20:49:35 GMT -5
Again, a new coach may help...but we'll still be playing before largely empty gyms in a 3rd tier league for all of January and February.
The kids playing in the PL are outstanding players but it simply isn't a "basketball league"....it's one of the worst attended basketball leagues in the country, the sport is often the 3rd or 4th most important at some of the PL schools, there is simply hardly any buzz about PL hoop.
If Holy Cross wanted to pick a league that would relinquish basketball into obscurity....it picked the right one.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Feb 28, 2019 20:56:00 GMT -5
Fordham should bring in Pitino.
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Post by jkh67 on Feb 28, 2019 20:56:40 GMT -5
1A) Fire the coaching staff. Hire a new head coach with an understanding of defense and a system that is able to make the whole greater than the sum of his parts. We are never going to be successful if we are just trying outscore opponents that have more talent than us, and we are never going to assemble enough raw talent to be able to compete with better teams taking that approach. Ensure that the new coach is able to assemble a strong staff with diverse skill sets and experience (like what Chesney was able to do with his first football staff). Any other step after this one will not have a significant impact on the program unless the current staff is replaced with a group that can actually capitalize on the improvements.
1B) Assemble a “task force” led by guys like Ralph Willard and George Blaney to lead the search for a new head coach and work closely with the administration/BOT to develop a plan for short- and long-term improvements for the program. 2) Perform a study on Admissions decisions over the past 5-10 years. Review who was accepted, who was not accepted, where those that were not accepted ended up, how we stack up against the AI compared to other PL schools, etc. Take action to ensure that there is accountability in the Admissions department, and we are accepting the best possible players we can get within the AI criteria. 3) Would have been to invest in the basketball facility, but after $95M+ spent on the Luth with a minimal amount spent on basketball outside of an auxiliary gym, that ship has likely sailed for the time being. 4) Spearhead an overhaul of the current atrocious PL media package. Get the league off the invisible CBS Sports Network and Watch Stadium and onto ESPN+, taking any open slots the league can also get for ESPNU or ESPN2 (for example, the old 9:00 PM Friday time slot that resulted in awesome home environments). 5) Play a challenging and interesting OOC schedule. Schedule BC, Providence, UCONN, and St. Johns as much as possible. Play against teams that will jump off the schedule and attract the interest of alums/fans. Try to get home-and-homes or 2-for-1s against A10 teams. 6) Prepare to capitalize on any potential conference opening in a league like the A10. It is a pipedream at this point given how the program has essentially been gutted over the last 10 years, but if we can get the next hire right, who knows where the program could be in 4-5 years. Amen, brother. The problem is that HC's basketball tradition has gradually seeped out of the collegiate DNA...for the BOT, TPTB, and students. As I and others have noted, a Chesney type guy is the only hope at this point. Sad to see a school with such a great b'ball tradition disappear with nary a whimper...except from folks on this board. But the fact that no one else seems to care speaks volumes about where we are, does it not!?! Among many other disappointments, I regret that former Crusader players and coaches have not been beating the drum for improvement. Where are you guys!?!
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 28, 2019 20:57:37 GMT -5
Personally, I kinda like football. Basketball is fine but football is still my #1 HC sport. Basketball, maybe 1A.
As for the PL, I think Bucknell and to a lesser extent, Lehigh, have gotten the PL noticed in post season play in men's basketball. We can't blame the PL for basketball obscurity. It's on us and no one else to blame. Certainly not the league.
Other than perhaps LAX, which I really don't follow, the PL is reportedly very good at that sport. But, if anything, I would say the PL is a basketball league first. Football second thanks to Colgate.
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Post by Tom on Feb 28, 2019 21:01:13 GMT -5
When Nichols College is outdrawing us at the Hart Centah....something is very wrong. The football analogy doesn't work imo (others may disagree of course)....football is playing at a different level...Chesney (and Carter, Duffner etc) can bring energy and build a winning program but it's still at a level well below the top college football programs in America (as it should be given our size etc). With basketball, the model is there for us to be successful at the very highest level (see: PC, Villanova etc) but we choose to muddle along at the bottom of D1 basketball. I suppose it depends on what a marquee sport is. Can being the big fish in a little pond count as a marquee? Being in the hunt for the league title virtually every year and occasional wins in the field of 64 sounds marquee to me. That is different than being in the national consciousness. If you want to be successful at the very highest level, just follow the PC and Villanova model, Lower your standards for athletes. I'm not talking about kids that would be on the very bottom of the bell curve. I'm talking orders of magnitude from your student population. It will greatly increase the number of stud athletes out there.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 28, 2019 21:02:15 GMT -5
Nah, they should bring back Digger Phelps. He may still have a few years left on his contract with them after he left for ND. And they'd only have to pay him 1970-71 wages! [ Correction: 1971-72 wages. They already paid him for '70-'71]
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Feb 28, 2019 21:44:30 GMT -5
Personally, I kinda like football. Basketball is fine but football is still my #1 HC sport. Basketball, maybe 1A. As for the PL, I think Bucknell and to a lesser extent, Lehigh, have gotten the PL noticed in post season play in men's basketball. We can't blame the PL for basketball obscurity. It's on us and no one else to blame. Certainly not the league. Other than perhaps LAX, which I really don't follow, the PL is reportedly very good at that sport. But, if anything, I would say the PL is a basketball league first. Football second thanks to Colgate. Ehhh, I’d actually say the PL is a football league more so than hoops right now and certainly historically. The basketball league certainly is deeper than it was 12-15 years ago when Army, Navy, Lafayette and Colgate were amongst the absolute worst programs in th country in DI. However, we still have Wednesdays where the whole league draws a combined 2,500 for four games. Holy Cross - proud traditions in both football and basketball. Definitely more of a basketball school during the 2000s despite maintaining a loyal football following. 2010s - we draw FLIES at the Hart. Colgate - Basketball Program has been competitive recently but this has not grown attendance or interest. When was the last time 1,000+ were in Kotterelll — when they hosted the 08 semi against Bucknell? Definitely a football school and our flagship one at that. Lehigh - CJ McCollum and the Duke win put basketball on the map here. But Bethlehem has always been a football town. I’ll take a day at Goodman over a game in Stabler any day (though I enjoyed the ‘16 PLC). Lafayette - Relatively loyal following for both but the rivalry football game with Lehigh is the elephant in the room. O’Hanlon overall has done a good job here with basketball. They need to right the ship in football. Fordham - football history trumps hoops, hands down. And if they weren’t in the A10, NO ONE would go to basketball games here, minus Battle of the Bronx or the occasional home game they get against ST JOHNS. Bucknell - No doubt a basketball school. FLAGSHIP. Loyola - only FULL Division I member in the COUNTRY where LAX is the top spectator sport. BU - Its Hockey and then everything else Navy/Army - their entire athletic departments and a lot of their public outreach for the academies revolve around their FBS football membership. Navy couldn’t even fill Alumni Hall for a game against Maryland this year — basketball a wasteland for whatever reason at West Point and Annapolis despite having strong niche followings in other sports (Navy lax, Army hockey). American - no one cares about sports here in general. Like AT ALL. Georgetown - Obviosuly their affiliate membership has added absolutely NOTHING to the leagues football culture.
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letsgohc
Climbing Mt. St. James
Posts: 80
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Post by letsgohc on Feb 28, 2019 21:56:13 GMT -5
Luckily that is not what we have. If my employees had his success rate, I would have let him go after the first couple of months. And fight with unemployment NOT to allow him to collect. I am sick and tired of reading about the lack of talent. Shaking my head after every game that JF doesn't get a double double in this league
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 28, 2019 22:43:23 GMT -5
OK, that leaves out little Ricky and Coach Cal. Will you put up with Geno's sarcasm?😉
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Post by HCFC45 on Feb 28, 2019 23:29:15 GMT -5
The silver bullet got lodged in Dave Gavitt's ass when fired from Fr. Brooks' pistol back in '79. Nominate this for "All Time Crossports Post"! !
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Post by hceconhist on Mar 1, 2019 10:30:08 GMT -5
Do we really want a young energetic guy who gets HC back up the list and does it by cheating and violating NCAA rules? I, for one, do not. No. Like the AD position, the ideal candidate would be committed to building a program to top PL status within the ethos of the institution itself.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Mar 1, 2019 10:30:12 GMT -5
I can quite get on board with the gym vs. arena thing. When it's full, in a big game, it's a GREAT place to watch a game imho. No one sees the bleacher seats when there are a$$es in them. And the sightlines are as good as it gets. Colgate is managing with their barn.....and has anyone seen St. Mary's McKeon Pavilion? I'd take their program in a heartbeat. Two things, NAD: 1-- I love a full Hart Center. One of my fondest memories of Holy Cross was standing in the rafters with guys from the football team while we played Princeton in front of a packed house. Hot, stuffy, loud, exciting. The experience can't be beat. 2-- The Hart Center isn't bopping like that lately. It doesn't appear to be bopping like that anytime soon. So if you're a 6'12" big in the words of HC70, or a stud guard from somewhere NOT Massachusetts for a change, who is touring campus to see what the school is about, and you walk into a place that has bleachers, or could be smaller than your high school gym, it may not pass the eye test. It's not the "wow" that I let out when I went to my first game at Bucknell. These are the things that are competing for the athletes, much like I said the events are competing for the attendees/patrons just the same. What can you bring to the table? What can you offer? Now, if Hart had a regional or national reputation as one of the wildest places to play... one of the most hostile environments for opposing players and coaches to come and compete against the Crusaders-- and I believe it has been and could be again-- that's another story. I can only think of dirty analogies, so I will leave them to your imagination. But what I'm saying here is that the Hart is a book that has to be judged by a cover, because if a prospect is "reading" it lately, the story comes up short. Six kids in a band, four cheerleaders, and 27 students, where the radio announcers have to whisper during free throws to not appear to be willingly distracting shooters, is not that environment you and I both love and desire.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Mar 1, 2019 10:44:22 GMT -5
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Post by trimster on Mar 1, 2019 10:44:33 GMT -5
The Hart played to 100% of its capacity for the first 5 years of its existence. For the last 39 years, I am guessing that figure is south of 50%. We are what we are and I don't see it changing any time soon if ever. Very sad.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Mar 1, 2019 10:48:18 GMT -5
The Hart played to 100% of its capacity for the first 5 years of its existence. For the last 39 years, I am guessing that figure is south of 50%. We are what we are and I don't see it changing any time soon if ever. Very sad. Not true. There was a stretch from around 2001-2008 where average home attendance was somewhere between 2,500 - 3,000.
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Post by Tom on Mar 1, 2019 11:18:58 GMT -5
Yes they have changed. HC was coming off it's 4th dance in seven years and 6th trip to the PL final in that time frame HC has one dance and one trip to the PL final in the last 9. And in all fairness, as much fun as that run was, it was on the heels of a poor season. Certainly not a period of sustained success. To paraphrase Shoeless Joe Jackson (aka Ray Liotta) If you win, they will come
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Post by joe on Mar 1, 2019 11:19:29 GMT -5
No one is expecting Sweet 16 runs or even consistent trips to the NCAA Tournament, but it would be nice to actually finish in the top half of our low-major league and have more than a sprinkling of winning seasons. Why the hell not?
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Post by hc87 on Mar 1, 2019 11:30:23 GMT -5
Did we really average 2-3K per game in 2001-2008? I'm a tad skeptical. I know I went to a few decent crowd games back then, Wintah Homecoming, the rare decent OOC game (St Joe's), PL tourney games etc....but I think there were many nights then when we didn't draw anywhere near 2K.
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Post by notjuanjones on Mar 1, 2019 11:31:06 GMT -5
Personally, I kinda like football. Basketball is fine but football is still my #1 HC sport. Basketball, maybe 1A. As for the PL, I think Bucknell and to a lesser extent, Lehigh, have gotten the PL noticed in post season play in men's basketball. We can't blame the PL for basketball obscurity. It's on us and no one else to blame. Certainly not the league. Other than perhaps LAX, which I really don't follow, the PL is reportedly very good at that sport. But, if anything, I would say the PL is a basketball league first. Football second thanks to Colgate. Ehhh, I’d actually say the PL is a football league more so than hoops right now and certainly historically. The basketball league certainly is deeper than it was 12-15 years ago when Army, Navy, Lafayette and Colgate were amongst the absolute worst programs in th country in DI. However, we still have Wednesdays where the whole league draws a combined 2,500 for four games. Holy Cross - proud traditions in both football and basketball. Definitely more of a basketball school during the 2000s despite maintaining a loyal football following. 2010s - we draw FLIES at the Hart. Colgate - Basketball Program has been competitive recently but this has not grown attendance or interest. When was the last time 1,000+ were in Kotterelll — when they hosted the 08 semi against Bucknell? Definitely a football school and our flagship one at that. Lehigh - CJ McCollum and the Duke win put basketball on the map here. But Bethlehem has always been a football town. I’ll take a day at Goodman over a game in Stabler any day (though I enjoyed the ‘16 PLC). Lafayette - Relatively loyal following for both but the rivalry football game with Lehigh is the elephant in the room. O’Hanlon overall has done a good job here with basketball. They need to right the ship in football. Fordham - football history trumps hoops, hands down. And if they weren’t in the A10, NO ONE would go to basketball games here, minus Battle of the Bronx or the occasional home game they get against ST JOHNS. Bucknell - No doubt a basketball school. FLAGSHIP. Loyola - only FULL Division I member in the COUNTRY where LAX is the top spectator sport. BU - Its Hockey and then everything else Navy/Army - their entire athletic departments and a lot of their public outreach for the academies revolve around their FBS football membership. Navy couldn’t even fill Alumni Hall for a game against Maryland this year — basketball a wasteland for whatever reason at West Point and Annapolis despite having strong niche followings in other sports (Navy lax, Army hockey). American - no one cares about sports here in general. Like AT ALL. Georgetown - Obviosuly their affiliate membership has added absolutely NOTHING to the leagues football culture. I wanted to object on behalf of AU fans, but...I really can't. It's been troubling to say the least to see students' interest in attending sports events at AU wane as rapidly as it has the last 10-15 years, with the arena smack dab in the middle of campus, within easy walking distance of every dorm. I know that's a nationwide trend in colleges, including the Power 5 schools, but it's a puzzlement, and especially considering the incredible success of AU's women's teams (15 NCAA appearances for volleyball in 18 years, including a run to the Sweet 16 in 2013; 11 NCAA appearances for field hockey since 2003; two NCAA appearances for basketball since 2014, with three and soon to be four 20-win seasons), at a school that's now 60 percent women undergrad.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Mar 1, 2019 11:32:40 GMT -5
No one is expecting Sweet 16 runs or even consistent trips to the NCAA Tournament, but it would be nice to actually finish in the top half of our low-major league and have more than a sprinkling of winning seasons. Why the hell not? It's unreasonable to expect, given where the program is, what is being invested by way of time, attention, and smart money, that HC would have Sweet 16 runs, or consistent trips to the NCAA tournament... or even finishing in the top half of the league. However, when you talk about what the BoT, President, students, alums, and fans should not settle for less than... it's those same achievements above. I get what you were trying to say. But let's be specific: we should only expect what reality is presenting. We should NOT ACCEPT anything less than better and then best.
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