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Post by nycrusader2010 on Oct 24, 2022 8:59:28 GMT -5
HC is still a college (no grad schools) with limited summer programs. That complicates what many of you are proposing. In fact, the second you allow that league-wide, several schools, none of them in Worcester; have a built-in advantage. Very true. A certain school in the Bronx would be more likely to benefit due to its plethora of excellent grad programs. However, a rising tide lifts all boats. The lack of HC grad programs didn't stop 16 5th years from returning this year. Of course, many years those with the extra year available, medical or non, could definitely opt for the Foley/RJ Evans route.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 24, 2022 9:23:59 GMT -5
HC is still a college (no grad schools) with limited summer programs. That complicates what many of you are proposing. In fact, the second you allow that league-wide, several schools, none of them in Worcester; have a built-in advantage. Very true. A certain school in the Bronx would be more likely to benefit due to its plethora of excellent grad programs. However, a rising tide lifts all boats. The lack of HC grad programs didn't stop 16 5th years from returning this year. Of course, many years those with the extra year available, medical or non, could definitely opt for the Foley/RJ Evans route. I assume everyone is aware that if a kid graduates from HC and saw game action over just three years he can use a retroactive ‘red shirt’ and play elsewhere for a year. (Actually if he plays in less than 5 games, that year doesn’t count towards filling eligibility). That has nothing to do with PL/HC and their non medical redshirt restriction. That is precisely why Connor Degenhardt is still playing QB at New Haven.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Oct 24, 2022 9:52:21 GMT -5
Don't be surprised if Sgarlata is also cut loose at Georgetown. While he's coaching with a hand tied behind his back, eight years of sub .500 football and a 9-35 PL record might finally be enough to give someone else a shot. I would be surprised. Coaching isn't the issue--Bob Benson won five PL games in five seasons. Kevin Kelly won four PL games in 2011 and a combined five in the other seven. The PL's restrictions on Sgarlata's ability to recruit and admit leaves Georgetown with players that are usually too small and too slow to hold up against lower level FCS teams, never mind an Ohio or a Buffalo, which is one reason it's allowing 47 points a game in its last five. Bob Chesney might not get three wins a year in Washington with numbers like those. Absent one or more of these three changes, the Georgetown trajectory doesn't change. 1. Being able to recruit outside the Index; 2. An admissions waiver to competitively admit up to five players a year outside the Index; or finally, 3. Withdraw from the PL and join the NEC. The PL is interested in none of these, because they don't care.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 24, 2022 9:56:34 GMT -5
/\ Pioneer or NEC?
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Post by DFW HOYA on Oct 24, 2022 10:09:37 GMT -5
NEC, for reasons described before. Georgetown's administration has no interest in another airplane conference.
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Post by HC92 on Oct 24, 2022 10:13:35 GMT -5
If we want to be competitive with all of the Dakota schools, etc, in FCS, don’t we also need to increase the number of football scholarships (and a corresponding number on the women’s side)? Managing a roster with 5th years becomes a little easier with the extra 3 scholarships.
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Post by mm67 on Oct 24, 2022 10:50:16 GMT -5
The obvious complication for HC is that it is a small, undergraduate only, academics first college. Our choices in athletics are rooted in the underlying philosophy which guides the college. In my time we were never truly competitive with the big time programs Penn State & Syracuse. And, that was OK. Don't know anyone who lost any sleep with the cessation of these games. Now that the football program is having some success, fleeting perhaps, one cannot seriously expect HC to abandon its policies and slide down the slippery slope of emphasized athletics at the FCS level. (No need to explain.) Quite simply HC will not allow the tail to wag the dog. The PL which HC helped establish is a perfect fit as it is. It redounds to the benefit of HC in many ways.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 24, 2022 11:04:06 GMT -5
If we want to be competitive with all of the Dakota schools, etc, in FCS, don’t we also need to increase the number of football scholarships (and a corresponding number on the women’s side)? Managing a roster with 5th years becomes a little easier with the extra 3 scholarships. Well, with the schollie size we have now (about 14 are 5th-year students) we’re at #8 in the Coaches Poll. Ahead of all the CAA teams and two notches above Montana. So we might have found our formula for success at/near the top of the FCS. (And obviously our academic reputation is not nosediving as part of this wise formula).
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Post by mm67 on Oct 24, 2022 11:16:06 GMT -5
While reputation is an important consideration it is not primary. HC's choices are about much more than reputation as conceived in popular magazines. The school has stuck to its underlying academic philosophy for decades Expect HC will continue to do so.. One should never allow the opinions of others to control ones behavior, no? Peace.
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Post by longsuffering on Oct 24, 2022 11:48:57 GMT -5
Very true. A certain school in the Bronx would be more likely to benefit due to its plethora of excellent grad programs. However, a rising tide lifts all boats. The lack of HC grad programs didn't stop 16 5th years from returning this year. Of course, many years those with the extra year available, medical or non, could definitely opt for the Foley/RJ Evans route. I assume everyone is aware that if a kid graduates from HC and saw game action over just three years he can use a retroactive ‘red shirt’ and play elsewhere for a year. (Actually if he plays in less than 5 games, that year doesn’t count towards filling eligibility). That has nothing to do with PL/HC and their non medical redshirt restriction. That is precisely why Connor Degenhardt is still playing QB at New Haven. Would Dobbs have two years of eligibility as a grad student if he chose to graduate from HC in May and not try out for the NFL? I have no criticism of any choice he or other HC seniors eligible to graduate make. It's a credit to Coach Chesney anytime a student athlete chooses to delay the rest of their life a year or half a year because they get so much value from HC football.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 24, 2022 14:54:54 GMT -5
Re: Ivies. That's not true. M y nephew medically red-shirted a year at an Ivy/ Other members of his team also red-shirted. As at HC, medically red-shirting is easier if the sport is, in essence, a one-semester sport, like football. As it was, he was injured in a game intra-semester, so sat spring semester. And picked up that spring semester subsequently. (He attended two commencements, one for his original class, and the second for the class he actually graduated with. Anything for a party.) The Ivies do not have fifth years on their rosters as graduate students. Eight semesters and you're done. You are not describing a medical redshirt when you describe your nephew’s actions in withdrawing from his school and then returning. (The reason why he withdrew from school is because they do NOT have redshirts, medical or otherwise.) This has been explained many times on Crossports. This oldie may help: sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaab-the-dagger/archaic-ivy-league-rule-leads-columbia-star-to-drop-out-of-school-142350338.html Or more recently: www.si.com/.amp/college/2020/04/02/ivy-league-reject-extended-eligibility-fifth-year-athletes “ The league requires athletes to use their eligibility during the first four years of their enrollment and doesn't allow medical redshirts. ” The Sports Illustrated citation basically refers to the COVID fifth years allowed by the NCAA. The Ivy League does not allow its athletes to take a COVID fifth year even as a graduate student in the same institution. That's why a former Dartmouth football player is on the University of Buffalo roster, and a former Harvard football player is on the Villanova roster, listed as a graduate student. (10-11 players on the Villanova roster are graduate students, about half coming from other schools. There are 7-8 redshirts, in the traditional sense, on the Villanova roster.) The Yahoo article has a non-working link that supposedly describes the Ivy League policy with respect to the equivalent of a medical red-shirt, --which is no different than Holy Cross' policy. All students, including athletes, have five years to complete the required eight semesters. Ng did not find a new home for his fifth (COVID) year in the transfer portal, withdrew from the spring semester (you may recall posters checking commencement programs for his name) and is finishing the last of the HC required eight semesters this fall to secure his degree. In the case of my nephew, in his senior year, he was injured in a game in New York in early January, IIRC. He enrolled for and began the spring semester, and was rostered on the team for that semester, but simply was physically unable to play. He withdrew from school to preserve one semester of eligibility, spent much of the following fall semester at the U of Texas at Austin working out (as a non-student) to get his conditioning back, and then enrolled for the spring semester (the final, eighth semester). The Yahoo article references the Harvard basketball players ensnared in a cheating scandal, and who withdrew from the university for two semesters to preserve those semesters of athletic eligibility. .
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Post by bfoley82 on Oct 24, 2022 15:50:25 GMT -5
The Sports Illustrated citation basically refers to the COVID fifth years allowed by the NCAA. The Ivy League does not allow its athletes to take a COVID fifth year even as a graduate student in the same institution. That's why a former Dartmouth football player is on the University of Buffalo roster, and a former Harvard football player is on the Villanova roster, listed as a graduate student. (10-11 players on the Villanova roster are graduate students, about half coming from other schools. There are 7-8 redshirts, in the traditional sense, on the Villanova roster.) The Yahoo article has a non-working link that supposedly describes the Ivy League policy with respect to the equivalent of a medical red-shirt, --which is no different than Holy Cross' policy. All students, including athletes, have five years to complete the required eight semesters. Ng did not find a new home for his fifth (COVID) year in the transfer portal, withdrew from the spring semester (you may recall posters checking commencement programs for his name) and is finishing the last of the HC required eight semesters this fall to secure his degree. In the case of my nephew, in his senior year, he was injured in a game in New York in early January, IIRC. He enrolled for and began the spring semester, and was rostered on the team for that semester, but simply was physically unable to play. He withdrew from school to preserve one semester of eligibility, spent much of the following fall semester at the U of Texas at Austin working out (as a non-student) to get his conditioning back, and then enrolled for the spring semester (the final, eighth semester). The Yahoo article references the Harvard basketball players ensnared in a cheating scandal, and who withdrew from the university for two semesters to preserve those semesters of athletic eligibility. The first article focuses on the Columbia basketball player who had to withdraw from the school to retain eligibility because, as is well known, Ivy League schools do not permit redshirting. Abbey Hsu withdrew from Columbia in 2020-2021 due to the pandemic and is only a junior this year. Actually think the majority of their WBB squad withdrew. gocolumbialions.com/sports/womens-basketball/roster/abbey-hsu/17723
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Post by mm67 on Oct 24, 2022 16:22:55 GMT -5
Let's cut to the chase. There is a fundamental underlying disagreement about the role of athletics/academics at HC. There is an echo chamber of some few on this board who want to upend current HC/PL policy and want to take steps build stronger teams - larger rosters, non-medical redshirting inevitably leading to ?.Clearly their focus is athletics. God Bless 'em. There are others who want to maintain the current policies which are more restrained. They have a far different conception of the role of athletics. Redshirting, larger rosters, moving to higher level competition and whatever comes next are out of the questio Expect the B of T & administration will continue to follow the correct path.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 24, 2022 16:25:06 GMT -5
The Sports Illustrated citation basically refers to the COVID fifth years allowed by the NCAA. The Ivy League does not allow its athletes to take a COVID fifth year even as a graduate student in the same institution. That's why a former Dartmouth football player is on the University of Buffalo roster, and a former Harvard football player is on the Villanova roster, listed as a graduate student. (10-11 players on the Villanova roster are graduate students, about half coming from other schools. There are 7-8 redshirts, in the traditional sense, on the Villanova roster.) The Yahoo article has a non-working link that supposedly describes the Ivy League policy with respect to the equivalent of a medical red-shirt, --which is no different than Holy Cross' policy. All students, including athletes, have five years to complete the required eight semesters. Ng did not find a new home for his fifth (COVID) year in the transfer portal, withdrew from the spring semester (you may recall posters checking commencement programs for his name) and is finishing the last of the HC required eight semesters this fall to secure his degree. In the case of my nephew, in his senior year, he was injured in a game in New York in early January, IIRC. He enrolled for and began the spring semester, and was rostered on the team for that semester, but simply was physically unable to play. He withdrew from school to preserve one semester of eligibility, spent much of the following fall semester at the U of Texas at Austin working out (as a non-student) to get his conditioning back, and then enrolled for the spring semester (the final, eighth semester). The Yahoo article references the Harvard basketball players ensnared in a cheating scandal, and who withdrew from the university for two semesters to preserve those semesters of athletic eligibility. The first article focuses on the injured Columbia basketball player who had to withdraw from the school to retain eligibility because, as is well known, Ivy League schools do not permit redshirting (medical and otherwise). The Ivy League allows for a fifth year waiver for injured athletes, in effect a medical red shirt. Brown University www.thecrimson.com/article/2014/11/20/playing-with-the-rules/^^^ Interesting article on how the IL circumvents the traditional redshirt, but not the medical redshirt. No senior on Yale's NCAA championship hockey team was younger than 23. Cornell wrestlers attend a community college in Ithaca for two years, and then ten transfer and wrestle for Cornell for three years, using up their five years of NCAA eligibility. Matt Sluka did a PG year at Peddie, which can be seen as an equivalent of a red-shirt year.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Oct 24, 2022 16:35:45 GMT -5
Let's cut to the chase. There is a fundamental underlying disagreement about the role of athletics/academics at HC. There is an echo chamber of some few on this board who want to upend current HC/PL policy and want to take steps build stronger teams - larger rosters, non-medical redshirting inevitably leading to ?.Clearly their focus is athletics. God Bless 'em. There are others who want to maintain the current policies which are more restrained. They have a far different conception of the role of athletics. Redshirting, larger rosters, moving to higher level competition and whatever comes next are out of the questio Expect the B of T & administration will continue to follow the correct path. You’re equating non-medical redshirts and added scholarships with lesser academics. I think there’s a misconception that a nationally ranked football program must mean that academics are taking a back seat. That doesn’t have to be true. I’ve yet to see Villanova’s or Richmond’s academic reputation take a hit in the CAA. After the season is over, let’s see if any of the HC players are flunking classes, not graduating, etc.
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Post by efg72 on Oct 24, 2022 17:07:12 GMT -5
Let's cut to the chase. There is a fundamental underlying disagreement about the role of athletics/academics at HC. There is an echo chamber of some few on this board who want to upend current HC/PL policy and want to take steps build stronger teams - larger rosters, non-medical redshirting inevitably leading to ?.Clearly their focus is athletics. God Bless 'em. There are others who want to maintain the current policies which are more restrained. They have a far different conception of the role of athletics. Redshirting, larger rosters, moving to higher level competition and whatever comes next are out of the questio Expect the B of T & administration will continue to follow the correct path. I am one who favors a move as I firmly believe it is in the best interest of our special institution Not to minimize the importance and seriousness of the conversation, but we can walk and chew gum at the same time. Our academic reputation has suffered, the product has not grown, and we are searching for the right solution for the next century Mind, Body and Soul The Body/Athletics is the connective tissue Planning to lobby the BOT as hard as I can for the appropriate adjustments- not changes just a few adjustments We all love Holy Cross otherwise we wouldn't spend precious moments on Crossports ✝️✝️😇😇✝️✝️✝️🏈🏀⚾️🏉⚽️🎾🏒🥍🏑🤼🏊♀️🥎🚣♀️🍀🍀🍀 God bless all opinions- nobody right and nobody wrong
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Post by JRGNYR on Oct 24, 2022 17:38:36 GMT -5
If we want to be competitive with all of the Dakota schools, etc, in FCS, don’t we also need to increase the number of football scholarships (and a corresponding number on the women’s side)? Managing a roster with 5th years becomes a little easier with the extra 3 scholarships. And increase the roster cap. I think it’s 90 now. The league really hamstrings its depth with the cap and not going to 63 scholarships.
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Post by mm67 on Oct 24, 2022 18:02:21 GMT -5
Let's cut to the chase. There is a fundamental underlying disagreement about the role of athletics/academics at HC. There is an echo chamber of some few on this board who want to upend current HC/PL policy and want to take steps build stronger teams - larger rosters, non-medical redshirting inevitably leading to ?.Clearly their focus is athletics. God Bless 'em. There are others who want to maintain the current policies which are more restrained. They have a far different conception of the role of athletics. Redshirting, larger rosters, moving to higher level competition and whatever comes next are out of the questio Expect the B of T & administration will continue to follow the correct path. You’re equating non-medical redshirts and added scholarships with lesser academics. I think there’s a misconception that a nationally ranked football program must mean that academics are taking a back seat. That doesn’t have to be true. I’ve yet to see Villanova’s or Richmond’s academic reputation take a hit in the CAA. After the season is over, let’s see if any of the HC players are flunking classes, not graduating, etc. Actually, it is far more than academics. It has to do with the role of athletics at HC. It is the degree of emphasis. Are we going to adopt policies which would fundamentally change athletic policies? Doubt it. HC has years of restricting athletics in its history. Why would want to adopt larger rosters, redshirting more emphasis & money on recruiting? To win football/b-bll games? To what end? Win or lose on the field or court HC always wins. As to academics...Reputation as reported in popular magazines is not the end all and be all nor is it an accurate gauge of the level of academic integrity at a college.. There are more fundamental issues of philosophy. For instance the PL is not imposing the AI on HC. The AI is merely a reflection of HC policy promulgated in the early '50's. At that time HC joined with the IL in stating that its student athletes are representative academically of the student body. Stanford openly states it has different/lower standards for admission for its athletes. Friends have told me ND does the same. I admire both schools.I do not know about Richmond but based on its history Villanova & others do the same and accept athletes who would never get past the front gate at HC. In fact some have complained about Admissions at HC. It would surprise me if the PL adopted the changes suggested by some. Alums of good will can disagree. Peace.
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Post by longsuffering on Oct 24, 2022 18:10:47 GMT -5
Let's cut to the chase. There is a fundamental underlying disagreement about the role of athletics/academics at HC. There is an echo chamber of some few on this board who want to upend current HC/PL policy and want to take steps build stronger teams - larger rosters, non-medical redshirting inevitably leading to ?.Clearly their focus is athletics. God Bless 'em. There are others who want to maintain the current policies which are more restrained. They have a far different conception of the role of athletics. Redshirting, larger rosters, moving to higher level competition and whatever comes next are out of the questio Expect the B of T & administration will continue to follow the correct path. I am one who favors a move as I firmly believe it is in the best interest of our special institution Not to minimize the importance and seriousness of the conversation, but we can walk and chew gum at the same time. Our academic reputation has suffered, the product has not grown, and we are searching for the right solution for the next century Mind, Body and Soul The Body/Athletics is the connective tissue Planning to lobby the BOT as hard as I can for the appropriate adjustments- not changes just a few adjustments We all love Holy Cross otherwise we wouldn't spend precious moments on Crossports ✝️✝️😇😇✝️✝️✝️🏈🏀⚾️🏉⚽️🎾🏒🥍🏑🤼🏊♀️🥎🚣♀️🍀🍀🍀 God bless all opinions- nobody right and nobody wrong Not a whole new engine, just a tune up?
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Post by longsuffering on Oct 24, 2022 18:19:24 GMT -5
Regarding Phreek's year at Peddie by Sluka reference, Bingo. That is one tool available to HC now. No approach is perfect but that scenario, when it is available is perfectly acceptable under current PL regulations.
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Post by efg72 on Oct 24, 2022 18:41:20 GMT -5
You’re equating non-medical redshirts and added scholarships with lesser academics. I think there’s a misconception that a nationally ranked football program must mean that academics are taking a back seat. That doesn’t have to be true. I’ve yet to see Villanova’s or Richmond’s academic reputation take a hit in the CAA. After the season is over, let’s see if any of the HC players are flunking classes, not graduating, etc. Actually, it is far more than academics. It has to do with the role of athletics at HC. It is the degree of emphasis. Are we going to adopt policies which would fundamentally change athletic policies? Doubt it. HC has years of restricting athletics in its history. Why would want to adopt larger rosters, redshirting more emphasis & money on recruiting? To win football/b-bll games? To what end? Win or lose on the field or court HC always wins. As to academics...Reputation as reported in popular magazines is not the end all and be all nor is it an accurate gauge of the level of academic integrity at a college.. There are more fundamental issues of philosophy. For instance the PL is not imposing the AI on HC. The AI is merely a reflection of HC policy promulgated in the early '50's. At that time HC joined with the IL in stating that its student athletes are representative academically of the student body. Stanford openly states it has different/lower standards for admission for its athletes. Friends have told me ND does the same. I admire both schools.I do not know about Richmond but based on its history Villanova & others do the same and accept athletes who would never get past the front gate at HC. In fact some have complained about Admissions at HC. It would surprise me if the PL adopted the changes suggested by some. Alums of good will can disagree. Peace. MM67we are aligned in so many ways but I respectfully think our path to a sustainable future is with the mind, body, and soul- all equal parts If they are not equal we lose the future. I Have no desire to sit back and let the patriot League determine the future of our institution. We are all of good will and pray for the best for our wonderful school Take good care and God Bless✝️✝️✝️
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Post by gks on Oct 24, 2022 18:54:50 GMT -5
Let's cut to the chase. There is a fundamental underlying disagreement about the role of athletics/academics at HC. There is an echo chamber of some few on this board who want to upend current HC/PL policy and want to take steps build stronger teams - larger rosters, non-medical redshirting inevitably leading to ?.Clearly their focus is athletics. God Bless 'em. There are others who want to maintain the current policies which are more restrained. They have a far different conception of the role of athletics. Redshirting, larger rosters, moving to higher level competition and whatever comes next are out of the questio Expect the B of T & administration will continue to follow the correct path. You’re equating non-medical redshirts and added scholarships with lesser academics. I think there’s a misconception that a nationally ranked football program must mean that academics are taking a back seat. That doesn’t have to be true. I’ve yet to see Villanova’s or Richmond’s academic reputation take a hit in the CAA. After the season is over, let’s see if any of the HC players are flunking classes, not graduating, etc. Exactly. There are some who believe that redshirting only applies to dummies. Stanford more than likely redshirts every freshman that enters the football program. Vanderbilt the same. Those schools are headed right to the sewer. Time for the PL to get out of the Stone Age.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 24, 2022 19:03:02 GMT -5
No inside knowledge but I just don’t think we will see any major changes regarding the football program any time soon.
I do believe that when this NCAA committee that Kit has referenced multiple times comes to terms with topics like transfer portal, NILs, division levels that this will require a total review by all schools, at least at FCS and mid major levels, not just Holy Cross.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 25, 2022 6:44:25 GMT -5
The 2019 football roster for BC. bceagles.com/sports/football/roster/2019This is before the COVID 'fifth year', and the advent of the transfer portal. There are no transfer students on the BC roster. There are TWO seniors on the roster. There are 15 graduate students on the roster, all apparently from BC. I did not check the bio page to verify this, however. There are 49 redshirts on the roster. (There are no senior redshirts,) Those listed on the roster as junior redshirts are academic seniors, and have one year of football eligibility left. The two players listed as seniors should have no further eligibility. (If they were injured senior year, and obtained a medical redshirt, then they could have a fifth year as a graduate student.) There are seven players on the roster listed as true juniors (one is AJ Dillon). There are 16 redshirt juniors. Basically, HC cannot use BC's redshirt approach because it lacks a graduate school.
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Post by Ignutz on Oct 25, 2022 7:14:33 GMT -5
Obviously, our hooking up with the CAA, someone other league, or creating a new conference with a reach that is outside (and potentially well outside) the geographic parameters of the PL, would involve a significant financial commitment - both up-front and on-going. We should stay with the PL, take the extra funds that would be needed to "upgrade", and pour that money back into the program. Lock up our talented coaching staff, provide the absolute finest facilities and amenities for the program, and take some trips out of market to enhance recruiting and spread the brand. We'll own the PL. We can play anyone anywhere at any time, and we'll have the real potential to be a perennial FCS power.
No matter how much we might spend in a (laughable) move to FBS, we'll never be ranked, we'll never have a national presence, and would be lucky to, every ten years or so, get invited to the Fruit-of-the-Loom Underwear Bowl - or another post-season match up that no one cares about.
Let's accept our role as a small, elite, undergraduate-only institution that plays football at the appropriate level, and is among the best in the country at that level.
And let's go undefeated this week!
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