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Post by efg72 on May 17, 2020 20:13:26 GMT -5
How about apples to concrete ? I was going to say apples to tractor trailer trucks. Nelson has been on the job for 10 months, and inherited a significantly worse hand than Chesney. I think similar hands- Chesney was without a QB and Nelson was without a proven pg, albeit he might??? have run off one talented option
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Post by bringbackcaro on May 17, 2020 21:16:15 GMT -5
I was going to say apples to tractor trailer trucks. Nelson has been on the job for 10 months, and inherited a significantly worse hand than Chesney. I think similar hands- Chesney was without a QB and Nelson was without a proven pg, albeit he might??? have run off one talented option Again, apples and tractor trailer trucks. While results trailed off at the end of his tenure, Tom Gilmore had not checked out on the football program like Bill Carmody had with hoops. Those two guys could not be any more different. (Also, Chesney inherited Geoff Wade, a senior who had experience as a starting QB and turned out to be a 2nd team all-PL player is Chesney’s first year.)
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Post by hcnation on May 17, 2020 21:22:42 GMT -5
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Post by hchoops on May 17, 2020 21:44:51 GMT -5
That was incoming Easy Ed was alone outgoing
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Post by sader1970 on May 17, 2020 21:47:37 GMT -5
apples to oranges, apples to concrete trucks, apples to whatever.
I still maintain that using the inexact standard of other offers to recruits, Nelson's incoming Class and transfers still have a way to go to match Chesney's recruiting classes.
First, the condition of the program they inherited.
Nelson's predecessor, Carmody coached 4 seasons and had a 58-73 record for a 44.3% winning percentage. Chesney inherited a program the prior 4 years under TG had a 18-27 record for a 40.0% winning percentage. So, despite their radically different coaching styles, those were the results. Neither of the current coaches stepped into a program on the ascendancy. In his 2nd season, Chesney won a PL championship. Who thinks Nelson will? Chesney had to turn around a program of 90 players. Nelson's team is in the teens.
As for recruiting classes, based on posts here on Crossports:
First, BBC posted last year's recruits for Chesney: BBC:
Some offers for some of last year's commits (source: Twitter & Hero Sports):
Forrest: Princeton, Harvard, Brown, Fordham, Colgate UNH,
Kiessling: 8 MACs, (Miami U, Bowling Green, Ohio U, UMASS, Ball State, Akron, Buffalo), 2 IVYs (Columbia, Brown), Youngstown State, James Madison, Air Force
Dobbs: Michigan (PWO), Dartmouth, Brown, Youngstown State, Fordham, Lehigh,
Kreimer: Eastern Michigan, Akron, Elon, Fordham, Lafayette, 13 offers
McMurtrie: Temple, Old Dominion, Central Michigan, Buffalo, UMASS, Western Michigan, Cornell
Blessing: Ohio U, Kent State
Morris: Kent State, Army, 10 offers
Coulson: FIU, Air Force, 13 offers
You can readily see that many offers were from D-IA schools, Ivy League, always strong UNH (yes, we've beaten them in upsets). But that was last year. How are we doing this year?
Phreek:
Byron Shipman #2; Rutgers, 11 G5 offers, 6 FCS offers (Apparently, P5 schools are named; G5 are FBS conferences not in the P5)
Terence Spence #5: 5 FBS offers, 12 FCS offers
Quinton Gregory #16: 4 FBS, 3 FCS
Cross is back:
PATRIOT LEAGUE TOP 25 RECRUITS (AS OF NOV. 4)
NOTE: These high school recruits are ranked by how many other college options these commitments had, and who those offers came from. This is NOT using the star system from any of the recruiting services (never will).
RK FCS TEAM POS PROSPECT HOMETOWN OTHER D-1 OPTIONS
1 HOLY CROSS DB Terrence Spence Ringwood, NJ 5 FBS, 12 FCS offers
8 HOLY CROSS QB Hunter Helms Los Angeles, CA Liberty, Troy, 7 FCS offers
9 HOLY CROSS ATH Quinton Gregory Virginia Beach, VA 4 FBS, 3 FCS
13 HOLY CROSS OL Eric Schon Barrie, Canada 7 FCS offers
15 HOLY CROSS OL Luke Newman Bloomfield Hills, MI Lafayette, Navy, Valpo, WIU
16 HOLY CROSS LB Phoenix Dickson Linden, MI Air Force, Valpo, Cornell
17 HOLY CROSS WR Hunter Lane Georgetown, MA UNH, Maine, Fordham, Bryant
20 HOLY CROSS LB Joe Rivers Malden, MA UNH, Bryant, Brown, Gtown
Navy, Air Force, UNH, Southern Mississippi, Bowling Green, Kent State, IL and PL schools. Not sure I am seeing many basketball equivalent offers.
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Post by hchoops on May 17, 2020 22:24:35 GMT -5
Many good points But there are major differences the PL in football has 7 teams, 6 PL games The PL in hoops has 10 teams,18 PL games You imply that football recruiting is more difficult because there are more players. I think hoops is more challenging because there are fewer. You point out that Carmody’s. Winning % was higher than Gilmore’s over the same years and in their last season. But which coach had the better talent to compete with, esp after Grandison and Green transferred before Nelson had a chance to re-recruit them ? And by the time Nelson got the job in early July it was too late to recruit real talent. Many differences. Apples to concrete.
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Post by bringbackcaro on May 17, 2020 22:28:37 GMT -5
apples to oranges, apples to concrete trucks, apples to whatever. I still maintain that using the inexact standard of other offers to recruits, Nelson's incoming Class and transfers still have a way to go to match Chesney's recruiting classes. ....... You’re trying to compare recruits using Chesney’s classes when he had full recruiting cycles versus Nelson getting hired in July and having to turn his first four scholarships around in October/November. Nelson’s first batch of recruits (both in the spring and fall) is impressive, and I am only expecting that to improve going forward. —— If you really want to make the football vs basketball comparison, what Tom Gilmore inherited at HC is a helluva lot closer to what Nelson inherited than Chesney’s situation. -1 winning season in previous 8 years (ditto for Nelson) -.403 winning percentage for previous head coach (.443 for Nelson) -.375 PL winning percentage for previous head coach (.389 for Nelson) -last place PL finish the seasons before Gilmore’s arrival (ditto for Nelson) Gilmore initiated a major culture shift that causes roster turnover, and was 3-8 (1-5) in his first year. He then doubled that win total in Year 2 and reeled off 7 straight seasons above .500
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Post by sader1970 on May 18, 2020 4:56:08 GMT -5
Are not Nelson's recruits this year (coming in this fall) with a full year of recruiting? I'm not looking at his recruits in his shortened tenure last season when he took over and got or retained mostly Carmody recruits.
All of this is a long way around saying that while I hope he and the players he brings in are successful, they haven't played a game yet (except the transfers) on the college level and people are thrilled yet I see no equivalency to the offers that Chesney has been bringing in every year with his recruits.
There was much doubt that Chesney could recruit well on our level which he seems to have been dispelled. Show me that Nelson's recruits are on a par with other basketball offers on a par with Chesney's guys having offers from Air Force, Navy, the Ivies, UNH, etc. Chesney has been getting two and three star recruits. Nelson?
Ratchet down the enthusiasm on these incoming basketball players until they start playing and winning games. Stop maligning the guys who left as a bunch of incompetent disloyal boobs. We don't know their stories but we do know there are a lot of them.
How many years does Nelson get to erase the stink of last season? Does he get the proverbial HC70 "5 years to get his own guys?"
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Post by sader1970 on May 18, 2020 5:48:45 GMT -5
Will we have in this incoming basketball recruiting class, the likes of Dobbs or Asante on the football team? Hopefully. And as I've said before, I'll be happy to jump back on the Nelson bandwagon (and as I've said before, I was an enthusiastic supporter but 3-29 and loss to D-3 team and wholesale player losses ejected me off his bandwagon) if/when he shows he can succeed. So far, he hasn't. Maybe his first full year of recruiting will be significant and even better in succeeding years. I have my fingers crossed but I just haven't seen him beating out some high level competitors for recruits. . . . . yet. And we sure haven't seen that he can be a good game coach yet with results to match.
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Post by bringbackcaro on May 18, 2020 6:29:36 GMT -5
Are not Nelson's recruits this year (coming in this fall) with a full year of recruiting? I'm not looking at his recruits in his shortened tenure last season when he took over and got or retained mostly Carmody recruits. NOThe D1 recruiting cycle begins well before July of recruits senior year (when Nelson was hired). This would be like trying to penalize Chesney for the first class he signed when he was hired a day or two before the new early signing period. And I don’t think anyone is trying to claim that Nelson’s first class is the best thing since the Fab Five or should be compared to Duke & Kentucky. But based on offers, positional balance, amateur highlight tape review, etc. etc. this class is a significant upgrade over what the previous regime. Of course that doesn’t mean anything if the players can’t actually perform, but it’s all we have to go off right now.
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Post by sader1970 on May 18, 2020 6:35:46 GMT -5
“Of course that doesn’t mean anything if the players can’t actually perform, but it’s all we have to go off right now.”
As the side view mirrors say “objects may be closer than they appear.”
Let’s see how they perform.
I’m done with this subject.
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Post by bringbackcaro on May 18, 2020 6:38:01 GMT -5
Will we have in this incoming basketball recruiting class, the likes of Dobbs or Asante on the football team? Hopefully. And as I've said before, I'll be happy to jump back on the Nelson bandwagon (and as I've said before, I was an enthusiastic supporter but 3-29 and loss to D-3 team and wholesale player losses ejected me off his bandwagon) if/when he shows he can succeed. So far, he hasn't. Maybe his first full year of recruiting will be significant and even better in succeeding years. I have my fingers crossed but I just haven't seen him beating out some high level competitors for recruits. . . . . yet. And we sure haven't seen that he can be a good game coach yet with results to match. Holy moly. If you really want to keep comparing Nelson’s recruits to-date with Chesney, this Spring signing period would be your Chesney benchmark, not the Dobbs/Asante/etc. class when Chesney has a full recruiting cycle. goholycross.com/news/2018/2/7/211696433.aspxChesney’s first full recruiting class was a significant upgrade over this one, just as I expect Nelson’s first recruiting class with a full cycle to also be an upgrade.
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Post by efg72 on May 18, 2020 10:32:37 GMT -5
I think similar hands- Chesney was without a QB and Nelson was without a proven pg, albeit he might??? have run off one talented option Again, apples and tractor trailer trucks. While results trailed off at the end of his tenure, Tom Gilmore had not checked out on the football program like Bill Carmody had with hoops. Those two guys could not be any more different. (Also, Chesney inherited Geoff Wade, a senior who had experience as a starting QB and turned out to be a 2nd team all-PL player is Chesney’s first year.) You live in your own world of believing your view is the only view hard to have a conversation with such a brilliant person who never listens to other possibilities, but spins any information he/she can to fit their narrative. Politics is in your future! If you want to say Wade, then accept Lowder. Since we don’t know the story, behind his departure, it is fair to say he is a talented pg. chesney benefitted from Wade, Nelson did not benefit from Lowder for whatever reason nelson is not Carmody, and Carmody is not Nelson— they are two different personalities and two different philosophies of the game your feelings about Carmody are what they are and that is fine. the focus should be on Nelson and what he is doing to make this program successful. so far he could have a very solid group of recruits, we can use an upgrade so a positive result if players deliver he gave HC the worst record in the history of the basketball program for whatever excuse you want to use, he didn’t bring the school or local community out to support the team for whatever excuse you want to use He didn't offer a better product by the end of the season, for whatever excuse you want to provide He didn’t manage the roster for whatever excuse you want use or if he did this intentionally, it was designed to run off the players he didn’t want in the future. He was an ineffective game coach, for whatever excuse you want to provide just a sampling, but not too late for him to grow and develop as a coach. we all want Nelson to be a great success, make HC basketball exciting and relevant to the world of basketball, compete for championships, and of course PROVE BBC to be RIGHT because he thinks he is anyway
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Post by HC92 on May 18, 2020 10:59:49 GMT -5
This thread made me think about the amazing job Chesney has done. In the 6 seasons prior to his arrival, we were 13-23 in PL play and never better than 3-3. In Chesney’s two seasons, we are 9-3 in the PL. With better recruiting, we should continue to do well but the other PL schools are also stepping up their recruiting games. Should be a fun next few years.
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Post by HC92 on May 18, 2020 12:36:04 GMT -5
Here are the offers to our scholarship (or possible scholarship) players who have departed since Nelson's hiring. Same criteria as before. Verbalcommits.com is the source. Made no judgments as to which offers may have been open or closed at the time of signing and did not fact check with other sources.
Green - UNH, Stony Brook, Brown, Chattanooga, Loyola, Lafayette Grandison- None Pridgen - Binghamton, Brown, Hartford, Towson Lowder - Toledo, E. Michigan, C. Michigan, Ferris St., N. Illinois Sandy - None Verbeek - None Hargis - Lafayette, American, Colgate Connor Niego - Winthrop, Green Bay, Evansville Kyle Copeland - Mount St. Mary's, High Point, St. Francis (PA), American, Quinnipiac, Stetson
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Post by HCFC45 on May 18, 2020 12:50:16 GMT -5
Here are the offers to our scholarship (or possible scholarship) players who have departed since Nelson's hiring. Same criteria as before. Verbalcommits.com is the source. Made no judgments as to which offers may have been open or closed at the time of signing and did not fact check with other sources. Green - UNH, Stony Brook, Brown, Chattanooga, Loyola, Lafayette Grandison- None Pridgen - Binghamton, Brown, Hartford, Towson Lowder - Toledo, E. Michigan, C. Michigan, Ferris St., N. Illinois Sandy - None Verbeek - None Hargis - Lafayette, American, Colgate Connor Niego - Winthrop, Green Bay, Evansville Kyle Copeland - Mount St. Mary's, High Point, St. Francis (PA), American, Quinnipiac, Stetson God save us if Hargis and Copeland both end up at American! The number of posts that would generate would most certainly overwhelm the Crossposts server! !
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Post by HC92 on May 18, 2020 12:59:55 GMT -5
Here are the offers to our scholarship (or possible scholarship) players who have departed since Nelson's hiring. Same criteria as before. Verbalcommits.com is the source. Made no judgments as to which offers may have been open or closed at the time of signing and did not fact check with other sources. Green - UNH, Stony Brook, Brown, Chattanooga, Loyola, Lafayette Grandison- None Pridgen - Binghamton, Brown, Hartford, Towson Lowder - Toledo, E. Michigan, C. Michigan, Ferris St., N. Illinois Sandy - None Verbeek - None Hargis - Lafayette, American, Colgate Connor Niego - Winthrop, Green Bay, Evansville Kyle Copeland - Mount St. Mary's, High Point, St. Francis (PA), American, Quinnipiac, Stetson God save us if Hargis and Copeland both end up at American! The number of posts that would generate would most certainly overwhelm the Crossposts server! ! To be clear, these were their offers out of high school. And Hargis has already committed to St. Francis (PA) so we're safe there. None of the uncommitted guys has a reported offer from anywhere else. But, those tend not to be reported. It's kind of like a second wedding. You don't make as big a deal out of it as the first one (or at least that's what I'm told by others who weren't as fortunate as me with their first choice of spouse).
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Post by hchoops on May 18, 2020 13:04:00 GMT -5
Copeland was AU’s top recruit out of HS.
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Post by hchoops on May 18, 2020 13:06:12 GMT -5
God save us if Hargis and Copeland both end up at American! The number of posts that would generate would most certainly overwhelm the Crossposts server! ! To be clear, these were their offers out of high school. And Hargis has already committed to St. Francis Brooklyn Hargis has committed to St. Francis of Pa
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Post by dharry13 on May 18, 2020 13:09:15 GMT -5
Sorry if I'm late to the game on this. Pridgen to UNC Wilmington?
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Post by hchoops on May 18, 2020 13:09:53 GMT -5
Yes
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Post by HCFC45 on May 18, 2020 13:52:02 GMT -5
God save us if Hargis and Copeland both end up at American! The number of posts that would generate would most certainly overwhelm the Crossposts server! ! To be clear, these were their offers out of high school. And Hargis has already committed to St. Francis Brooklyn so we're safe there. None of the uncommitted guys has a reported offer from anywhere else. But, those tend not to be reported. It's kind of like a second wedding. You don't make as big a deal out of it as the first one (or at least that's what I'm told by others who weren't as fortunate as me with their first choice of spouse). My bad, must of had a brain cramp! Misread it and thought that American was offering them this time around! ! Think I'll stick to watching the Prior webcam!
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Post by timholycross on May 18, 2020 14:55:13 GMT -5
A brain cramp's ok- as long as it's not some Covid-19 symptom!
Glad you checked in, hadn't seen your posts in a while. Stay well.
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Post by longsuffering on May 18, 2020 22:21:09 GMT -5
Grandy used HC as a stepping stone to go from no other offers out of Prep School to the Big Ten. That progression didn't do anything to tamp down the jailbreak that occurred after he and Green transferred last summer.
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