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Post by alum on Mar 19, 2017 21:10:15 GMT -5
Just walked by a rack of the Georgetown student newspaper "Georgetown receives record number of applicants." Thank you Fr Brooks Either put up some proof that a decision to not join the Big East in 1978 is the cause of flat admissions figures in 2017, or just give it a rest. What events of the 1940's had an impact on your decision to apply to HC? I think that the College could do a better job in recruiting students, but I am not sure that the basketball schedule has anything to do with it. FWIW, my senior in high school daughter had no interest in HC or Trinity because she sees them as "jock" schools. Does that make you feel better?
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Post by hcpride on Mar 20, 2017 5:43:58 GMT -5
Just walked by a rack of the Georgetown student newspaper "Georgetown receives record number of applicants." Thank you Fr Brooks Either put up some proof that a decision to not join the Big East in 1978 is the cause of flat admissions figures in 2017, or just give it a rest. What events of the 1940's had an impact on your decision to apply to HC? I think that the College could do a better job in recruiting students, but I am not sure that the basketball schedule has anything to do with it. FWIW, my senior in high school daughter had no interest in HC or Trinity because she sees them as "jock" schools. Does that make you feel better? Funny you should say that, but the brightest high school seniors I speak to (who are applying BC/GT/ND w/VU as safety) tend to think of HC as a sort of 'pretty good jock/social justice school', rather than a place for academics and the academically oriented. This group essentially no longer applies to HC. Yes, the FB/BB teams are underperforming; but the large percentage of varsity student athletes on campus, the vast disparity between academic and athletic scholarships, and the recent athletic facility expansion all reinforce that 'pretty good jock/social justice school' reputation. Honestly, when those high achieving students take a quick look at the admission stats, that reputation is reinforced. And they see right thru the 'test score optional' gambit. Perhaps that ('a pretty good jock/social justice school') is our niche and current reputation, and that may account for any declines in admissions and applicant stats. BTW, a frank discussion with a NMF high school senior about 10 years ago - reinforced by talks with high school guidance counselors - clued me in on HC's changing/changed reputation.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 20, 2017 6:14:31 GMT -5
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Post by alum on Mar 20, 2017 7:41:34 GMT -5
Either put up some proof that a decision to not join the Big East in 1978 is the cause of flat admissions figures in 2017, or just give it a rest. What events of the 1940's had an impact on your decision to apply to HC? I think that the College could do a better job in recruiting students, but I am not sure that the basketball schedule has anything to do with it. FWIW, my senior in high school daughter had no interest in HC or Trinity because she sees them as "jock" schools. Does that make you feel better? Funny you should say that, but the brightest high school seniors I speak to (who are applying BC/GT/ND w/VU as safety) tend to think of HC as a sort of 'pretty good jock/social justice school', rather than a place for academics and the academically oriented. This group essentially no longer applies to HC. Yes, the FB/BB teams are underperforming; but the large percentage of varsity student athletes on campus, the vast disparity between academic and athletic scholarships, and the recent athletic facility expansion all reinforce that 'pretty good jock/social justice school' reputation. Honestly, when those high achieving students take a quick look at the admission stats, that reputation is reinforced. And they see right thru the 'test score optional' gambit. Perhaps that ('a pretty good jock/social justice school') is our niche and current reputation, and that may account for any declines in admissions and applicant stats. BTW, a frank discussion with a NMF high school senior about 10 years ago - reinforced by talks with high school guidance counselors - clued me in on HC's changing/changed reputation. 1. What's "NMF?" I don't know that acronym. 2. Based upon attendance at games, I don't think that HC ought to be considered a jock school. I think that my daughter is wrong about this. Her exposure to HC is, due to my interest, a lot about athletics so I understand where she is coming from. 3. Not sure that HC and Villanova are much different in applicant pool. www.princetonreview.com/schools/1023831/college/villanova-universitywww.princetonreview.com/schools/1023599/college/college-holy-cross4. I think that HC has a few challenges. The first is location. There is nothing that can be done about that. The second is that it is strictly undergraduate. Some, for whatever reason, view that as a negative. The third is lack of a business program. While I view that as a strength, there are parents out that that cannot be persuaded that it is about mid career earnings, not the first job. Fourth, is the relative lack of merit money. I know families with incomes in the $150,000 to $200,000 range and one kid in college who want merit money and whose very bright kids go to schools that give out lots of it. (Worst scenario was a girl who was third in my oldest's son's class. First two kids in the class went Ivy. She went to Quinnipiac over HC because the merit money was full tuition.) Finally, our peer schools from a size and curriculum standpoint are the NESCAC's, Colgate and Bucknell. I think that some of the kids we need to attract, like New England preppies, are scared off by the Catholic part of it. ND, BC and Gtown are big universities. They attract a different kind of kid. 5. We are, I would agree, a niche school. The niche, unfortunately, is getting smaller as Catholic high schools decline. I think kids can get a great education at HC but they need to be attracted. I remain unconvinced that HC is doing a good job in that regard.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 20, 2017 8:14:03 GMT -5
Funny you should say that, but the brightest high school seniors I speak to (who are applying BC/GT/ND w/VU as safety) tend to think of HC as a sort of 'pretty good jock/social justice school', rather than a place for academics and the academically oriented. This group essentially no longer applies to HC. Yes, the FB/BB teams are underperforming; but the large percentage of varsity student athletes on campus, the vast disparity between academic and athletic scholarships, and the recent athletic facility expansion all reinforce that 'pretty good jock/social justice school' reputation. Honestly, when those high achieving students take a quick look at the admission stats, that reputation is reinforced. And they see right thru the 'test score optional' gambit. Perhaps that ('a pretty good jock/social justice school') is our niche and current reputation, and that may account for any declines in admissions and applicant stats. BTW, a frank discussion with a NMF high school senior about 10 years ago - reinforced by talks with high school guidance counselors - clued me in on HC's changing/changed reputation. 1. What's "NMF?" I don't know that acronym. 2. Based upon attendance at games, I don't think that HC ought to be considered a jock school. I think that my daughter is wrong about this. Her exposure to HC is, due to my interest, a lot about athletics so I understand where she is coming from. 3. Not sure that HC and Villanova are much different in applicant pool. www.princetonreview.com/schools/1023831/college/villanova-universitywww.princetonreview.com/schools/1023599/college/college-holy-cross4. I think that HC has a few challenges. The first is location. There is nothing that can be done about that. The second is that it is strictly undergraduate. Some, for whatever reason, view that as a negative. The third is lack of a business program. While I view that as a strength, there are parents out that that cannot be persuaded that it is about mid career earnings, not the first job. Fourth, is the relative lack of merit money. I know families with incomes in the $150,000 to $200,000 range and one kid in college who want merit money and whose very bright kids go to schools that give out lots of it. (Worst scenario was a girl who was third in my oldest's son's class. First two kids in the class went Ivy. She went to Quinnipiac over HC because the merit money was full tuition.) Finally, our peer schools from a size and curriculum standpoint are the NESCAC's, Colgate and Bucknell. I think that some of the kids we need to attract, like New England preppies, are scared off by the Catholic part of it. ND, BC and Gtown are big universities. They attract a different kind of kid. 5. We are, I would agree, a niche school. The niche, unfortunately, is getting smaller as Catholic high schools decline. I think kids can get a great education at HC but they need to be attracted. I remain unconvinced that HC is doing a good job in that regard. NMF is National Merit Finalist. Some schools offer money to these folks (Fordham gives full tuition scholarships to every NMF who applies - for example; Holy Cross gives zero money to these students. HC has none of these highest achieving kids, Fordham pulls about 20 a year and Harvard (no money obviously) about 200 a year) . I don't-and even as a student 30 years ago did not - see any broad NESCAC overlap, HC's pool was always the Catholic pool. Still is, IMHO, just a lower tiered Catholic group. [ I agree the sports crowds are small and VU/HC is an applicant overlap. VU being the more selective of the two.
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Post by alum on Mar 20, 2017 8:31:55 GMT -5
1. What's "NMF?" I don't know that acronym. 2. Based upon attendance at games, I don't think that HC ought to be considered a jock school. I think that my daughter is wrong about this. Her exposure to HC is, due to my interest, a lot about athletics so I understand where she is coming from. 3. Not sure that HC and Villanova are much different in applicant pool. www.princetonreview.com/schools/1023831/college/villanova-universitywww.princetonreview.com/schools/1023599/college/college-holy-cross4. I think that HC has a few challenges. The first is location. There is nothing that can be done about that. The second is that it is strictly undergraduate. Some, for whatever reason, view that as a negative. The third is lack of a business program. While I view that as a strength, there are parents out that that cannot be persuaded that it is about mid career earnings, not the first job. Fourth, is the relative lack of merit money. I know families with incomes in the $150,000 to $200,000 range and one kid in college who want merit money and whose very bright kids go to schools that give out lots of it. (Worst scenario was a girl who was third in my oldest's son's class. First two kids in the class went Ivy. She went to Quinnipiac over HC because the merit money was full tuition.) Finally, our peer schools from a size and curriculum standpoint are the NESCAC's, Colgate and Bucknell. I think that some of the kids we need to attract, like New England preppies, are scared off by the Catholic part of it. ND, BC and Gtown are big universities. They attract a different kind of kid. 5. We are, I would agree, a niche school. The niche, unfortunately, is getting smaller as Catholic high schools decline. I think kids can get a great education at HC but they need to be attracted. I remain unconvinced that HC is doing a good job in that regard. NMF is National Merit Finalist. Some schools offer money to these folks (Fordham gives full tuition scholarships to every NMF who applies - for example; Holy Cross gives zero money to these students. HC has none of these highest achieving kids, Fordham pulls about 20 a year and Harvard (no money obviously) about 200 a year) . I don't-and even as a student 30 years ago did not - see any broad NESCAC overlap, HC's pool was always the Catholic pool. Still is, IMHO, just a lower tiered Catholic group. Colgate's ability to retain, in fact enhance, it's academic reputation over the last 40 years is indeed an interesting case. Their current USNWR rankings really reflect that. They didn't attemp the 'test score optional' gambit. I don't see a significant HC overlap w/Colgate for student admissions so they are not really competitors for the same students. In making the comparison to the NESCAC's, I did not mean to suggest that there is an application overlap. In fact, I think that the lack of the overlap is the weakness in HC recruiting. We are similar to those schools in that they are primarily or exclusively small undergraduate liberal arts colleges with ivy covered walls in New England. They send lots of kids to med school/law school. I would like to attract more of those kids who might be full pay and whose parents have already demonstrated a willingness to pay big bucks for education so that there will be more money for financial aid for middle class and poorer kids. Thanks for defining NMF. I should have figured that out. Fordham's merit money for those kids is an example of the challenge we face in attracting superstar kids when we don't give much of that money. I think that I would focus merit money on a small number of the very best including NMF's and class valedictorians and salutatorians. If we advertised that we gave some good sized awards to those kids, we might get more to look at the school. I remain convinced that if we get kids on campus, we can get them to apply.
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Post by CHC8485 on Mar 20, 2017 8:46:23 GMT -5
Either put up some proof that a decision to not join the Big East in 1978 is the cause of flat admissions figures in 2017, or just give it a rest. What events of the 1940's had an impact on your decision to apply to HC? I think that the College could do a better job in recruiting students, but I am not sure that the basketball schedule has anything to do with it. FWIW, my senior in high school daughter had no interest in HC or Trinity because she sees them as "jock" schools. Does that make you feel better? Funny you should say that, but the brightest high school seniors I speak to (who are applying BC/GT/ND w/VU as safety) tend to think of HC as a sort of 'pretty good jock/social justice school', rather than a place for academics and the academically oriented. This group essentially no longer applies to HC. Yes, the FB/BB teams are underperforming; but the large percentage of varsity student athletes on campus, the vast disparity between academic and athletic scholarships, and the recent athletic facility expansion all reinforce that 'pretty good jock/social justice school' reputation. Honestly, when those high achieving students take a quick look at the admission stats, that reputation is reinforced. And they see right thru the 'test score optional' gambit. Perhaps that ('a pretty good jock/social justice school') is our niche and current reputation, and that may account for any declines in admissions and applicant stats. BTW, a frank discussion with a NMF high school senior about 10 years ago - reinforced by talks with high school guidance counselors - clued me in on HC's changing/changed reputation. Have you had a frank discussion of your concerns with any members of the Holy Cross administration or Board of Trustees? You said you are a little earlier than Class of '87, which means you were likely on campus at the same time as I (Fall 1981 - May 1985). There are multiple classmates from that era ('82 - '85) on the BOT who would be glad to discuss it with you, especially if you have a child considering Holy Cross - or are just an alum with a high school student who is concerned. You will likely get a more thorough and informed discussion than you will here. As a parent of a recent Holy Cross graduate '16 and a current Holy Cross student ('19) my experience has been that they are willing and open to talk frankly when approached. They may tell you that a "pretty good jock/social justice school" is exactly what their vision of the school is - doubtful on the "pretty good jock" reputation; quite possible on the social justice reputation - but at least you'll know and you may find out they share your concerns or are happy with the direction the school has taken. Finally, I know you're new here - don't know if you participated in the prior incarnation of this board - but between the 2 boards, we've rehashed the test optional policy so many times (at least 2x per year since it was first announced) that for most of us, it's old hat. You won't get much more discussion going as we've been through it and heard it before. The policy is what it is and, I'm guessing here becasue it doesn't bother me enough to ask, the BOT is seeing the results they anticipated from the move.
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Post by matunuck on Mar 20, 2017 8:53:26 GMT -5
Our inability to grow and geographically diversify our application base is primarily the result of decisions HC has made, not because of outside factors we can't control -- same for our athletic program. There are quite a few "jock" schools with strong academic reps.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 20, 2017 10:50:46 GMT -5
NMF is National Merit Finalist. Some schools offer money to these folks (Fordham gives full tuition scholarships to every NMF who applies - for example; Holy Cross gives zero money to these students. HC has none of these highest achieving kids, Fordham pulls about 20 a year and Harvard (no money obviously) about 200 a year) . I don't-and even as a student 30 years ago did not - see any broad NESCAC overlap, HC's pool was always the Catholic pool. Still is, IMHO, just a lower tiered Catholic group. In making the comparison to the NESCAC's, I did not mean to suggest that there is an application overlap. In fact, I think that the lack of the overlap is the weakness in HC recruiting. We are similar to those schools in that they are primarily or exclusively small undergraduate liberal arts colleges with ivy covered walls in New England. They send lots of kids to med school/law school. I would like to attract more of those kids who might be full pay and whose parents have already demonstrated a willingness to pay big bucks for education so that there will be more money for financial aid for middle class and poorer kids. Thanks for defining NMF. I should have figured that out. Fordham's merit money for those kids is an example of the challenge we face in attracting superstar kids when we don't give much of that money. I think that I would focus merit money on a small number of the very best including NMF's and class valedictorians and salutatorians. If we advertised that we gave some good sized awards to those kids, we might get more to look at the school. I remain convinced that if we get kids on campus, we can get them to apply. You are making excellent points here - I misinterpreted your commentary on NESCAC-type students. The key, of course, is the means and will to attract them and the highest academic achievers.
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Post by HC1843 on Mar 20, 2017 14:25:26 GMT -5
I do not see the run ons. That comma use is optional. Whenever you see a sentence that takes up more than two or three lines, you almost assuredly have a run on. There are at least two run ons in the portion of the letter we can see. No, that comma use is not optional. The phrases are nonrestrictive and can be removed without altering the meaning of the sentences. Those portions are nice little flourishes that just so happen to make the sentences even more meandering. Cheers.
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Post by hchoops on Mar 20, 2017 14:57:09 GMT -5
length of the sentence does not equal run on. see Dickens and many other great writers. We will have to agree to disagree about the commas. the sentences may be meandering,( as many great writers have been accused of), but again, that does not make them ungrammatical
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Post by HC1843 on Mar 20, 2017 15:02:43 GMT -5
length of the sentence does not equal run on. see Dickens and many other great writers. We will have to agree to disagree about the commas. the sentences may be meandering,( as many great writers have been accused of), but again, that does not make them ungrammatical This is not The Grapes of Wrath or The Odyssey, it is an acceptance letter. Anyway, you can disagree about the grammar. Run ons are not per se incorrect, they are simply sloppy in this context. The commas are another matter entirely. We can move on. Cheers.
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Post by hchoops on Mar 20, 2017 15:13:44 GMT -5
before I move on Steinbeck and Homer did not write run ons. They wrote long, grammatically correct sentences. Run ons are one of the 2 MAJOR sentence structure errors, and definitely incorrect, (as I have written on my students' papers for 50 years). the other is fragments.
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Post by CHC8485 on Mar 20, 2017 15:32:16 GMT -5
Not that I've ever read a contract you've drawn up or a legal brief you've written, HC1843, but I find it just a little ironic that a lawyer is criticizing run on sentences.
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Post by HC1843 on Mar 20, 2017 16:18:46 GMT -5
before I move on Steinbeck and Homer did not write run ons. They wrote long, grammatically correct sentences. Run ons are one of the 2 MAJOR sentence structure errors, and definitely incorrect, (as I have written on my students' papers for 50 years). the other is fragments. :-)
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Post by HC1843 on Mar 20, 2017 16:21:14 GMT -5
Not that I've ever read a contract you've drawn up or a legal brief you've written, HC1843, but I find it just a little ironic that a lawyer is criticizing run on sentences. We abhor run ons, as well as long, grammatically correct sentences. Cheers.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 20, 2017 17:33:54 GMT -5
140 characters is the new standard. The acceptance letter reads as if it is a compilation of boilerplate sentences, individually chosen and included to match the accepted students profile. _______________________________
As has been noted, we discussed the perceived failings of HC admissions on the old board, and at length.
One of my main, current complaints is that I understood that Ann had been given specific direction to increase the geographic diversity of the enrolling classes, and that a specific numerical goal, expressed as a percentage, had been set for international students.
Based on the limited statistics for the class of 2020, Ann failed to achieve either objective, and, in fact, the class of 2020 was less geographically diverse than the class of 2019. Regression to the old days and the old ways.
I am convinced that if it wasn't for athletics, geographic diversity would indeed be a hollow effort on the part of admissions.
If Ann can't carry out the policies of the college, then she should retire.
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Post by CHC8485 on Mar 20, 2017 17:48:56 GMT -5
Not that I've ever read a contract you've drawn up or a legal brief you've written, HC1843, but I find it just a little ironic that a lawyer is criticizing run on sentences. We abhor run ons, as well as long, grammatically correct sentences. Cheers. You, as a Holy Cross educated lawyer, yes. But based on correspondence I've had with other lawyers ... run on maybe, long grammatically correct sentences, not so much.
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Post by sarasota on Mar 20, 2017 19:36:58 GMT -5
Promote AMcD into a job without portfolio. I still think "she has pictures."
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Post by ncaam on Mar 21, 2017 5:26:47 GMT -5
Clumsy writing style, imho.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 21, 2017 10:43:13 GMT -5
Our inability to grow and geographically diversify our application base is primarily the result of decisions HC has made, not because of outside factors we can't control -- same for our athletic program. There are quite a few "jock" schools with strong academic reps. HC's rather large percentage of varsity athletes (32% if Forbes is to be believed) might contribute ( along with other important factors including admission statistics) to the view of it as a jock school rather than a school strong in athletic participation and academics. ND, BC, GT, VU stand at about 10 - 12%. (Of course HC's student body size is a factor in this percentage and there are many factors involved in 'reputation'. I have no idea if HC's current reputation impacts our application totals one way or another.)
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Post by rickii on Mar 21, 2017 11:36:43 GMT -5
140 characters is the new standard. The acceptance letter reads as if it is a compilation of boilerplate sentences, individually chosen and included to match the accepted students profile. _______________________________ As has been noted, we discussed the perceived failings of HC admissions on the old board, and at length. One of my main, current complaints is that I understood that Ann had been given specific direction to increase the geographic diversity of the enrolling classes, and that a specific numerical goal, expressed as a percentage, had been set for international students.Based on the limited statistics for the class of 2020, Ann failed to achieve either objective, and, in fact, the class of 2020 was less geographically diverse than the class of 2019. Regression to the old days and the old ways. I am convinced that if it wasn't for athletics, geographic diversity would indeed be a hollow effort on the part of admissions. If Ann can't carry out the policies of the college, then she should retire. Was the diversity of the qualified application pool sufficient to carry out a realistic increase in geographic diversity ?
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Post by rickii on Mar 21, 2017 11:42:46 GMT -5
Our inability to grow and geographically diversify our application base is primarily the result of decisions HC has made, not because of outside factors we can't control -- same for our athletic program. There are quite a few "jock" schools with strong academic reps. HC's rather large percentage of varsity athletes (32% if Forbes is to be believed) might contribute ( along with other important factors including admission statistics) to the view of it as a jock school rather than a school strong in athletic participation and academics. ND, BC, GT, VU stand at about 10 - 12%. (Of course HC's student body size is a factor in this percentage and there are many factors involved in 'reputation'. I have no idea if HC's current reputation impacts our application totals one way or another.) I have to giggle a bit at HC being viewed by anyone as a 'jock' school these days.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 21, 2017 11:56:57 GMT -5
HC's rather large percentage of varsity athletes (32% if Forbes is to be believed) might contribute ( along with other important factors including admission statistics) to the view of it as a jock school rather than a school strong in athletic participation and academics. ND, BC, GT, VU stand at about 10 - 12%. (Of course HC's student body size is a factor in this percentage and there are many factors involved in 'reputation'. I have no idea if HC's current reputation impacts our application totals one way or another.) I have to giggle a bit at HC being viewed by anyone as a 'jock' school these days. Me too. Considering the 'crowds' at the games and the won-losses in FB and BB. That is why I wrote 'a school strong in athletic participation'.
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Post by matunuck on Mar 21, 2017 11:57:19 GMT -5
I agree Rick. In my experience chatting with folks in Northern Virginia, the image of HC as a "jock school" is nowhere to be found, and I highly doubt such a perception is broad-based elsewhere.
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