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Post by bfoley82 on Jul 5, 2023 13:32:45 GMT -5
Outside of the Chesney run lately, Holy Cross has ONE NCAA football appearance in the last 39 years. I’m assuming you know that HC and its PL / Colonial comrades did not participate in the playoffs from the mid 1980s to 1996. HC would have had participated in the playoffs at least six times during this stretch, won a bunch of games, and likely have an NCAA Championship or two. Context is important. No one would argue that there have been lean stretches (1993 - 2004, 2012-17). One NCAA appearance in 21 years (in seasons they were eligible and the coach wasn't Chesney) if you want to play that game.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jul 5, 2023 14:25:48 GMT -5
I’m assuming you know that HC and its PL / Colonial comrades did not participate in the playoffs from the mid 1980s to 1996. HC would have had participated in the playoffs at least six times during this stretch, won a bunch of games, and likely have an NCAA Championship or two. Context is important. No one would argue that there have been lean stretches (1993 - 2004, 2012-17). One NCAA appearance in 21 years (in seasons they were eligible and the coach wasn't Chesney) if you want to play that game. The more relevant game (given it's 2023 and not 1995) is 32-11 and four playoff appearances over the past four seasons. Not sure why what happened when HC was non-scholarship with Pete Vaas as the head coach would have any bearing on today's college football landscape.
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Post by bfoley82 on Jul 5, 2023 17:08:25 GMT -5
One NCAA appearance in 21 years (in seasons they were eligible and the coach wasn't Chesney) if you want to play that game. The more relevant game (given it's 2023 and not 1995) is 32-11 and four playoff appearances over the past four seasons. Not sure why what happened when HC was non-scholarship with Pete Vaas as the head coach would have any bearing on today's college football landscape. Seems like it is the coach not the school that has the winning formula...🤣
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Post by sader1970 on Jul 5, 2023 17:18:13 GMT -5
You are correct but the institution hires the winning coach. Bad coaches lose. Good coaches win, often even when there are institutional challenges, which there obviously are at Holy Cross and many other schools. Haven't you learned anything about college athletics while taking all those pictures?
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Post by efg72 on Jul 5, 2023 17:29:27 GMT -5
While we all have a preference about the future, but if the staff can be retained and rewarded with FBS compensation and the program growth is driven by the coaches and administration why is FBS success out of reach or so undesirable??
Now if coaches aren't driving this success perhaps we have a different conversation.
Again FCS Titles are the goal, but not sure why so many are afraid of FBS possibilities.
I also agree with earlier posts that hoops, hockey, and perhaps soccer and Lax can compete at a significantly higher level.
Graduates know what the school and academics deliver, but outside of the family, Holy Cross and others like William and Mary get little recognition from the outside world. Perhaps we are at an inflection point to address the mindset of crossports fans and the new world of athletics at our great school.
After all historically we have significantly more in common with UVA, Duke, Rice, Wake Forest, Georgetown, Vandy, Northwestern, Stanford, William and Mary, Richmond, Colgate, Villanova, Fordham, and Boston College than we do with the remaining members of the PL.
The future has never been brighter, but as an institution are we as a strong academic institution, rich in tradition, willing to take a step forward? Doesn't need to be FBS, but we need to prepare for change
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 6, 2023 22:04:23 GMT -5
Educate us about our football history with UVA, Rice, Northwestern, Duke, Vandy, Richmond, Stanford. We do have history with BC, Fordham, Nova, GU, Colgate, Bill and Mary.
You do generate an interesting thought about BC. In a reinvention of FB subdivisions with the best of the best leaving the NCAA, where does that leave BC if they don't experience a FB Renaissance soon?
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Post by cruskater31 on Jul 9, 2023 22:55:55 GMT -5
Educate us about our football history with UVA, Rice, Northwestern, Duke, Vandy, Richmond, Stanford. We do have history with BC, Fordham, Nova, GU, Colgate, Bill and Mary. You do generate an interesting thought about BC. In a reinvention of FB subdivisions with the best of the best leaving the NCAA, where does that leave BC if they don't experience a FB Renaissance soon? UConn might be transitioning into an FBS "Renaissance," but I think UMass and BC are in for a Reformation instead!
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Post by hcpride on Jul 10, 2023 5:06:13 GMT -5
BC’s schedule is VERY soft this year so it’s quite likely they double last year’s win total and finish with 6. Northern Illinois, Holy Cross, UConn, and Army are 4 LIKELY W’s. May go 2/3 v VA/VT/GT .
Sooo, BC may appear to have some sort of Renaissance in 2023 based on weaker opponents alone…but their recruiting issues mean they may actually be in for an extended stay in the FBS Dark Ages.
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necfbfan
Climbing Mt. St. James
Posts: 78
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Post by necfbfan on Jul 10, 2023 8:43:30 GMT -5
BC’s schedule is VERY soft this year so it’s quite likely they double last year’s win total and finish with 6. Northern Illinois, Holy Cross, UConn, and Army are 4 LIKELY W’s. May go 2/3 v VA/VT/GT . Sooo, BC may appear to have some sort of Renaissance in 2023 based on weaker opponents alone…but their recruiting issues mean they may actually be in for an extended stay in the FBS Dark Ages. I'm not holding my breath for it, that program is dreadful. And BC is in an interesting spot moving forward (When the ACC is poached.) They certainly won't be called along with Clemson and FSU to join the top tier leagues. They could stick around in a watered down ACC, once the ACC loses P5 status, is it really worth staying in that conference to play teams like East Carolina and USF (Who I presume will be called up when the top ACC schools leave.) It's already hard enough to get anyone in the region to care when BC is playing Louisville and NC State. Now imagine how few people will care when even those program bounce to the Big 12 and BC is stuck playing Charlotte. Wouldn't it make more sense for BC ro break off and form a northeastern league at that point? Just food for thought. As for UConn/UMass, UMass has no foreseeable future, but UConn should bounce to the Big 12. That's a top 3 conference in football and basketball and would increase their revenue and exposure tremendously. If offered, they should absolutely accept.
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 10, 2023 10:46:08 GMT -5
BC’s schedule is VERY soft this year so it’s quite likely they double last year’s win total and finish with 6. Northern Illinois, Holy Cross, UConn, and Army are 4 LIKELY W’s. May go 2/3 v VA/VT/GT . Sooo, BC may appear to have some sort of Renaissance in 2023 based on weaker opponents alone…but their recruiting issues mean they may actually be in for an extended stay in the FBS Dark Ages. I'm not holding my breath for it, that program is dreadful. And BC is in an interesting spot moving forward (When the ACC is poached.) They certainly won't be called along with Clemson and FSU to join the top tier leagues. They could stick around in a watered down ACC, once the ACC loses P5 status, is it really worth staying in that conference to play teams like East Carolina and USF (Who I presume will be called up when the top ACC schools leave.) It's already hard enough to get anyone in the region to care when BC is playing Louisville and NC State. Now imagine how few people will care when even those program bounce to the Big 12 and BC is stuck playing Charlotte. Wouldn't it make more sense for BC ro break off and form a northeastern league at that point? Just food for thought. As for UConn/UMass, UMass has no foreseeable future, but UConn should bounce to the Big 12. That's a top 3 conference in football and basketball and would increase their revenue and exposure tremendously. If offered, they should absolutely accept. Agree. I thought the ACC might have made a mistake offering BC instead instead of UConn originally. The college sports market in Boston can't compete with rabid UConn fans in the Nutmeg State. Metro Boston might be similar in size to the state of CT depending on where you draw the boundary for metro Boston, but I don't think the interest in BC athletics is as strong as it is for the Huskies.
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Post by bfoley82 on Jul 10, 2023 12:24:42 GMT -5
BC’s schedule is VERY soft this year so it’s quite likely they double last year’s win total and finish with 6. Northern Illinois, Holy Cross, UConn, and Army are 4 LIKELY W’s. May go 2/3 v VA/VT/GT . Sooo, BC may appear to have some sort of Renaissance in 2023 based on weaker opponents alone…but their recruiting issues mean they may actually be in for an extended stay in the FBS Dark Ages. UConn might beat them...
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Post by hc87 on Jul 10, 2023 13:05:52 GMT -5
BC football, like HC in many ways only writ smaller, lost a lot of subway alumni support ovah the last couple of generations or so.
Variety of reasons: the rise of the Patriots, BC becoming a more national school i.e. in so doing losing Greatahh Boston fans who aren't alums, BC joining the ACC as stated here and thus losing their local appeal etc.
It will be interesting to see how all this plays out moving forward for schools like BC, Wake, Vandy, Northwestern etc
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jul 10, 2023 14:03:46 GMT -5
it would be great if bc lost all its games before ever-shrinking crowds
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 10, 2023 14:05:47 GMT -5
it would be great if bc lost all its games before ever-shrinking crowds And beg to play at Fitton again to generate interest in their woebegon program.
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necfbfan
Climbing Mt. St. James
Posts: 78
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Post by necfbfan on Jul 10, 2023 14:26:02 GMT -5
BC’s schedule is VERY soft this year so it’s quite likely they double last year’s win total and finish with 6. Northern Illinois, Holy Cross, UConn, and Army are 4 LIKELY W’s. May go 2/3 v VA/VT/GT . Sooo, BC may appear to have some sort of Renaissance in 2023 based on weaker opponents alone…but their recruiting issues mean they may actually be in for an extended stay in the FBS Dark Ages. UConn might beat them... They did it last year, 13-3. I think the Huskies under Jim Mora might be better than BC.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jul 10, 2023 14:30:18 GMT -5
BC football, like HC in many ways only writ smaller, lost a lot of subway alumni support ovah the last couple of generations or so. Variety of reasons: the rise of the Patriots, BC becoming a more national school i.e. in so doing losing Greatahh Boston fans who aren't alums, BC joining the ACC as stated here and thus losing their local appeal etc. It will be interesting to see how all this plays out moving forward for schools like BC, Wake, Vandy, Northwestern etc All are contributing factors as is the most logical one: it hasn't been a great program of late. BC hasn't won more than seven games in a season in 15 years. It hasn't been in the Top 15 since 2007 (hasn't been in the Top 25 since 2018) and hasn't been to a New Year's Bowl (or comparable level) since 1984, with one mid-tier bowl win since (2016 "Quick Lane Bowl" during that time. BC has six winning seasons in its last eight but the Hall of Good is not the Hall of Fame. Closer to FCS, programs experience a lull when they stall and seem to make no forward progress: Delaware, for one, Colgate, another. The Red Raiders averaged just 3,204 last season, or slightly more than Bryant. Lehigh, at 3,886, was another generational low. As Vince Lombardi famously said, "Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing." Well, finishing 7-6 can be a habit as well.
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Post by hcpride on Jul 10, 2023 14:34:31 GMT -5
They did it last year, 13-3. I think the Huskies under Jim Mora might be better than BC. Certainly. And West Point beat UCONN last year (34-17) so West Point MAY also beat BC this year.
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Post by bfoley82 on Jul 10, 2023 15:44:09 GMT -5
They did it last year, 13-3. I think the Huskies under Jim Mora might be better than BC. Certainly. And West Point beat UCONN last year (34-17) so West Point MAY also beat BC this year. If I remember right, UConn's starting QB got hurt early in the year so for them to even get to a bowl last year was impressive.
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Post by gks on Jul 10, 2023 18:21:50 GMT -5
I'm not holding my breath for it, that program is dreadful. And BC is in an interesting spot moving forward (When the ACC is poached.) They certainly won't be called along with Clemson and FSU to join the top tier leagues. They could stick around in a watered down ACC, once the ACC loses P5 status, is it really worth staying in that conference to play teams like East Carolina and USF (Who I presume will be called up when the top ACC schools leave.) It's already hard enough to get anyone in the region to care when BC is playing Louisville and NC State. Now imagine how few people will care when even those program bounce to the Big 12 and BC is stuck playing Charlotte. Wouldn't it make more sense for BC ro break off and form a northeastern league at that point? Just food for thought. As for UConn/UMass, UMass has no foreseeable future, but UConn should bounce to the Big 12. That's a top 3 conference in football and basketball and would increase their revenue and exposure tremendously. If offered, they should absolutely accept. Agree. I thought the ACC might have made a mistake offering BC instead instead of UConn originally. The college sports market in Boston can't compete with rabid UConn fans in the Nutmeg State. Metro Boston might be similar in size to the state of CT depending on where you draw the boundary for metro Boston, but I don't think the interest in BC athletics is as strong as it is for the Huskies. You are 100% correct on this. Unfortunately fanbases are meaningless when it comes to college conference expansions. It's all about TV market size. That's why schools like Vanderbilt (SEC) and Northwestern (Big 10) are not going anywhere.
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 10, 2023 18:34:28 GMT -5
The PL is safe. We are a streaming league.🙂
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jul 10, 2023 19:05:11 GMT -5
You are 100% correct on this. Unfortunately fanbases are meaningless when it comes to college conference expansions. It's all about TV market size. That's why schools like Vanderbilt (SEC) and Northwestern (Big 10) are not going anywhere. It's no longer about markets - the Big 10 didn't need two teams in Los Angeles 12 miles apart to own the market. It's about brands now. Which is why, not now but eventually, schools like Northwestern, Rutgers, Vanderbilt, Mississippi State, and Missouri are vulnerable.
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Post by hcpride on Jul 10, 2023 19:26:28 GMT -5
You are 100% correct on this. Unfortunately fanbases are meaningless when it comes to college conference expansions. It's all about TV market size. That's why schools like Vanderbilt (SEC) and Northwestern (Big 10) are not going anywhere. It's no longer about markets - the Big 10 didn't need two teams in Los Angeles 12 miles apart to own the market. It's about brands now. Which is why, not now but eventually, schools like Northwestern, Rutgers, Vanderbilt, Mississippi State, and Missouri are vulnerable. I don’t think BIG 10 and SEC will be tossing teams. More a case of bringing in additional teams over time to those two mega-conferences. On another front - and thanks to HUGE exit fees - looks like the ACC giants (Clemson, Florida State, etc) aren’t going anywhere for now. Which is good news for BC.
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necfbfan
Climbing Mt. St. James
Posts: 78
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Post by necfbfan on Jul 10, 2023 19:27:00 GMT -5
You are 100% correct on this. Unfortunately fanbases are meaningless when it comes to college conference expansions. It's all about TV market size. That's why schools like Vanderbilt (SEC) and Northwestern (Big 10) are not going anywhere. It's no longer about markets - the Big 10 didn't need two teams in Los Angeles 12 miles apart to own the market. It's about brands now. Which is why, not now but eventually, schools like Northwestern, Rutgers, Vanderbilt, Mississippi State, and Missouri are vulnerable. Northwestern, Vandy, et al are safe for now because they're grandfathered into their respective conferences. It'd be a legal mess to try and remove a school who has been a member for decades (In the cases of Rutgers and Mizzou, they're lucky they got in when they could.) If, however, the top teams leave the NCAA and form their own league, then yeah, those schools are 100% getting left behind.
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 10, 2023 23:07:39 GMT -5
It's no longer about markets - the Big 10 didn't need two teams in Los Angeles 12 miles apart to own the market. It's about brands now. Which is why, not now but eventually, schools like Northwestern, Rutgers, Vanderbilt, Mississippi State, and Missouri are vulnerable. Northwestern, Vandy, et al are safe for now because they're grandfathered into their respective conferences. It'd be a legal mess to try and remove a school who has been a member for decades (In the cases of Rutgers and Mizzou, they're lucky they got in when they could.) If, however, the top teams leave the NCAA and form their own league, then yeah, those schools are 100% getting left behind. "grandfathered into" is why I think any founding member of the Patriot League should measure twice before deciding to leave the PL. It can be a jungle out there.
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Post by timholycross on Jul 11, 2023 9:24:51 GMT -5
Agree. I thought the ACC might have made a mistake offering BC instead instead of UConn originally. The college sports market in Boston can't compete with rabid UConn fans in the Nutmeg State. Metro Boston might be similar in size to the state of CT depending on where you draw the boundary for metro Boston, but I don't think the interest in BC athletics is as strong as it is for the Huskies. You are 100% correct on this. Unfortunately fanbases are meaningless when it comes to college conference expansions. It's all about TV market size. That's why schools like Vanderbilt (SEC) and Northwestern (Big 10) are not going anywhere. But the casual sports fan in Greater Boston isn't tuned in to BC's fortunes even if they are doing well. That eliminates a lot of potential viewers. Plus, unless BC really makes a NIL push, they're going to get outbid on a lot of athletes. Their teams will have great difficulty rising from mediocrity.
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