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Post by hc87 on Feb 28, 2019 11:50:05 GMT -5
Most of us here have been collectively banging our heads against the wall ever since Rick Pitino went to a certain Italian restaurant about a decade ago.
New coach? New league? Bettah recruits? Bettah facilities? More support from O'Kane/Fenwick? And on and on and on.....
Men's basketball is no longah a marquee sport at Holy Cross. it probably hasn't been since Ronnie Perry Jr graduated in 1980 if we're being totally honest with ourselves. The evidence around us is quite clear on this.
I appreciate the work/effort that the players and staff put into our basketball program but I think we have to accept the fact that men's basketball at HC today is really not substantially that different in scope than soccer, lacrosse, track&field etc etc. Just another sports program amongst the many we have at Holy Cross today.
Believe me, I'd be thrilled to be proven wrong on this but as the program exists today...we will continue to be what we are... which is a low mid-major that will win between 10-20 games a year depending on the vagaries of the sport itself.
Happy to hear what silver bullets (beside Coors Light) you guys think are out there to alter my perspective.
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Post by rgs318 on Feb 28, 2019 11:55:04 GMT -5
I don't see any. I am not foolish enough to think that simply getting rid of the head coach in any sport will, by itself, bring a better product. That version of the "Devil theory" is not a good argument. The biggest thing I see might be the AI and admissions. But, I will be the first to admit hat I do not know enough of the details of the application at HC to see exactly how that would happen.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Feb 28, 2019 12:19:44 GMT -5
The silver bullet got lodged in Dave Gavitt's ass when fired from Fr. Brooks' pistol back in '79.
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Post by hc6774 on Feb 28, 2019 13:09:36 GMT -5
The silver bullet got lodged in Dave Gavitt's ass when fired from Fr. Brooks' pistol back in '79. It was one of many that Fr Brooks fired years ago that changed the school in many ways.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 28, 2019 13:56:34 GMT -5
How about if we find the basketball counterpart to Bob Chesney--to take over when Coach Carmody's tenure concludes...
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Post by Tom on Feb 28, 2019 14:18:09 GMT -5
. Men's basketball is no longah a marquee sport at Holy Cross. it probably hasn't been since Ronnie Perry Jr graduated in 1980 if we're being totally honest with ourselves. The evidence around us is quite clear on this. I appreciate the work/effort that the players and staff put into our basketball program but I think we have to accept the fact that men's basketball at HC today is really not substantially that different in scope than soccer, lacrosse, track&field etc etc. Just another sports program amongst the many we have at Holy Cross today. . This doesn't answer what is wrong and why we continually wind up at the bottom, but I disagree with the assertion that hoops is not really different than any other sport today. There's a reason some sports are so called revenue sports. A couple of years ago, the baseball team hosted the PL championships and won. I can't find a record of attendance, but I would wager it was a fraction of what a championship game would be like for basketball. Even still it was probably better than a PL championship in soccer would draw.. The top tier sports, will gain decent support from school and city if the produce a winner. Not to the level of hoops in 1980, but decent support. It is quite a stretch to lump basketball in with every other sport.
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Post by hc87 on Feb 28, 2019 14:33:25 GMT -5
When Nichols College is outdrawing us at the Hart Centah....something is very wrong.
The football analogy doesn't work imo (others may disagree of course)....football is playing at a different level...Chesney (and Carter, Duffner etc) can bring energy and build a winning program but it's still at a level well below the top college football programs in America (as it should be given our size etc).
With basketball, the model is there for us to be successful at the very highest level (see: PC, Villanova etc) but we choose to muddle along at the bottom of D1 basketball.
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Post by gks on Feb 28, 2019 14:51:01 GMT -5
Just because an athletic department says MBB is the 'marquee' sport doesn't make it so.
We've rehashed the ways to improve the program over and over. IMO until the BOT and the administration wants to put a winning product consistently on the field and/or court everything else is meaningless.
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Post by hc87 on Feb 28, 2019 15:08:40 GMT -5
Just because an athletic department says MBB is the 'marquee' sport doesn't make it so. We've rehashed the ways to improve the program over and over. IMO until the BOT and the administration wants to put a winning product consistently on the field and/or court everything else is meaningless. And therein lies the heart of the problem....I don't think the TPTB really truly care how good we are in men's hoops...they view/see hoop as just another athletic program. It's a different HC today....just look at who posts on this board....the vast majority of people who post here or actually go to games are all ovah 45 or so...in some cases, well above that (no offense...I'm quickly joining that cohort too ) Point being, I just don't see much change in our fortunes hoop-wise moving forward. Yeah, we can win the PL and quickly get bounced in the NCAAs every few years...but 80-90% of the time, our hoop team will be playing before sparse crowds both home and away in the vacuum that is the bottom third or so of D1 basketball. Sadly, it is what it is. I've reached the "acceptance stage" on the death of HC basketball being relevant.
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Post by thecrossisback on Feb 28, 2019 15:12:54 GMT -5
I think it starts with the coach and then goes down to his recruits the players. If you can find a way at a small school to bring in some good recruiting classes. Bucknell Loyola Chicago just went to the Final Four Then you can consistently be a force in the league. The only way to get out of the league is to win. You have a big area in Worcester County. If HC had teams going to the NCAA and competing. Winning league championships especially at home. Playing good teams in out of conference and pulling some upsets. HC is in desperate need of that coach. Calipari at Umass just changed everything. Geno at UConn just changed everything. www.facebook.com/GrahamBensinger/videos/geno-auriemma-took-womens-job-out-of-desperation/342775363196908/Geno makes a good point about glorified intramurals. What I would say about HC is the fan support is there. HC just needs the support from the administration and athletic department.
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letsgohc
Climbing Mt. St. James
Posts: 80
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Post by letsgohc on Feb 28, 2019 15:37:13 GMT -5
Starts with a great energetic and gregarious coach. Someone to get Holy Cross excited about the possibility of greatness. Carmody just didn't fit the bill. We all had great hope that he would surpassed our expectations. Sadly, after the first few games of his first season, I knew he was the wrong coach for our beloved Crusaders.
What's Johnny Dawkins doing?
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Feb 28, 2019 15:39:20 GMT -5
No one is expecting Sweet 16 runs or even consistent trips to the NCAA Tournament, but it would be nice to actually finish in the top half of our low-major league and have more than a sprinkling of winning seasons.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Feb 28, 2019 15:41:19 GMT -5
What's Johnny Dawkins doing? Potentially leading UCF to the NCAA Tournament.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 28, 2019 16:00:50 GMT -5
Actually, believe it or not, that was the expectation of some of TPTB once we got scholarships back in men's basketball. I was told by the then AD, "we'll never win another national championship in basketball but we believe we can regularly get into the NCAAs and periodically get to the Sweet 16 and maybe even the Elite 8."
I guess that those expectations can now be described as "a swing and a miss."
As others have posted, the average age of a Holy Cross fan is way up there. Considering that at 70 years old, I often bring down the average age of those attending a game. The current students, in general (always exceptions), don't care and the rising generations are more into their phones and social media. TPTB probably understand this better than we do and as such aren't going to go out of their way to do what is necessary to generate enthusiasm, support and success for the "major" sports. They may have looked at this more coldly realistically than the rest of us and doing a cost/benefit analysis, decided that investments besides what has already been spent on Luth just aren't worth it. Frankly, if the Luth's didn't pony up the money they did, that edifice would never have been built - ever.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Feb 28, 2019 16:03:02 GMT -5
1A) Fire the coaching staff. Hire a new head coach with an understanding of defense and a system that is able to make the whole greater than the sum of his parts. We are never going to be successful if we are just trying outscore opponents that have more talent than us, and we are never going to assemble enough raw talent to be able to compete with better teams taking that approach. Ensure that the new coach is able to assemble a strong staff with diverse skill sets and experience (like what Chesney was able to do with his first football staff).
Any other step after this one will not have a significant impact on the program unless the current staff is replaced with a group that can actually capitalize on the improvements.
1B) Assemble a “task force” led by guys like Ralph Willard and George Blaney to lead the search for a new head coach and work closely with the administration/BOT to develop a plan for short- and long-term improvements for the program.
2) Perform a study on Admissions decisions over the past 5-10 years. Review who was accepted, who was not accepted, where those that were not accepted ended up, how we stack up against the AI compared to other PL schools, etc. Take action to ensure that there is accountability in the Admissions department, and we are accepting the best possible players we can get within the AI criteria.
3) Would have been to invest in the basketball facility, but after $95M+ spent on the Luth with a minimal amount spent on basketball outside of an auxiliary gym, that ship has likely sailed for the time being.
4) Spearhead an overhaul of the current atrocious PL media package. Get the league off the invisible CBS Sports Network and Watch Stadium and onto ESPN+, taking any open slots the league can also get for ESPNU or ESPN2 (for example, the old 9:00 PM Friday time slot that resulted in awesome home environments).
5) Play a challenging and interesting OOC schedule. Schedule BC, Providence, UCONN, and St. Johns as much as possible. Play against teams that will jump off the schedule and attract the interest of alums/fans. Try to get home-and-homes or 2-for-1s against A10 teams.
6) Prepare to capitalize on any potential conference opening in a league like the A10. It is a pipedream at this point given how the program has essentially been gutted over the last 10 years, but if we can get the next hire right, who knows where the program could be in 4-5 years.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Feb 28, 2019 16:27:39 GMT -5
Strong post, Bring Back.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 28, 2019 16:31:04 GMT -5
OK, I'll "bite" (have to get my posts in before Ash Wednesday):
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Post by hceconhist on Feb 28, 2019 16:43:57 GMT -5
I think it starts with the coach and then goes down to his recruits the players. If you can find a way at a small school to bring in some good recruiting classes. Bucknell Loyola Chicago just went to the Final Four Then you can consistently be a force in the league. The only way to get out of the league is to win. You have a big area in Worcester County. If HC had teams going to the NCAA and competing. Winning league championships especially at home. Playing good teams in out of conference and pulling some upsets. HC is in desperate need of that coach. Calipari at Umass just changed everything. Geno at UConn just changed everything. www.facebook.com/GrahamBensinger/videos/geno-auriemma-took-womens-job-out-of-desperation/342775363196908/Geno makes a good point about glorified intramurals. What I would say about HC is the fan support is there. HC just needs the support from the administration and athletic department. Worcester is in the Boston media market and not much more than a stone's throw from both Providence and UCONN, so I'm not sure if there is a natural level of support to build up to a Villanova/Providence level - especially given how obsessed Boston is with its major league sports. The Geno video you shared is interesting; thank you for sharing. While he is almost surely underemphasizing the lengths he would go to recruit top talent, I took away two key points: (1) you build a program by first understanding and embracing your current baseline and then gradually build up, and (2) the level invested in college sports has grown exponentially since he took the job (which was even years after Fr. Brooks rejected the offer to join the Big East!). I have been reading this Board since my days on Mt. St. James (early this decade) and the same Board members like to simultaneously criticize the PL and lament our lack of success within the league. The first step is to embrace your presence in the PL and build a program truly better than the sum of its parts - including the head coach. Even in the last decade Holy Cross MBB failed to achieve the last part. Why did FADR Dick Regan hire someone outside the program like Sean Kearney? Because, there was no succession plan in place or culture of leadership that went beyond Coach Willard. Brad Stevens left Butler, but they have continued to make noise; Milan Brown left MSM, but they have remained a relatively top NEC program. Holy Cross should seek a coach determined to build something far greater than himself - that's how you do it. The other manifestations (e.g., upset wins) will fall into place.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Feb 28, 2019 16:50:00 GMT -5
I agree that students nowadays have more interests competing for their attention, but don't say they won't watch college sports because they're too buried in their phones. They will watch college sports that APPEAL to them. The players are impressive. They get better. They win games. They entertain. The production (music, PA, cheering, bands, promotions, venue, coaching, competition) are of a PROFESSIONAL nature, or at least division 1 sports.
I agree with most of BBC's post above. Saddest part? $95 mil didn't get a new basketball court or new hockey rink. Sojka is a FANTASTIC and attractive aspect for prospective student athletes at Bucknell. I love the facility, and as a die-hard HC fan, am very jealous/proud that a PL cohort proved it can be done the right way.
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Post by hceconhist on Feb 28, 2019 16:55:33 GMT -5
I agree that students nowadays have more interests competing for their attention, but don't say they won't watch college sports because they're too buried in their phones. They will watch college sports that APPEAL to them. The players are impressive. They get better. They win games. They entertain. The production (music, PA, cheering, bands, promotions, venue, coaching, competition) are of a PROFESSIONAL nature, or at least division 1 sports. I agree with most of BBC's post above. Saddest part? $95 mil didn't get a new basketball court or new hockey rink. Sojka is a FANTASTIC and attractive aspect for prospective student athletes at Bucknell. I love the facility, and as a die-hard HC fan, am very jealous/proud that a PL cohort proved it can be done the right way. Exactly. If you want to attract higher OOC competition, you NEED an arena-style venue. The Worcester market is great for programs high-quality mid-majors; the PawSox didn't just move here for the gov't subsidies. If HC had its Sojka and naturally built up, it could surely start to rival Bucknell again.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 28, 2019 17:34:30 GMT -5
OK, I'll "bite" (have to get my posts in before Ash Wednesday):
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 28, 2019 17:39:46 GMT -5
'70, Ash Wednesday has been pushed back until after the basketball season this year due to the big sexual abuse conference in Rome...and a worldwide shortage of ashes due to tariffs. Can't you give up posting on the Bucknell board instead?😉
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Feb 28, 2019 17:56:09 GMT -5
I can quite get on board with the gym vs. arena thing. When it's full, in a big game, it's a GREAT place to watch a game imho. No one sees the bleacher seats when there are a$$es in them. And the sightlines are as good as it gets.
Colgate is managing with their barn.....and has anyone seen St. Mary's McKeon Pavilion? I'd take their program in a heartbeat.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 28, 2019 17:58:01 GMT -5
I will use three names mentioned to make my point: Pitino, Calipari and Gino. Before the sleaze set in, Pitino was an energetic young coach who brought PC to the final four. Calipari electrified the state of MA., when he was a young coach and took UMass to the final four (since nullified) and Gino took a sleepy program that was probably behind HC to the stratusphere.
As long as the odds are of picking the right vibrant young coach on the way up, it can happen and a college basketball program can be turned around in a few short years. Sometimes you can find a veteran coach in the rough like Ralph, also.
The key is the right AD who can identify the qualities of a vibrant winner...like Bob Kraft identified Bill Belichick and went out and got him.
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Post by rgs318 on Feb 28, 2019 19:13:33 GMT -5
Do we really want a young energetic guy who gets HC back up the list and does it by cheating and violating NCAA rules? I, for one, do not.
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