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Post by nycrusader2010 on Mar 11, 2024 13:21:32 GMT -5
I don't think the Ivies are supposed to use the term "scholarship". They offer need-based aid. "Hey Joe Linebacker, you need to play for Princeton, so here's some need-based grant money. Think of it like a scholarship, but we are better than everyone else so we don't call them scholarships". At the Ivies, all aid is need-based. Need-based aid is determined by a formula that takes into account family income, number in the family, number in college, assets, investments, etc. The numbers get entered into the computer, mostly directly from FAFSA, and out comes the dollar amount. Whether or not the applicant is an athlete, or a cello player, or has 1600s on his SATs is irrelevant. They don't use the term "scholarship" because the connotation of a scholarship implies that awarding it is discretionary. Athletically-related aid would be a scholarship. So would academically-related or merit-based aid. The football player isn't getting additional money to play football. The cello player isn't getting additional money to play the cello. The Ivies did away with discretionary aid ("scholarships") years ago. Except for the poorest kids, everyone at an Ivy is paying something out of pocket.
Despite the claims of some, almost ad nauseam, that athletes at the Ivies are getting athletics scholarships, no one can provide a scintilla of hard evidence (not hearsay) that it is true. Anyone who has actually worked with athletically-related aid can tell you how hard that would be to pull off at a school that nominally provides only need-based aid. It would require a grand conspiracy involving the AD, the athletics compliance staff, the coaches, the financial aid office, the faculty athletics representative, the independent auditors, not to mention the athletes themselves. That's hundreds of people over many years and not one has uttered a peep?. Absurd. Then again, people who believe in grand conspiracies aren't bothered in the least by the lack of evidence that they are true. They just see that as another grand conspiracy.
This is accurate to my knowledge. Unlike what happens at other non-scholarship FCS programs past and present, football recruits can't haggle Ivy schools to up the ante on aid packages. What you get is what you get, based on need. Of course, there is a lot MORE MONEY available at the Ivies than at other private schools, perhaps more than what would equate to 63 scholarships. I don't know. But it's not athletic based aid. There is no MERIT aid to the Ivies. In contrast, such haggling absolutely used to take place in the non-scholarship Patriot League as well as previous non-scholly leagues like the MAAC and NEC. Probably happens in the Pioneer to this day as well. One of my friends growing up was in between Iona and Marist his senior year and his mom wanted him to go to whichever school offered more. He decided he wanted to go to Iona, but at the time Marist had offered him slightly more grant-in-aid. He called the coach at Iona and bluffed the fact that Marist was offering something like 5K more / year. Coach called back the next day after getting updated grant-in-aid offer for him. So he went to Iona. With regards to 1996 claim that coaches throw around the term "scholarship" when in kids' living rooms, I've never heard of it happening but it wouldn't surprise me. Anecdotally, I've heard parents in the past brag about their kids getting "scholarships" or "full rides" to Ivy schools. Not sure if its because of lingo used by coaches that recruited them. More likely just parental one-ups-man-ship around HS lacrosse fields and track meets.
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Post by hc1996 on Mar 11, 2024 13:32:32 GMT -5
At the Ivies, all aid is need-based. Need-based aid is determined by a formula that takes into account family income, number in the family, number in college, assets, investments, etc. The numbers get entered into the computer, mostly directly from FAFSA, and out comes the dollar amount. Whether or not the applicant is an athlete, or a cello player, or has 1600s on his SATs is irrelevant. They don't use the term "scholarship" because the connotation of a scholarship implies that awarding it is discretionary. Athletically-related aid would be a scholarship. So would academically-related or merit-based aid. The football player isn't getting additional money to play football. The cello player isn't getting additional money to play the cello. The Ivies did away with discretionary aid ("scholarships") years ago. Except for the poorest kids, everyone at an Ivy is paying something out of pocket.
Despite the claims of some, almost ad nauseam, that athletes at the Ivies are getting athletics scholarships, no one can provide a scintilla of hard evidence (not hearsay) that it is true. Anyone who has actually worked with athletically-related aid can tell you how hard that would be to pull off at a school that nominally provides only need-based aid. It would require a grand conspiracy involving the AD, the athletics compliance staff, the coaches, the financial aid office, the faculty athletics representative, the independent auditors, not to mention the athletes themselves. That's hundreds of people over many years and not one has uttered a peep?. Absurd. Then again, people who believe in grand conspiracies aren't bothered in the least by the lack of evidence that they are true. They just see that as another grand conspiracy.
This is accurate to my knowledge. Unlike what happens at other non-scholarship FCS programs past and present, football recruits can't haggle Ivy schools to up the ante on aid packages. What you get is what you get, based on need. Of course, there is a lot MORE MONEY available at the Ivies than at other private schools, perhaps more than what would equate to 63 scholarships. I don't know. But it's not athletic based aid. There is no MERIT aid to the Ivies. In contrast, such haggling absolutely used to take place in the non-scholarship Patriot League as well as previous non-scholly leagues like the MAAC and NEC. Probably happens in the Pioneer to this day as well. One of my friends growing up was in between Iona and Marist his senior year and his mom wanted him to go to whichever school offered more. He decided he wanted to go to Iona, but at the time Marist had offered him slightly more grant-in-aid. He called the coach at Iona and bluffed the fact that Marist was offering something like 5K more / year. Coach called back the next day after getting updated grant-in-aid offer for him. So he went to Iona. With regards to 1996 claim that coaches throw around the term "scholarship" when in kids' living rooms, I've never heard of it happening but it wouldn't surprise me. Anecdotally, I've heard parents in the past brag about their kids getting "scholarships" or "full rides" to Ivy schools. Not sure if its because of lingo used by coaches that recruited them. More likely just parental one-ups-man-ship around HS lacrosse fields and track meets. I wasn't the one who made the claim about the Ivy coaches using the term "scholarship" but I wouldn't be surprised. I'm the one who says that the Ivies claim to be non-scholarship, need-only, but are in fact offering aid to athletes that is not based on need. Back when the Patriot League was desperately trying to be recognized as Ivy-lite and got rid of scholarships, my good friend had a full grant to play basketball. Don't be fooled, it wasn't an athletic scholarship. C'mon guys....
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Post by princetoncrusader on Mar 11, 2024 13:46:53 GMT -5
Back when I was a portfolio manager at a major mutual fund complex, one of the institutional salesman who covered our account had played football at Colgate back in the pre-scholarship PL days. His dad was an orthopedic surgeon. In one of our many football conversations between bond discussions, he divulged that he received financial aid from Colgate. While I am sure it was a modest amount, even he was surprised to get any money.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 11, 2024 13:51:53 GMT -5
This isn't a conspiracy guys. Sadly, it's the way the world works. Do you really think schools that accept money in exchange for sub par students like Jared Kushner won't bend the rules for an advantage elsewhere? Please tell me you don't think Jared Kushner is an anomaly. Heck, I had a friend at HC who had his rejection letter framed on the wall of his apartment on Caro Street. Long story short, his dad wrote a check. Here we go again with the politics
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Post by gks on Mar 11, 2024 13:59:09 GMT -5
I would say with a decent amount of confidence that when a Harvard coach enters a home they use the word 'scholarship' and not 'grant'. When you don't want to follow the rules you call things by different names as a technicality. Harvard and Yale FB must have horrific compliance records with the NCAA since they are not following the rules. In reality America's great Universities like the Ivies, MIT, Stanford etc., should generate national pride because they are the best in the world and they are in the USA. They may put up with a little plagiarism but I doubt they would tolerate persistent widespread rules violations in athletics. I think H&Y are generous to a fault to all students. No good deed goes unpunished. No one has every said H and Y weren't generous. I vigorously applaud schools that give outstanding financial aid. More should blow the dust off their checkbooks and follow HYP's lead. But when it comes to football ask any football coach that competes against the Ivies about their equivalency situation. It's well-above even FBS levels. They're a non-factor and basically invisible nationally in football so they just get away with it. The second the Ivy League says we're in on the FCS playoffs the CAA and western schools will demand the books be opened. If HC offers a full ride and Harvard wants that player most times than not the Johnnies will find a way to sweeten the pot. People can believe what they want about the 'purity' of the Ivy model but the Ivy model is to stockpile talent and win one game a year.
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Post by hc1996 on Mar 11, 2024 14:00:51 GMT -5
This isn't a conspiracy guys. Sadly, it's the way the world works. Do you really think schools that accept money in exchange for sub par students like Jared Kushner won't bend the rules for an advantage elsewhere? Please tell me you don't think Jared Kushner is an anomaly. Heck, I had a friend at HC who had his rejection letter framed on the wall of his apartment on Caro Street. Long story short, his dad wrote a check. Here we go again with the politics I don't see the politics here and I am certainly not trying to be political. I love HC as much as anyone on this board. It just really irritates me when I hear people putting the Ivies up on a moral pedestal. They bend the rules.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Mar 11, 2024 15:47:00 GMT -5
Here we go again with the politics I don't see the politics here and I am certainly not trying to be political. I love HC as much as anyone on this board. It just really irritates me when I hear people putting the Ivies up on a moral pedestal. They bend the rules. Hard to put them on a moral pedestal when you have Ivy university presidents actively aiding and abetting gross anti-Semitism on campus. Not political here either when it's fact.
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Post by crusader1970 on Mar 11, 2024 17:29:57 GMT -5
Let me tell you two Ivy stories.
1} Several years ago I heard a recruiter from an Ivy school quoted as saying with a wink to the father of a kid they were recruiting for football: "In the Ivies there are no athletic scholarships. Any scholarship is based on NEED only. And, if you are 6'6" 285, we NEED you."
2) A local 6'9" hooper bounced around to three different high schools. Some of movement was athletic based, much of it was because he was such a weak student. Several mid majors were interested in him. In the Spring of his senior year I ran into his mom at a HS playoff game and asked where her son was going to college. The response? "Harvard. How funny is that?" He was on the team for two years but logged few minutes and quit as a junior. But he actually graduated.
The Ivies overall have pretty high standards for athletes but there are loads of exceptions to the rule.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 11, 2024 17:57:15 GMT -5
Harvard and Yale FB must have horrific compliance records with the NCAA since they are not following the rules. In reality America's great Universities like the Ivies, MIT, Stanford etc., should generate national pride because they are the best in the world and they are in the USA. They may put up with a little plagiarism but I doubt they would tolerate persistent widespread rules violations in athletics. I think H&Y are generous to a fault to all students. No good deed goes unpunished. No one has every said H and Y weren't generous. I vigorously applaud schools that give outstanding financial aid. More should blow the dust off their checkbooks and follow HYP's lead. But when it comes to football ask any football coach that competes against the Ivies about their equivalency situation. It's well-above even FBS levels. They're a non-factor and basically invisible nationally in football so they just get away with it. The second the Ivy League says we're in on the FCS playoffs the CAA and western schools will demand the books be opened. If HC offers a full ride and Harvard wants that player most times than not the Johnnies will find a way to sweeten the pot. People can believe what they want about the 'purity' of the Ivy model but the Ivy model is to stockpile talent and win one game a year. Who from those leagues would do the demanding and who would they make the demand to, and why would any entity be authorized to release proprietary information and why would any league deserve expanded access beyond what NCAA rules require just because they are butt hurt? Don't mean to pile on but we compete strongly and fairly with the IL, more competitively than with PL weak sisters like Lafayette, er, uh, except last season.🙂 So we really can't fix something that isn't broken. I respect FCS coaches who work their butts off and knowledgeable fans like you but at a certain point it's just common sense that the Ivies and Service Academies don't need to give athletic scholarships because of their unique status and they compete above board under existing regulations.
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Post by gks on Mar 11, 2024 19:18:02 GMT -5
No one has every said H and Y weren't generous. I vigorously applaud schools that give outstanding financial aid. More should blow the dust off their checkbooks and follow HYP's lead. But when it comes to football ask any football coach that competes against the Ivies about their equivalency situation. It's well-above even FBS levels. They're a non-factor and basically invisible nationally in football so they just get away with it. The second the Ivy League says we're in on the FCS playoffs the CAA and western schools will demand the books be opened. If HC offers a full ride and Harvard wants that player most times than not the Johnnies will find a way to sweeten the pot. People can believe what they want about the 'purity' of the Ivy model but the Ivy model is to stockpile talent and win one game a year. Who from those leagues would do the demanding and who would they make the demand to, and why would any entity be authorized to release proprietary information and why would any league deserve expanded access beyond what NCAA rules require just because they are butt hurt? Don't mean to pile on but we compete strongly and fairly with the IL, more competitively than with PL weak sisters like Lafayette, er, uh, except last season.🙂 So we really can't fix something that isn't broken. I respect FCS coaches who work their butts off and knowledgeable fans like you but at a certain point it's just common sense that the Ivies and Service Academies don't need to give athletic scholarships because of their unique status and they compete above board under existing regulations. You can believe what you'd like. FCS coaches know darn well that the equivalencies at HYP are way, way, way above NCAA limits. That's fair? If you have the chance to talk with coaches they'll tell you they are at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to recruiting against HYP. When it comes to the rest of the PL and the Ivies, I don't care. On the field HC has had much better coaching and that makes a huge difference.
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Post by gks on Mar 11, 2024 19:21:21 GMT -5
Let me tell you two Ivy stories. 1} Several years ago I heard a recruiter from an Ivy school quoted as saying with a wink to the father of a kid they were recruiting for football: "In the Ivies there are no athletic scholarships. Any scholarship is based on NEED only. And, if you are 6'6" 285, we NEED you." 2) A local 6'9" hooper bounced around to three different high schools. Some of movement was athletic based, much of it was because he was such a weak student. Several mid majors were interested in him. In the Spring of his senior year I ran into his mom at a HS playoff game and asked where her son was going to college. The response? "Harvard. How funny is that?" He was on the team for two years but logged few minutes and quit as a junior. But he actually graduated. The Ivies overall have pretty high standards for athletes but there are loads of exceptions to the rule. Those on this board who believe in the 'purity' of Ivy athletics, unicorns and leprechauns will chastise you for this post.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 11, 2024 19:30:01 GMT -5
Who from those leagues would do the demanding and who would they make the demand to, and why would any entity be authorized to release proprietary information and why would any league deserve expanded access beyond what NCAA rules require just because they are butt hurt? Don't mean to pile on but we compete strongly and fairly with the IL, more competitively than with PL weak sisters like Lafayette, er, uh, except last season.🙂 So we really can't fix something that isn't broken. I respect FCS coaches who work their butts off and knowledgeable fans like you but at a certain point it's just common sense that the Ivies and Service Academies don't need to give athletic scholarships because of their unique status and they compete above board under existing regulations. You can believe what you'd like. FCS coaches know darn well that the equivalencies at HYP are way, way, way above NCAA limits. That's fair? If you have the chance to talk with coaches they'll tell you they are at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to recruiting against HYP. When it comes to the rest of the PL and the Ivies, I don't care. On the field HC has had much better coaching and that makes a huge difference. The English Dept., the Chemistry Dept. and Admissions will tell you they are at a disadvantage against the Ivies also. "Fairly" can be defined multiple ways, granted. I'm using it to mean both HC and their IL opponents compete fairly because they are both complying with NCAA rules. HC had great coaching under Chesney. The record book says Tim Murphy was a great coach at Harvard also.
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Post by mm67 on Mar 11, 2024 19:33:16 GMT -5
A number of years ago there was an admissions scandal at Penn. Apparently admission forms of athletes had been notated with a star. Stuff hit the fan with the administration and among alums as well. It was stopped. Don't know if heads rolled. Read about it in a Penn alumni magazine handed to me by a Penn grad. He was furious about notating athletes. He said he hoped athletes at HC were not given special consideration by admissions. I responded "Not to my knowledge." Student-athletes at HC are academically representative of the student body as a whole. This is similar to the IL. Actually this had been the policy at HC in the '40's and was promulgated in the early '50's along with but independent of the IL. AI takes academics into account but allows for a holistic approach to admitting students all within the academic profile of the school. Financial aid for all students in the IL is need-based utilizing the same formula. However, in the late'90's a close friend's daughter received an offer of financial aid from Yale. She received an offer for more aid from Princeton. My buddy played Yale off Princeton and Yale matched Princeton in terms of out-of-pocket cost. Actually she preferred Yale as she did not care for the answers Princeton admissions provided to her probing questions about the school . His cost was only $10 thou per annum. I asked how? He said there is always a very little leeway but nothing major in financial aid. She graduated and has been quite successful. But he did not like Yale's campus climate. Times I visited, I was impressed. New Haven Pizza was the bomb. None of this has anything to do with Jared Kushner, anti-semitism or anything else.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Mar 11, 2024 21:41:32 GMT -5
Who from those leagues would do the demanding and who would they make the demand to, and why would any entity be authorized to release proprietary information and why would any league deserve expanded access beyond what NCAA rules require just because they are butt hurt? Don't mean to pile on but we compete strongly and fairly with the IL, more competitively than with PL weak sisters like Lafayette, er, uh, except last season.🙂 So we really can't fix something that isn't broken. I respect FCS coaches who work their butts off and knowledgeable fans like you but at a certain point it's just common sense that the Ivies and Service Academies don't need to give athletic scholarships because of their unique status and they compete above board under existing regulations. You can believe what you'd like. FCS coaches know darn well that the equivalencies at HYP are way, way, way above NCAA limits. That's fair? If you have the chance to talk with coaches they'll tell you they are at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to recruiting against HYP. When it comes to the rest of the PL and the Ivies, I don't care. On the field HC has had much better coaching and that makes a huge difference. Meh, I don't think its that big a deal. Let's see the Ivies compete in the NCAA playoffs. Guarantee you that South Dakota State, Montana and Villanova won't be intimated by the extra "scholarships".
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Post by jkh67 on Mar 12, 2024 10:12:42 GMT -5
Who from those leagues would do the demanding and who would they make the demand to, and why would any entity be authorized to release proprietary information and why would any league deserve expanded access beyond what NCAA rules require just because they are butt hurt? Don't mean to pile on but we compete strongly and fairly with the IL, more competitively than with PL weak sisters like Lafayette, er, uh, except last season.🙂 So we really can't fix something that isn't broken. I respect FCS coaches who work their butts off and knowledgeable fans like you but at a certain point it's just common sense that the Ivies and Service Academies don't need to give athletic scholarships because of their unique status and they compete above board under existing regulations. You can believe what you'd like. FCS coaches know darn well that the equivalencies at HYP are way, way, way above NCAA limits. That's fair? If you have the chance to talk with coaches they'll tell you they are at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to recruiting against HYP. When it comes to the rest of the PL and the Ivies, I don't care. On the field HC has had much better coaching and that makes a huge difference. No doubt other schools are at a "distinct disadvantage" when it comes to recruiting against HYP. Much of that certainly has to do with their elite reputations in the higher education firmament. I mean, if you could go to Princeton and play football in their outstanding replacement for the legendary Palmer Stadium and graduate with a Princeton degree, would you go to Holy Cross...or any other non- Ivy FCS school for that matter? I don't know anything about their "equivalencies" (whatever those are) being "way, way above NCAA limits", but if they're breaking the rules one would expect numerous complaints to the NCAA. Are you aware of any? Finally, Chesney was a miracle worker...but some might question how much better he was than Harvard's Tim Murphy!
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Post by hc1996 on Mar 12, 2024 10:20:28 GMT -5
Nobody really cares about Ivy football and basketball nationally. We only care because we compete with them. If anyone were to complain about the Ivies, I'm sure Charlie Baker would have a lot to say about it. Charlie Baker went to Harvard by the way.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 12, 2024 10:32:07 GMT -5
Who from those leagues would do the demanding and who would they make the demand to, and why would any entity be authorized to release proprietary information and why would any league deserve expanded access beyond what NCAA rules require just because they are butt hurt? Don't mean to pile on but we compete strongly and fairly with the IL, more competitively than with PL weak sisters like Lafayette, er, uh, except last season.🙂 So we really can't fix something that isn't broken. I respect FCS coaches who work their butts off and knowledgeable fans like you but at a certain point it's just common sense that the Ivies and Service Academies don't need to give athletic scholarships because of their unique status and they compete above board under existing regulations. You can believe what you'd like. FCS coaches know darn well that the equivalencies at HYP are way, way, way above NCAA limits. That's fair? If you have the chance to talk with coaches they'll tell you they are at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to recruiting against HYP. When it comes to the rest of the PL and the Ivies, I don't care. On the field HC has had much better coaching and that makes a huge difference. It's not that I don't believe your experiences with coaches venting but it's like a salesman for a regional delivery outfit saying about his counterpart at UPS, "all he has to is say UPS and he gets the contract." The regional company can be quite successful but they are going to lose some prospects for reasons they or ICC regulations can't control. Neither HC or other schools can become Harvard or West Point but we can compete with both on the gridiron and court, just can't win every recruiting battle against them.
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Post by timholycross on Mar 12, 2024 12:47:00 GMT -5
You are so naive. I call a package that reduces out of pocket expenses from 60 K to 1.8 K a SCHOLARSHIP. Not naive at all. I have shared many times on this board that I am aware of the Ivies offering aid to athletes in the form of grants. My point here is if they change course and openly offer athletic scholarships, their programs will become even more appealing to student athletes. Scholarships upset their equation if they stay in FCS. There are only 65 full ones! Only if they move up to FBS does the "more appealing" part kick in.
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 12, 2024 13:19:06 GMT -5
Nobody really cares about Ivy football and basketball nationally. We only care because we compete with them. If anyone were to complain about the Ivies, I'm sure Charlie Baker would have a lot to say about it. Charlie Baker went to Harvard by the way. Nobody nationally cares about PL FB and BB either except we do go to the under the radar fcs tournament. We can't find stronger FCS competition anywhere because nobody else has the same equivalencies.
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Sertorius
Climbing Mt. St. James
Haters everywhere I go
Posts: 74
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Post by Sertorius on Mar 13, 2024 10:18:12 GMT -5
HC played Penn 5 times. 1990 HC won a close one 1991 HC won 45-0. Don't think the game was that close, but knowing Duff's track record, he probably rubbed it in a litte. 1994 Penn won 59-8. 2000 HC won 34-17; believe HC was ahead by a lot more than that and Penn made it close. 2001 Penn won 43-7. Understand the 1994 result even though no one then coaching HC had anything to do with the 1991 game. The 2001 game not sure why there was bad feeling from 2000 but apparently there was. Dan Allen made some comments about it later. HC has a better mascot and DTs than Penn too
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 13, 2024 11:48:06 GMT -5
HC played Penn 5 times. 1990 HC won a close one 1991 HC won 45-0. Don't think the game was that close, but knowing Duff's track record, he probably rubbed it in a litte. 1994 Penn won 59-8. 2000 HC won 34-17; believe HC was ahead by a lot more than that and Penn made it close. 2001 Penn won 43-7. Understand the 1994 result even though no one then coaching HC had anything to do with the 1991 game. The 2001 game not sure why there was bad feeling from 2000 but apparently there was. Dan Allen made some comments about it later. HC has a better mascot and DTs than Penn too Welcome back Rip Van Winkle.🙂 Our cuddly mascot "Iggy" was considered a symbol of violence and sent to mascot heaven a few years ago.
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Post by hc87 on Mar 13, 2024 17:32:02 GMT -5
I always wondered how Colgate got the players they did in the 1970s and 1980s without technically offering scholarships....multiple guys who went on to the NFL, many tremendous players that beat very good scholarship teams at the time....had to be a LOT of financial aid etc.
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Post by drjack on Mar 13, 2024 17:47:09 GMT -5
HC played Penn 5 times. 1990 HC won a close one 1991 HC won 45-0. Don't think the game was that close, but knowing Duff's track record, he probably rubbed it in a litte. 1994 Penn won 59-8. 2000 HC won 34-17; believe HC was ahead by a lot more than that and Penn made it close. 2001 Penn won 43-7. Understand the 1994 result even though no one then coaching HC had anything to do with the 1991 game. The 2001 game not sure why there was bad feeling from 2000 but apparently there was. Dan Allen made some comments about it later. HC has a better mascot and DTs than Penn too Maybe a hot take, but I'm so happy out last logo/mascot got retired. Was cheap and tacky looking. I will whole heartedly support a campaign to bring it back if we can get an actual suit of armor instead of foam, though.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 13, 2024 18:32:00 GMT -5
Probably a good idea. No telling how much damage could be done by that foam sword Iggy carried.
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hc69
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 219
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Post by hc69 on Mar 13, 2024 20:24:41 GMT -5
I always wondered how Colgate got the players they did in the 1970s and 1980s without technically offering scholarships....multiple guys who went on to the NFL, many tremendous players that beat very good scholarship teams at the time....had to be a LOT of financial aid etc. We had as many players from the 1970s/1980s make NFL rosters as 'Gate did and our best NFL players were just as good as theirs,
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