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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 21, 2019 10:08:50 GMT -5
Thanks to HC6774's memory about erected steel having to be dismantled, Google found this retrospective look of the building of the Centrum, ---a case study of municipal mis-management and gross incompetence. If I were Fr. Brooks, circa 1978, I would have expected that this building will never open. www.telegram.com/news/20170903/politics-and-city-centrum-opened-downtowns-second-actAdditional detail on the construction delays and shoddy construction. This article mentions a general contractor who was part of a consortium seeking to build the Centrum. Not Perini, though this contractor may have built buildings at HC. (With a photo of the building site in 1980, several years after construction began.) www.telegram.com/article/20120909/news/109099723Also, the voters of Worcester rejected a referendum to have the city bond for the Centrum construction. The bond amount was substantially reduced a second referendum was held in September, 1977, and passed by 119 votes, out of 40,000+ votes cast. (I believe he referendums antedated Gavitt promoting his Big East conference idea.) masscases.com/cases/sjc/375/375mass218.html
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Post by hc87 on May 21, 2019 10:25:44 GMT -5
My guess is that Woo in general was trying to keep up with the other mid-sized NE cities Jones' (Prov, Hartford, Springfield etc) during that time, all who built 'civic centahs' around that period.
While the BE was still a gleam in Gavitt's eye in 1977, college basketball had been drawing good crowds at those arenas (PC in particular., as well as ECAC tournaments )...I'm guessing again that the people of Woo thought HC hoop would have been one of the draws for a new facility.
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Post by longsuffering on May 21, 2019 13:12:26 GMT -5
My guess is that Woo in general was trying to keep up with the other mid-sized NE cities Jones' (Prov, Hartford, Springfield etc) during that time, all who built 'civic centahs' around that period. While the BE was still a gleam in Gavitt's eye in 1977, college basketball had been drawing good crowds at those arenas (PC in particular., as well as ECAC tournaments )...I'm guessing again that the people of Woo thought HC hoop would have been one of the draws for a new facility. Good guess, it's how I recall it. I attended all of the Colonial Classics at Boston Garden - not sure if there was two of them but not more than three as I recall and the crowds were enthusiastic for the matchups between top New England teams and the games were exciting. Then everyone went their separate ways. Enter Lafayette. Perhaps not quite as welcome as when the original Lafayette landed in 1777.
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Post by rf1 on May 21, 2019 13:17:52 GMT -5
Just imagine what is in store with construction of the new baseball park on a brownfield site. I will right now predict it will not be ready for opening day in April 2021.
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Post by possum on May 21, 2019 16:28:27 GMT -5
rf better get your season tickets to the RI Rams now they'll be a hot commodity in 2021.
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Post by longsuffering on May 21, 2019 16:55:47 GMT -5
Rf1, What are the chances McCoy Stadium will be booked by a new team moving in and opening day for Woo (Woe?) Sox will be where the Red Sox and Ted Williams opened the 1939 season: Fitton Field?
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Post by rf1 on May 21, 2019 18:51:31 GMT -5
Rf1, What are the chances McCoy Stadium will be booked by a new team moving in and opening day for Woo (Woe?) Sox will be where the Red Sox and Ted Williams opened the 1939 season: Fitton Field? Pawtucket requested bids for use of McCoy Stadium that were recently made public. There were a number of proposals with two for baseball. The most interesting bid was for continued MLB affiliated baseball (AAA, AA, or A). Such a team would however require WooSox approval as they have territorial rights. While one might think this would be unlikely, the group behind this is headed by Mike Tamburro, a Pawsox minority owner and former decades long GM of the club. My take on this proposal is that Tamburro would not be advancing it unless confident that his WooSox ownership partners will allow a MLB affiliated team. There had been some previous rumors about a single A team possibly relocating to Pawtucket. Most attention was centered on the Batavia Muckdogs who had been taken over by the league as its ownership had financial issues. The team plays in an old park in a small market and it is thought the league is looking to sell the team and have it move to a place where it could succeed. Given Tamburro is involved, I think this could actually happen. Metro Providence would be one of, if not the, biggest markets without MLB baseball at any level. The market has a long track record of good support (more so before Lucchino and new stadium talk) with many components already in place (such as Corp sponsors). I could see Tamburro and some of the RI owners taking majority control of this new team. If this were all to come about, it would basically confirm my contention that residents of RI will not support the WooSox in big numbers. If WooSox owners really thought Rhode Islanders would continue to provide strong support and keep attending games once the team moved to Worcester, they would not allow another team in Pawtucket which might affect their draw. Another part of a rumored new team in Pawtucket had it also possibly being connected to the Boston Red Sox. The Lowell Spinners affiliation contract is coming up for renewal in the next year or two and some felt the new Pawtucket ownership team would try to use its BoSox ties (Lucchino, Tamburro, etc..) to get Red Sox affiliation transferred (Lowell would still exist but get whatever affiliation the new Pawtucket team had been). Some think the Boston Red Sox would rather have its minor league teams spread out in as many New England states as possible instead of having two others in its home state of Massachusetts.
The possibility of a MLB affiliated team with connections to the present Pawsox ownership moving to Pawtucket makes some sense in other regards as well. It would likely provide a backup insurance policy for a home to play in if my prediction of a new Worcester ballpark not being ready in April-2021 came true. Ownership would have much more leverage if it still had some stake in McCoy Stadium.
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Post by longsuffering on May 21, 2019 19:51:51 GMT -5
Makes excellent sense. The RI owners include Terry Murray, the former CEO of Fleet Bank as well as the former CEO of CVS if memory serves. You know they were very reluctant to abandon their home state but who could turn down the $100 million Worcester waved in their face? If organized baseball allows it, the ownership group for both franchises could be much the same and the unprecedented largesse Worcester lured them with could allow the group to spend freely to make the new Pawtucket Franchise a success. The end result would be "The Woo" mortgaging itself for thirty years to subsidize Pawtucket's team while publicly boasting how they outmaneuvered "The Bucket" (Pawtucket).
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Post by timholycross on May 21, 2019 20:10:40 GMT -5
My guess is that Woo in general was trying to keep up with the other mid-sized NE cities Jones' (Prov, Hartford, Springfield etc) during that time, all who built 'civic centahs' around that period. While the BE was still a gleam in Gavitt's eye in 1977, college basketball had been drawing good crowds at those arenas (PC in particular., as well as ECAC tournaments )...I'm guessing again that the people of Woo thought HC hoop would have been one of the draws for a new facility. Good guess, it's how I recall it. I attended all of the Colonial Classics at Boston Garden - not sure if there was two of them but not more than three as I recall and the crowds were enthusiastic for the matchups between top New England teams and the games were exciting. Then everyone went their separate ways. Enter Lafayette. Perhaps not quite as welcome as when the original Lafayette landed in 1777. I agree with your collective recollections. The Big East was not part of the centrum debate ...and when it was announced Holy Cross was not in it anyway.
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on May 21, 2019 20:19:27 GMT -5
First, whatever problems there were building the Centrum the venue has been very good for the city of Worcester, even with HC bailing out of the Big East. Second, Polar Park will be ready to go in April of 2021, and it will be a tremendous success. Third, the talk of an affiliated team going to the Bucket is nothing but talk. It will not happen. To those that think I’m wrong, I’ve been right about this issue the whole time. Worcester tried to get an affiliated team for years and Pawtucket and Rhode Island would not cooperate with Worcester. Payback will be sweet.
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on May 21, 2019 20:39:35 GMT -5
Just imagine what is in store with construction of the new baseball park on a brownfield site. I will right now predict it will not be ready for opening day in April 2021. You haven’t had one correct prediction on this issue. Keep on predicting. I predict I’ll be sipping on a cold beer at a Polar Park in April 2021. It will be like drinking rf1’s tears.
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Post by rf1 on May 21, 2019 21:22:46 GMT -5
First, whatever problems there were building the Centrum the venue has been very good for the city of Worcester, even with HC bailing out of the Big East. Second, Polar Park will be ready to go in April of 2021, and it will be a tremendous success. Third, the talk of an affiliated team going to the Bucket is nothing but talk. It will not happen. To those that think I’m wrong, I’ve been right about this issue the whole time. Worcester tried to get an affiliated team for years and Pawtucket and Rhode Island would not cooperate with Worcester. Payback will be sweet. Explain then why a CURRENT Pawsox owner is leading an effort to bring a MLB affiliated team to McCoy Stadium? Keep in mind that Pawtucket and Rhode Island DID NOT keep a team out of Worcester. It was Pawsox ownership that prevented it per their territory rights granted by MLB. Most ownership groups would never allow another entity to operate a team nearby in order to protect their own team. The new Pawtucket proposal however involves the same ownership. This is what makes this not as far fetched as it might first seem. Still lots of moving parts so nothing is a given.
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Post by longsuffering on May 21, 2019 21:40:29 GMT -5
I hope they coordinate with the MBTA as much as possible to allow folks from the populous East to take the train to Union Station, a shuttle to Polar Park and be assured of a train back home even if the game goes into extra innings. That would work especially well for weekend games when there aren't many commuters using the train. If Worcester got the farm team for Texas Rangers it wouldn't be that big of a deal, but Polar Park is surrounded by Red Sox fans. Even though Pawtucket might be equidistant with Worcester for Boston area fans, if you aren't going out of state it seems closer and more familiar. Plus you get the bumper sticker: "This car survived Kelley Square" for $9.95 at the ballpark.
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Post by rf1 on May 22, 2019 9:34:48 GMT -5
Just imagine what is in store with construction of the new baseball park on a brownfield site. I will right now predict it will not be ready for opening day in April 2021. You haven’t had one correct prediction on this issue. Keep on predicting. I predict I’ll be sipping on a cold beer at a Polar Park in April 2021. It will be like drinking rf1’s tears.
Here is a cautionary tale about new baseball park construction. Dunkin Donuts Park in nearby Hartford opened one full year later than initially planned. The team had to play ALL its home games on the road for an entire season. The building of the Centrum and the park in Hartford have me skeptical that Worcester will be playing in a new park not even yet as of now under construction in less than two years.
A Year of Missed Deadlines for Hartford's Ballpark Ends on Encouraging Note
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Post by timholycross on May 22, 2019 9:49:43 GMT -5
rf1 you probably have a better chance of being right about this than some things in the past. Lots of moving parts here- legal stuff, surprises (bad ones) on the site, weather, etc.
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Post by Wormtown Railers Fan on May 22, 2019 9:57:46 GMT -5
You haven’t had one correct prediction on this issue. Keep on predicting. I predict I’ll be sipping on a cold beer at a Polar Park in April 2021. It will be like drinking rf1’s tears.
Here is a cautionary tale about new baseball park construction. Dunkin Donuts Park in nearby Hartford opened one full year later than initially planned. The team had to play ALL its home games on the road for an entire season. The building of the Centrum and the park in Hartford have me skeptical that Worcester will be playing in a new park not even yet as of now under construction in less than two years.
A Year of Missed Deadlines for Hartford's Ballpark Ends on Encouraging Note
Sure, dummies like Larry Lucchino and Janet Marie Smith who have no experience designing and building ballparks will screw this up. I’m sure because there were construction delays building the Centrum 40 years ago means this project will suffer the same fate. Construction delays and cost overruns on this project would make you happy. All I can say is good luck to you. Enjoy the Atlantic League in 2021.
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Post by Tom on May 22, 2019 11:13:40 GMT -5
rf1 you probably have a better chance of being right about this than some things in the past. Lots of moving parts here- legal stuff, surprises (bad ones) on the site, weather, etc. One point that people seem to forget is that the park is going to be across the street from the actual Wyman-Gordon factory. I'm not sure how much any nasty stuff that got dumped seeps out horizontally. There might be fewer nasty surprises for the park than whatever hotel or what-not is going on top of where the old factory used to be ---------------------------------------------------------------- I am in the camp that the new ballpark construction will not meet the planned completion date. I say this from the cynical standpoint that you can't put an addition on your house or repair a highway on the original timetable. I don't think it will be the disaster the Centrum was, but it won't be on time
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Post by CHC8485 on May 22, 2019 11:46:18 GMT -5
I’d be very surprised if the state of any contamination on the site is not well known and understood. Soil contamination by oils and heavy metals is easy to deal with ... dig it out, typically haul it away for incineration, fill with clean soil. Ground water contamination by solvents, particularly chlorinated solvents a bit trickier and takes longer to treat. Either way the ownership of the treatment if known before transfer (rare for that to happen these days) typically stays with whomever caused it, if the entity still exists - even if it originated from an adjacent property. Regardless, I agree with Tom and expect there to be some delays in opening and while not ideal, fortunately less than 2 miles from the future Polar Park there is a 3000 seat ball park that could used in a pinch.
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Post by sader1970 on May 22, 2019 13:09:48 GMT -5
What exactly was your major, again?
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Post by CHC8485 on May 22, 2019 13:44:40 GMT -5
Chemistry.
I've been an Environmental Health & Safety "professional" for 30-ish years. Worked a bit with site clean-ups including short & long term remediation at various company owned sites. Also had some dabbling acquisition and divestiture of properties with various degrees of contamination in the last 5 years.
And since I opened that door ... Currently looking for "new opportunities" following a restructuring at my former employer this past March.
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Post by Tom on May 22, 2019 14:08:29 GMT -5
First of all, I believe that Wyman-Gordon met every environmental requirement under the law. That being said, I'm sure there were lots of things that were perfectly legal and commonplace in the late 19th century that wouldn't fly today.
How does the equation change if said corporate entity is happy to hold on to the property and would rather not sell than clean up. In this case, the city would have to take the property by eminent domain (assuming eminent domain isn't already in play)?
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Post by CHC8485 on May 22, 2019 16:01:57 GMT -5
Not sure how eminent domain would play into it, but as I said, in general, if you caused the contamination, you own the clean up.
And Wyman Gordon could have been 100% compliant with the law 50 years ago and if that practice led to contamination, WG owns the remediation. Was involved with situation like that at one prior employer.
Some states allow you to transfer liability of a known contamination to a buyer. In other states, New Jersey for example, you are not allowed to transfer that liability to a buyer, so you own the clean-up regardless of what the buyer wants to do. My prior company was responsible for a site in NJ where the business was sold and continued to operate with a new owner, but we periodically needed access to the site to perform work related to the clean-up.
At the end of the day, if the clean-up has to happen, the cost would be factored into the purchase agreement, sometimes in the form of a set-aside - we'll put $5 million for environmental clean-up into an escrow account and if clean-up costs less than that, the remainder goes to one of the parties involved. Where it gets difficult is when it costs more than that. All depends on the sales contract language.
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Post by hcgrad94 on May 22, 2019 18:17:07 GMT -5
Here is a cautionary tale about new baseball park construction. Dunkin Donuts Park in nearby Hartford opened one full year later than initially planned. The team had to play ALL its home games on the road for an entire season. The building of the Centrum and the park in Hartford have me skeptical that Worcester will be playing in a new park not even yet as of now under construction in less than two years.
A Year of Missed Deadlines for Hartford's Ballpark Ends on Encouraging Note
Sure, dummies like Larry Lucchino and Janet Marie Smith who have no experience designing and building ballparks will screw this up. I’m sure because there were construction delays building the Centrum 40 years ago means this project will suffer the same fate. Construction delays and cost overruns on this project would make you happy. All I can say is good luck to you. Enjoy the Atlantic League in 2021. All right Hamilton!
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Post by hc87 on May 22, 2019 22:18:39 GMT -5
Why, again, are you guys so worked up about AAA baseball???
Basically a level that has become a "way station" for either journeymen players or guys rehabbing an injury. I get it, cheapah than Fenway, but I doubt either Pawtucket or Worcester will consistently have bang up crowds moving forward.
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Post by timholycross on May 23, 2019 11:21:12 GMT -5
Why, again, are you guys so worked up about AAA baseball??? Basically a level that has become a "way station" for either journeymen players or guys rehabbing an injury. I get it, cheapah than Fenway, but I doubt either Pawtucket or Worcester will consistently have bang up crowds moving forward. You're right about that, if I had my druthers would rather Portland was moving to Worcester instead of Pawtucket.
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