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Post by bfoley82 on Sept 28, 2016 16:31:54 GMT -5
1. Ah yes, the money. It has to come from somewhere, or no go. Am I naive to think that HC wouldn't be applying to this league if that wasn't planned out? If they haven't, then everything else I've written is moot. .... 3. There is a big difference between driving from Storrs to Hartford vis-a-vis driving two miles from the hill parking lots to the DCU Center. 1.) Money I can find the money in ADNP's budget going forward. However, the cost of HE and scollie's for the woman consumes nearly all the available ADNP money. Which leaves 'Nada' for other sports; which leaves 'Nada' for football to bring it up to par with other PL schools. IMO, ADNP is not building a 400 foot long field house to support teams whose current spending level is at the bottom or the bottom half of the PL. He could have built a new rink for that money, and built up ice hockey.. 2. Expression of interest I have little doubt that there could have been informal inquiries from HE to HC about HC's potential interest, and HC could have similarly explored with HE whether HE might have an interest.. (Fr. B. inquired of his great friend Jack DeGioia whether there might be room in the NBE for HC, and was told, 'No' So such exploratory inquiries happen.) However, I have not seen any indication that HC actually applied to HE for men's hockey. ADNP did say in the T&G that HC was looking at HE, ECAC, and one other conference for the women, now that HC wasn't being allowed to continue the women in Div. III. My guess if there was any conversations between HC and HE, they centered on terms. Would HE waive the 4,000 seat on-campus venue requirement? Is there revenue-sharing? How much? From my perspective, playing at DCU is probably a non-starter financially for HC. On the old board when there were earlier HE & HC threads, I tried to calculate what the rental charge might be. I do recall that DCU event employees were receiving four hour or 8 hour minimum pay for event. An electrician might be paid $50 an hour, with an eight hour minimum. There were two 2 or 3 employees just for the videoboard. If it takes 30, 40, 50 DCU employees to staff an ice hockey event, that's a lot of money. Which is why DCU takes all / almost all the concession sales, and imposes a ticket surcharge. I think the Hart rink seating could feasibly be expanded to 2,500, by blowing out the west wall, and raising the roof. All new seating would go on the west side. But if HE insists on no less than 4,000, then you are talking a new rink. Reading the tea leaves, HE, a.) does not need HC as a conference member (And ND leaving saves on travel in a major way); b.) HE is unwilling to budge on the 4,000 minimum capacity. 3.) Student attendance. Students are away from campus or in exam period for perhaps a third of the season. It is difficult enough these days to get students to walk a few hundred yards to the Hart for hoops; I don't see them driving downtown. What are the parking rates at the garages near the DCU?. ___________________________________________________ Where does the money for athletics come from? For Division I-AAA private schools (no football) 2014(Would include Boston U, Providence, Quinnipiac, Northeastern) Ticket sales 5 percent NCAA and conference distributions 6 percent Guarantees and options 1 percent Cash contributions from alumni and others 7 percent Royalties, advertising, sponsorship 3 percent Other 3 percent (Total ^^^ generated revenue 24 percent) Support from the school (student tuition and fees) 76 percent _________________________________ Div I-AA Ice hockey (public and private schools)M generated revenue median $432,000 W generated revenue median $74,000 Median compensation M's head coach Basketball $254,000 Football $245,000 Ice Hockey $253,000 Div I-AAA ice hockey (public and private schools)M generated revenue median $718,000 W generated revenue median $99,000 Median compensation M's head coach Basketball $345,000 Ice Hockey $346,000 Out of those D-1AAA schools, Providence is the only big time basketball school that averaged 9700+ fans a night so that average compensation for a Men's HC is thrown way off with Cooley's contract which I believe is two million a season. I would argue that Northeastern hockey and hoops are on equal footing while we know it is clear that BU and Quinnipiac are hockey schools first.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 28, 2016 17:43:17 GMT -5
bfoley, the coaches' compensation is the median, not the mean. So Providence's compensation levels have no practical effect on the median.
There are nine Div IAAA schools playing ice hockey, so its easy to guess the median. To the left of the median are Boston U., Providence, University of Nebraska at Omaha, and probably either University of Denver or Northeastern.
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Post by bfoley82 on Sept 28, 2016 19:41:01 GMT -5
bfoley, the coaches' compensation is the median, not the mean. So Providence's compensation levels have no practical effect on the median. There are nine Div IAAA schools playing ice hockey, so its easy to guess the median. To the left of the median are Boston U., Providence, University of Nebraska at Omaha, and probably either University of Denver or Northeastern. Stop making me remember median and mean from my college stat classes :-)
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Post by sarasota on Sept 28, 2016 22:24:39 GMT -5
"median" means there are an equal number of values that are larger as are smaller. So it does not reflect the effect of outliers. "mean" means the average, which does reflect the effect of outliers.
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Post by bfoley82 on Sept 29, 2016 0:55:01 GMT -5
"median" means there are an equal number of values that are larger as are smaller. So it does not reflect the effect of outliers. "mean" means the average, which does reflect the effect of outliers. Oh I know but when you don't use those terms for a long time, your brain forgets! ;-)
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 29, 2016 6:18:13 GMT -5
bfoley, among MIT's open courseware is Introduction to Biology. I downloaded audio of some of the opening lectures to a Nano, and occasionally listen on a longer flight. It was nothing like what was taught in O'Neill in a bygone era.
From the course description: (I also put Khan Academy (free app) on my smartphone, so I'm regressing to the point of forgetting what I never knew.) ___________________ To bring this back to the nine I-AAA schools playing ice hockey, the remaining four which I guessed / know-for-sure are to the right of the median are Canisius, Niagara, Quinnipiac, and Vermont. Given the salary levels, football coaches would seem to be a dime a dozen, and good hockey coaches few and far between.
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Post by Ray on Sept 29, 2016 8:49:32 GMT -5
Between the city, the College, and the Railers, only two of those three entities are likely to exist in 2-3 years. Those two parties should get together and work this out.
I agree with the above sentiment that this isn't a done deal as much as it's public posturing.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Sept 29, 2016 9:16:47 GMT -5
The link below is to an oversized image of a venue with asymmetrical spectator seating. bostonlandingdevelopment.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/tf-offerings-1a-1.jpg^^^^ This is New Balance's proposed indoor track in Allston (Boston). Seating is supposed 10,000. To my eye, the roof slopes up to accommodate the asymmetrical seating. This indoor track is next to the new practice rink for the Bruins, and two new practice courts for the Celtics. That's a 200 meter track, similar to what would have been installed in the NFH before ADNP's re-design.
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Post by Tom on Oct 1, 2016 8:40:53 GMT -5
Between the city, the College, and the Railers, only two of those three entities are likely to exist in 2-3 years. Those two parties should get together and work this out. I agree with the above sentiment that this isn't a done deal as much as it's public posturing. The city should - and hopefully will - do what is best for the city. It is better for the city to have two tenants than to have one. That being said, the city also entered into a good faith agreement with the Railers. If the city wants to have any credibility going forward, it needs to keep its end of the bargain. The Railers might have contractual scheduling priority, but they have to spend half their time on the road. This should be doable even if the Railers don't cooperate.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Oct 1, 2016 9:50:28 GMT -5
Between the city, the College, and the Railers, only two of those three entities are likely to exist in 2-3 years. Those two parties should get together and work this out. I agree with the above sentiment that this isn't a done deal as much as it's public posturing. The city should - and hopefully will - do what is best for the city. Â It is better for the city to have two tenants than to have one. Â That being said, the city also entered into a good faith agreement with the Railers. Â If the city wants to have any credibility going forward, it needs to keep its end of the bargain. Â The Railers might have contractual scheduling priority, but they have to spend half their time on the road. Â This should be doable even if the Railers don't cooperate. Sadly I have little confidence in the Worcester politicians to do the right thing here. Tim Murray seems to have his fingers all over this and he is as big a hack as there is. My guess is he will do what is best for him and probably has already agreed to some backroom deal with this Railers owner. I would still love to know what Tim was doing driving a hundred miles an hour at stupid o'clock when he was the lieutenant governor.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Oct 1, 2016 10:28:25 GMT -5
The city should - and hopefully will - do what is best for the city. Â It is better for the city to have two tenants than to have one. Â That being said, the city also entered into a good faith agreement with the Railers. Â If the city wants to have any credibility going forward, it needs to keep its end of the bargain. Â The Railers might have contractual scheduling priority, but they have to spend half their time on the road. Â This should be doable even if the Railers don't cooperate. Sadly I have little confidence in the Worcester politicians to do the right thing here. Tim Murray seems to have his fingers all over this and he is as big a hack as there is. My guess is he will do what is best for him and probably has already agreed to some backroom deal with this Railers owner. I would still love to know what Tim was doing driving a hundred miles an hour at stupid o'clock when he was the lieutenant governor. Don't forget this useless knob was also in his pajamas when he wrecked his car on 190
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 1, 2016 11:01:59 GMT -5
Reminds me years ago when I was a claims adjuster of a doctor who wrecked his car hitting an "L" pillar in the Bronx at 2:00 am Christmas Eve. He said he was cut off by a phantom car, swerved and wrecked his Corvette. He claims to have been left for dead but 3 hours later some Good Samaritans found him and took him to the hospital. He was pretty injured, not life-threatening, but the whole thing sounded suspicious and one of the very few "No-Fault" exclusions was for driving impaired, so I asked him where he had been and where he was going. He said he was going home from - get this - "a house call" - from a patient who happened to be a single female. He claimed not to have any alcohol before the accident. So, I order the hospital report. Guess what? Alcohol blood test showed above limit and also said he was brought in to emergency by "friends." So, I take a follow up statement from him and he still denies drinking and says that the doctors at that hospital are "all foreigners and incompetent." We do more background and find that his medical degree was from Haiti or Santo Domingo (don't recall which). That shut him up about the incompetent doctors. Became obvious he tried to wait until the alcohol level in his blood declined to go to the hospital but didn't wait long enough. The police report showed he reported it 3 hours later to them from the hospital. I denied the claim, he screamed he would sue, take us to the Insurance Department, etc. He never did. He was on the assigned risk and could not be cancelled but subsequently had multiple "thefts" of his succeeding Corvettes and other sports cars. Sometimes while the paperwork was being processed, his "stolen" car was recovered undamaged by the police, usually a couple of blocks away from where it was stolen, but sometimes we paid off. We came to the conclusion he had a major drinking problem and would forget where he left his car. He'd report it stolen to the police and they acted as a lost and found. If not, he got a new car from the insurance company. I loved claims!! You can't make this stuff up.
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Post by timholycross on Oct 1, 2016 11:21:04 GMT -5
Putting aside whether HC wants to do this, HE actually wants HC, the costs involved, ad nauseum, it's clear to all this isn't happening w/o the DCU Center. There are enough weekend dates to go around unless there are other events going on there. The Railers have to play road games too, 50% of them I would think. Their regular season went to April 9 last year, nearly a month after college teams played their last home games.
Not 100% of HC's potential home games need to be on those days of the week either, more like 75-80%. Same for the Railers, they can't ALL be on weekends or they can't play 72 games So, if the parties really want to to this, it should be possible.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Oct 1, 2016 11:32:16 GMT -5
Putting aside whether HC wants to do this, HE actually wants HC, the costs involved, ad nauseum, it's clear to all this isn't happening w/o the DCU Center. There are enough weekend dates to go around unless there are other events going on there. The Railers have to play road games too, 50% of them I would think. Their regular season went to April 9 last year, nearly a month after college teams played their last home games. Not 100% of HC's potential home games need to be on those days of the week either, more like 75-80%. Same for the Railers, they can't ALL be on weekends or they can't play 72 games So, if the parties really want to to this, it should be possible. Correct. The issue is that the Railers do not want Holy Cross playing in hockey East. It will be fun to watch them fail in the next few years just like every other professional sports team in Worcester has over the last 25 years.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 1, 2016 12:38:35 GMT -5
This is BC's Conte schedule for HE games 2016-17.
Friday Providence Tuesday UNH Tuesday Northeastern Monday Boston U Friday UMass Tuesday UConn Saturday Notre Dame Friday Merrimack Friday Vermont Saturday Vermont (don't know why back-to-back home games against UVM, I'm guessing travel) Tuesday UMass Lowell March 3-5 HE tournament campus sites March 10-12 HE Quarterfinals campus sites
Clear bias toward games on Tuesday-Friday. The Saturday game against Notre Dame is probably dictated by ND's not wanting to travel on two class days. @ Noytre Dame is also a Saturday game. The Saturday Vermont game also appears to be travel-dictated. BC plays Maine back-to-back on a Friday-Saturday in Maine, so Vermont-Maine flip every other year.
I suspect Saturday is generally set-aside for basketball.
Merrimack's rink seats 2500, so I think if HE really wanted HC they would waive the 4,000 minimum seating capacity provision, and see if HC is willing to spend $10-12 million to provide another 1,100 seats at the Hart rink.. ___________________________________ Scheduling for the DCU is simple compared to scheduling for the XL Center, given that UConn also plays hoops there, as well as a Rangers affiliate. But apparently, the XL Center, deteriorated and decaying, is living on borrowed time, and the state is reluctant to spend $250 million or more to replace it.
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Post by sarasota on Oct 1, 2016 13:11:10 GMT -5
sader1970- Great story. I was in the ins biz as well. Your files were probably as comical as my asst county prosecutor brother's files. Insurance Adjuster and Prosecutor--those are the jobs where you see the underbelly of Real Life. Oh....and where I worked for a short time....the ER of Boston City Hospital.....the ER of any big city hospital.
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Post by bfoley82 on Oct 1, 2016 14:36:01 GMT -5
This is BC's Conte schedule for HE games 2016-17. Friday Providence Tuesday UNH Tuesday Northeastern Monday Boston U Friday UMass Tuesday UConn Saturday Notre Dame Friday Merrimack Friday Vermont Saturday Vermont (don't know why back-to-back home games against UVM, I'm guessing travel) Tuesday UMass Lowell March 3-5 HE tournament campus sites March 10-12 HE Quarterfinals campus sites Clear bias toward games on Tuesday-Friday. The Saturday game against Notre Dame is probably dictated by ND's not wanting to travel on two class days. @ Noytre Dame is also a Saturday game. The Saturday Vermont game also appears to be travel-dictated. BC plays Maine back-to-back on a Friday-Saturday in Maine, so Vermont-Maine flip every other year. I suspect Saturday is generally set-aside for basketball. Merrimack's rink seats 2500, so I think if HE really wanted HC they would waive the 4,000 minimum seating capacity provision, and see if HC is willing to spend $10-12 million to provide another 1,100 seats at the Hart rink.. ___________________________________ Scheduling for the DCU is simple compared to scheduling for the XL Center, given that UConn also plays hoops there, as well as a Rangers affiliate. But apparently, the XL Center, deteriorated and decaying, is living on borrowed time, and the state is reluctant to spend $250 million or more to replace it. Vermont plays several schools on the road or home back to back at the same place. The following year they flip the schedule. Vermont, Maine, UNH, and Notre Dame all have that same schedule when playing Providence. This year PC hosts Vermont and Maine for two games each and go to UNH and Notre Dame for two games each.
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Post by bfoley82 on Oct 1, 2016 14:46:58 GMT -5
This is BC's Conte schedule for HE games 2016-17. Friday Providence Tuesday UNH Tuesday Northeastern Monday Boston U Friday UMass Tuesday UConn Saturday Notre Dame Friday Merrimack Friday Vermont Saturday Vermont (don't know why back-to-back home games against UVM, I'm guessing travel) Tuesday UMass Lowell March 3-5 HE tournament campus sites March 10-12 HE Quarterfinals campus sites Clear bias toward games on Tuesday-Friday. The Saturday game against Notre Dame is probably dictated by ND's not wanting to travel on two class days. @ Noytre Dame is also a Saturday game. The Saturday Vermont game also appears to be travel-dictated. BC plays Maine back-to-back on a Friday-Saturday in Maine, so Vermont-Maine flip every other year. I suspect Saturday is generally set-aside for basketball. Merrimack's rink seats 2500, so I think if HE really wanted HC they would waive the 4,000 minimum seating capacity provision, and see if HC is willing to spend $10-12 million to provide another 1,100 seats at the Hart rink.. ___________________________________ Scheduling for the DCU is simple compared to scheduling for the XL Center, given that UConn also plays hoops there, as well as a Rangers affiliate. But apparently, the XL Center, deteriorated and decaying, is living on borrowed time, and the state is reluctant to spend $250 million or more to replace it. Providence only holds 2900 after the renovation according to the fire code sign in the building.
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Post by timholycross on Oct 1, 2016 20:25:37 GMT -5
Pretty clear the two teams could be accomodated date wise- but perhaps even more clear that at least one of them doesn't want that to happen.
Amazing how time flies. The former Hartford Civic Center is 40 or so years old- 37 years old if you count its reopening in 1979 after the roof collapsed in 1978. Shows you how badly some governments act to let it fall into disrepair. Especially with UConn basketball playing some games there and being so big.
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Post by rf1 on Oct 2, 2016 8:33:48 GMT -5
I don't think Holy Cross hockey would draw well at the DCU Center. It is far too big and HC hockey has little following. The school's most storied sport (hoops) cannot even draw people downtown. If the Crusaders Hockey team were to play at the DCU Center, you would have TWO hockey teams struggling to attract fans. The Worcester metro area has shown it has trouble supporting local sports teams.
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Post by hcgrad94 on Oct 2, 2016 8:54:42 GMT -5
I don't think Holy Cross hockey would draw well at the DCU Center. It is far too big and HC hockey has little following. The school's most storied sport (hoops) cannot even draw people downtown. If the Crusaders Hockey team were to play at the DCU Center, you would have TWO hockey teams struggling to attract fans. The Worcester metro area has shown it has trouble supporting local sports teams. With virtually every Hockey East opponent located within 70 miles, I would be surprised if we could not draw 2500 per night on average. That seems like a pretty conservative estimate and I would imagine that weekend games against schools like Boston College and Boston University would draw even better. The Railers will join the Bombardiers, Counts, Marauders, Ice Cats, Tornadoes and Sharks as failed Worcester professional teams within a few years. Holy Cross has been around for 173 years and will be here for centuries to come.
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Post by Tom on Oct 2, 2016 9:33:44 GMT -5
I don't think Holy Cross hockey would draw well at the DCU Center. It is far too big and HC hockey has little following. The school's most storied sport (hoops) cannot even draw people downtown. If the Crusaders Hockey team were to play at the DCU Center, you would have TWO hockey teams struggling to attract fans. The Worcester metro area has shown it has trouble supporting local sports teams.
One difference is that HC hockey will continue to exist even if there's a lack of local support
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Post by Tom on Oct 2, 2016 9:37:43 GMT -5
I don't think Holy Cross hockey would draw well at the DCU Center. It is far too big and HC hockey has little following. The school's most storied sport (hoops) cannot even draw people downtown. If the Crusaders Hockey team were to play at the DCU Center, you would have TWO hockey teams struggling to attract fans. The Worcester metro area has shown it has trouble supporting local sports teams. The Railers will join the Bombardiers, Counts, Marauders, Ice Cats, Tornadoes and Sharks as failed Worcester professional teams within a few years. Holy Cross has been around for 173 years and will be here for centuries to come. In all fairness, I don't think you can lump the IceCats or Sharks in with the others. A major factor in those moves was putting the team in the same time zone as the parent franchise
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Post by bfoley82 on Oct 2, 2016 10:42:00 GMT -5
The Railers will join the Bombardiers, Counts, Marauders, Ice Cats, Tornadoes and Sharks as failed Worcester professional teams within a few years. Holy Cross has been around for 173 years and will be here for centuries to come. In all fairness, I don't think you can lump the IceCats or Sharks in with the others. A major factor in those moves was putting the team in the same time zone as the parent franchise The Sharks averaged 3,857 in their final season which was eighth WORST in the league. The Icecats averaged 4,391 in their final season which was seventh WORST in the league. Yes, getting the affiliate into the same timezone was a key factor but it wasn't like the building was packed every night.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 2, 2016 12:06:14 GMT -5
Men's Ice Hockey average attendance 2015-16 Between 5,000 and 6,000 UMass Lowell UConn
Between 4,000 and 5,000 BC UNH Notre Dame BU
Between 3,000 and 4,000 Maine Vermont
Between 2,000 and 3,000 Providence 2980 (3705 undergrads) average basketball attendance in 2015-16 9703 UMass 2868 (20,551 undergrads) average basketball attendance 3365 Northeastern 2459 (13,492 undergrads) average basketball attendance 1786 Merrimack 2359 (2850 undergrads) average basketball attendance 337 ____________ Holy Cross 1060, average basketball attendance 1611
IMO, a belief that paid attendance for HC ice hockey in Worcester would surpass paid attendance for men's hoops is not grounded in current reality. HC's priorities when it comes to revenue sports are 1.) football, 2.) basketball. (Some would argue that basketball is a higher priority, but men's basketball, at the moment, has less total attendance than football. And HC spends more on football.) 3.) ice hockey. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only thing that HC has going for it with respect to HE membership is geographic proximity to the five Boston-centric schools that I view as calling the shots: BC, BU, Northeastern, Providence, and UNH. These five schools spent av average of $4.9M on M/W ice hockey in 2015-16. HC spent $1.8M. Has HC indicated it is willing to spend an additional $3 million on ice hockey to simply bring HC up to this average? How much would HC's rent for HE games at the DCU cost in addition to the $3 million? (All these five play on-campus.)
Rink-size at three schools other than HC within reasonable travel distance to the five schools listed surpa: RPI 5200 Quinnipiac 3100 Army 2750
(RIT 4300)
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