|
Post by sarasota on Mar 23, 2017 7:28:31 GMT -5
crossbball- "Continuous improvement," which is a vital objective, requires continual search for things that aren't being done as well as they could. You interpret that as being negative.
|
|
|
Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 23, 2017 8:21:18 GMT -5
crossbball- "Continuous improvement," which is a vital objective, requires continual search for things that aren't being done as well as they could. You interpret that as being negative. TQM! Not covered by a course in the HC curriculum, so may be alien to hcbball21 __________________________________________________ Comparative admissions stats for the class of 2020.Total apps / total enrolled / Early Decision apps / % ED apps enrolled / ED % of total enrolled / # enrolled off wait list
Holy Cross 6693 / 765 / 477 / 73% / 45% / 14 Lafayette 8123 / 649 / 686 / 49% / 52% / 5 Colgate 8394 / 766 / 686 / 49% / 44% / 32 Bucknell 10487 / 950 / 746 / 60% / 47% / 65 Enrolled percent submitting SAT/ACT / Percent submitting HS rank / Interview?HC 61% / 27% / very important Lafayette 114% / 30% / important Colgate 100% / 25% / not considered Bucknell 112% / 20% / not considered Comments: > HC's acceptance rate of early decision applicants is atypically high. But all four schools rely on ED to fill nearly half the class. > For Lafayette, Colgate, and Bucknell, some applicants submitted both SAT & ACT This is likely the case for HC as well. HC is only school of the four with SAT optional. > HC is the only school of the four not to provide data on high school GPA. > As HC doesn't provide data on HS GPA, the only data against which to assess HC competitiveness are high school rankings (which only 27 percent submit) and SAT/ACT scores, submitted by less than 60 percent. Its likely that the SAT values, if submitted for the entire enrolled class, would be lower than the profiled values. > HC's emphasis on the importance of the interview is a disadvantage to students either not residing near HC or where HC has alumni interviewers. > Bucknell admitted over six percent of the class off the wait list. This seems quite high.
|
|
|
Post by sarasota on Mar 23, 2017 9:15:46 GMT -5
Would be interesting to see stats re acceptances.
|
|
|
Post by alum on Mar 23, 2017 9:44:47 GMT -5
Let me see if I can take this conversation in a different direction. Holy Cross has a variety of characteristics. Here are a few:
1. In Worcester, MA
2. Catholic and proud of it but without allowing Catholicism to interfere with the academic mission 3. Exclusively undergraduate
4. Almost exclusively liberal arts (can major in Accounting as part of Economics)
5. Rather expensive
6. Committed to need based financial aid as opposed to merit money
7. Division 1 in sports (although I would suggest that several sports are really treated more like D3 programs than D1)
8. No Greek life
I suspect that some of these factors appeal to some kids and turn off others. I suspect that some of these factors appeal to some bill paying parents and not others. I, for one, think that most of these are important to the College's identity and would not like to see much in the way of change. I would favor a small increase in merit money and could live with some sort of Finance concentration within the context of the Economics department. The rest, however, make Holy Cross what it is and if that product is not as in demand as it once was, the only thing we can do is try to sell it better and create the demand.
We are not the only school to have these type of difficulties. As the parent of an alumna of a Seven Sisters college (and a second daughter who may attend one as well) I can tell you that the acceptance rates at those schools are pretty high. That said, the quality of applicants is also pretty high and the available liberal arts education is strong. They suffer from the fact that close to half of the available candidates are not eligible to apply and that many others self select out by not being willing to even give them a look. The single sex nature of women's colleges are both an asset and a liability in attracting a great class. Our challenge is not as high as the one they face, but I want alma mater to fight to convince people that its offerings are sensational.
|
|
|
Post by hcpride on Mar 23, 2017 10:52:14 GMT -5
Let me see if I can take this conversation in a different direction. Holy Cross has a variety of characteristics. Here are a few: 1. In Worcester, MA 2. Catholic and proud of it but without allowing Catholicism to interfere with the academic mission 3. Exclusively undergraduate 4. Almost exclusively liberal arts (can major in Accounting as part of Economics) 5. Rather expensive 6. Committed to need based financial aid as opposed to merit money 7. Division 1 in sports (although I would suggest that several sports are really treated more like D3 programs than D1) 8. No Greek life Gotta disagree with #6. Holy Cross is very committed to giving merit money... when the merit is athletic. They are quite generous with athletic scholarships (60+ full athletic scholarships in football alone.). I do agree they are essentially against merit money for academic scholarships. This has not gone unnoticed to academically-oriented potential applicants. Can't disagree with the others (for better or for worse).
|
|
|
Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 23, 2017 11:07:23 GMT -5
Would be interesting to see stats re acceptances. Acceptances / percent of total applicantsHC 2574 / 38.5% Lafayette 2298 / 28.2% Colgate 2416 / 28.8% Bucknell 3148 / 30.0% _______________________ BC 9017 / 31% Villanova 7514 / 43.5% Both BC and Villanova have Early Action, which is not binding, rather than Early Decision.
|
|
|
Post by hcpride on Mar 23, 2017 11:22:02 GMT -5
TQM! Not covered by a course in the HC curriculum, so may be alien to hcbball21 __________________________________________________ Comparative admissions stats for the class of 2020.Total apps / total enrolled / Early Decision apps / % ED apps enrolled / ED % of total enrolled / # enrolled off wait list
Holy Cross 6693 / 765 / 477 / 73% / 45% / 14 Lafayette 8123 / 649 / 686 / 49% / 52% / 5 Colgate 8394 / 766 / 686 / 49% / 44% / 32 Bucknell 10487 / 950 / 746 / 60% / 47% / 65 Enrolled percent submitting SAT/ACT / Percent submitting HS rank / Interview?HC 61% / 27% / very important Lafayette 114% / 30% / important Colgate 100% / 25% / not considered Bucknell 112% / 20% / not considered Comments: > HC's acceptance rate of early decision applicants is atypically high. But all four schools rely on ED to fill nearly half the class. > For Lafayette, Colgate, and Bucknell, some applicants submitted both SAT & ACT This is likely the case for HC as well. HC is only school of the four with SAT optional. > HC is the only school of the four not to provide data on high school GPA. > As HC doesn't provide data on HS GPA, the only data against which to assess HC competitiveness are high school rankings (which only 27 percent submit) and SAT/ACT scores, submitted by less than 60 percent. Its likely that the SAT values, if submitted for the entire enrolled class, would be lower than the profiled values. > HC's emphasis on the importance of the interview is a disadvantage to students either not residing near HC or where HC has alumni interviewers. > Bucknell admitted over six percent of the class off the wait list. This seems quite high. 61% is actually written on CDS as 38% submitted SAT and 23% submitted ACT. The numbers given via CDS do not suggest a completely different set of enrolled students submitted the SAT while a completely different second set of enrolled students submitted the ACT. That may be why they (CDS) does not/cannot combine the numbers. I don't think you can/should combine them either since (as you note) a substantial number of students may submit both. And I agree that common sense suggests the highest scoring students are the ones who tend to report them. Thus skewing the average score upwards. I have seen high school counselors and savy students/parents take a close look at these 'test school optional' quirks.
|
|
|
Post by matunuck on Mar 23, 2017 11:26:43 GMT -5
HC should form a committee to examine our admissions process and set goals for the next decade. We still have way too many students from one state and not nearly enough geographic diversity. This is a ongoing problem and we've made no headway for many years. The committee should consist of a large majority of folks not employed by HC and not involved with past decisions that currently govern our admissions process. Will it happen? I'd be shocked, but we really need some fresh thinking that allows folks to challenge the group-think on Mt. Saint James.
|
|
|
Post by CHC8485 on Mar 23, 2017 12:17:12 GMT -5
crossbball- "Continuous improvement," which is a vital objective, requires continual search for things that aren't being done as well as they could. You interpret that as being negative. TQM! Not covered by a course in the HC curriculum, so may be alien to hcbball21 __________________________________________________ Comparative admissions stats for the class of 2020.Total apps / total enrolled / Early Decision apps / % ED apps enrolled / ED % of total enrolled / # enrolled off wait list
Holy Cross 6693 / 765 / 477 / 73% / 45% / 14 Lafayette 8123 / 649 / 686 / 49% / 52% / 5 Colgate 8394 / 766 / 686 / 49% / 44% / 32 Bucknell 10487 / 950 / 746 / 60% / 47% / 65 Enrolled percent submitting SAT/ACT / Percent submitting HS rank / Interview?HC 61% / 27% / very important Lafayette 114% / 30% / important Colgate 100% / 25% / not considered Bucknell 112% / 20% / not considered Comments: > HC's acceptance rate of early decision applicants is atypically high. But all four schools rely on ED to fill nearly half the class. > For Lafayette, Colgate, and Bucknell, some applicants submitted both SAT & ACT This is likely the case for HC as well. HC is only school of the four with SAT optional. > HC is the only school of the four not to provide data on high school GPA. > As HC doesn't provide data on HS GPA, the only data against which to assess HC competitiveness are high school rankings (which only 27 percent submit) and SAT/ACT scores, submitted by less than 60 percent. Its likely that the SAT values, if submitted for the entire enrolled class, would be lower than the profiled values. > HC's emphasis on the importance of the interview is a disadvantage to students either not residing near HC or where HC has alumni interviewers. > Bucknell admitted over six percent of the class off the wait list. This seems quite high. Two things with respect to the red text above In addition to continuous improvement, a key tenant of TQM is Celebrating Success. Perhaps all Crossball was trying to point out that there are some successes at Holy Cross that can be discussed and celebrated. I can possibly see how 110+ percent of applicants can submit an SAT score - if you count someone who sends their score, but doesn't ultimately submit an application, but in the spirit of continuous improvement ... how in the world can 112% or 114% of enrolled students submit SAT scores?
|
|
|
Post by Sons of Vaval on Mar 23, 2017 12:17:45 GMT -5
PP, you see how many apps Northeastern received this year?
|
|
|
Post by sarasota on Mar 23, 2017 13:13:05 GMT -5
SOV- I have always believed Boston is the best college town in the Country. In HC's website they do emphasize HC's ready access to Boston.
|
|
|
Post by hcpride on Mar 23, 2017 13:21:37 GMT -5
TQM! Not covered by a course in the HC curriculum, so may be alien to hcbball21 __________________________________________________ Comparative admissions stats for the class of 2020.Total apps / total enrolled / Early Decision apps / % ED apps enrolled / ED % of total enrolled / # enrolled off wait list
Holy Cross 6693 / 765 / 477 / 73% / 45% / 14 Lafayette 8123 / 649 / 686 / 49% / 52% / 5 Colgate 8394 / 766 / 686 / 49% / 44% / 32 Bucknell 10487 / 950 / 746 / 60% / 47% / 65 Enrolled percent submitting SAT/ACT / Percent submitting HS rank / Interview?HC 61% / 27% / very important Lafayette 114% / 30% / important Colgate 100% / 25% / not considered Bucknell 112% / 20% / not considered Comments: > HC's acceptance rate of early decision applicants is atypically high. But all four schools rely on ED to fill nearly half the class. > For Lafayette, Colgate, and Bucknell, some applicants submitted both SAT & ACT This is likely the case for HC as well. HC is only school of the four with SAT optional. > HC is the only school of the four not to provide data on high school GPA. > As HC doesn't provide data on HS GPA, the only data against which to assess HC competitiveness are high school rankings (which only 27 percent submit) and SAT/ACT scores, submitted by less than 60 percent. Its likely that the SAT values, if submitted for the entire enrolled class, would be lower than the profiled values. > HC's emphasis on the importance of the interview is a disadvantage to students either not residing near HC or where HC has alumni interviewers. > Bucknell admitted over six percent of the class off the wait list. This seems quite high. Two things with respect to the red text above In addition to continuous improvement, a key tenant of TQM is Celebrating Success. Perhaps all Crossball was trying to point out that there are some successes at Holy Cross that can be discussed and celebrated. I can possibly see how 110+ percent of applicants can submit an SAT score - if you count someone who sends their score, but doesn't ultimately submit an application, but in the spirit of continuous improvement ... how in the world can 112% or 114% of enrolled students submit SAT scores? The numbers you reference are the combined number of ACT and SAT scores submitted by the enrolled students. Some students can and do submit both. (The numbers are not really meant to be combined as I note in my above post and re-post here.): "61% is actually written on CDS as 38% submitted SAT and 23% submitted ACT. The numbers given via CDS do not suggest a completely different set of enrolled students submitted the SAT while a completely different second set of enrolled students submitted the ACT. That may be why they (CDS) does not/cannot combine the numbers. I don't think you can/should combine them either since (as you note) a substantial number of students may submit both. And I agree that common sense suggests the highest scoring students are the ones who tend to report them. Thus skewing the average score upwards. I have seen high school counselors and savy students/parents take a close look at these 'test school optional' quirks."
|
|
|
Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 23, 2017 14:36:09 GMT -5
PP, you see how many apps Northeastern received this year? I have not recently checked the apps total for NU for the class of 2021. For the class of 2020, NU had over 51,000 applicants.
|
|
|
Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 23, 2017 14:48:47 GMT -5
A reason why I think there is double counting SAT & ACT submissions is that looking at Bowdoin, which became SAT optional before HC did, reported that 98 percent of the class of 2021 submitted standardized test scores. The 98 percent comes from adding the percentage of those submitting SAT and the percentage submitting ACT.
Bates, another long-time SAT optional school, reported that 52% submitted SAT, and 39% submitted ACT. (The Bates President chaired HC's re-accreditation committee).
And if there is no double counting, compare Bates to HC' 38 percent submitting SAT, and 23 percent submitting ACT. And about 20-25 percent of the HC submitters of standardized test scores would be recruited athletes, who are required to submit scores to the clearinghouse.
|
|
|
Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 23, 2017 15:42:51 GMT -5
You may want to double check on Bowdoin. I seem to recall that, while it was not required to submit test scores with your application, you did have to submit them for placement after being accepted. I could be wrong but I remember something like that from when my daughters were considering Bowdpin.
|
|
|
Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 23, 2017 16:07:42 GMT -5
You may want to double check on Bowdoin. I seem to recall that, while it was not required to submit test scores with your application, you did have to submit them for placement after being accepted. I could be wrong but I remember something like that from when my daughters were considering Bowdpin. Re: Bowdoin, excerpted from the Bowdoin CDS for the class of 2020. C8. Entrance exams A. Does your institution make use of SAT, ACT, or SAT Subject Test scores in admission decisions for first-time, first-year, degree-seeking applicants? Yes checked If yes, place check marks in the appropriate boxes below to reflect your institution’s policies for use in admission for Fall 2018. Bowdoin checked "Consider if submitted." D. In addition, does your institution use applicants' test scores for academic advising? ___X___ Yes ______ No SAT or ACT scores are not required for admission to Bowdoin. However, applicants who wish to submit their scores as part of their application should do so no later than January 1st. SAT I scores are required for home school applicants. Percent submitting SAT scores ___54%___ Percent submitting ACT scores ___44%___
|
|
|
Post by hcpride on Mar 24, 2017 6:03:57 GMT -5
Re: Bowdoin, excerpted from the Bowdoin CDS for the class of 2020. SAT or ACT scores are not required for admission to Bowdoin. However, applicants who wish to submit their scores as part of their application should do so no later than January 1st. SAT I scores are required for home school applicants. Percent submitting SAT scores ___54%___ Percent submitting ACT scores ___44%___ As noted in the case of Bowdoin, (54% SAT and/or 44% ACT), many of the upper tier test optional schools have much higher SAT and/or ACT submission statistics than HC (38% SAT and/or 23% ACT). This means HC SAT and ACT reported averages are far more influenced by the 'test score optional' inflationary effect .On another note, HC's 75% admission rate for early decision is a number that jumps off the page. This too has not gone unnoticed by prospective students and high school counselors.
|
|
|
Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 24, 2017 15:21:33 GMT -5
It would be interesting to know how much of the fin aid budget is chewed up with early decision. (That's excluding the athletic scollies.) If a relatively high percentage of the fin aid budget goes to the early decision admittances, that could have the effect of rejecting HC regular decision applicants who who are not full pay (and who may be more academically qualified than the full pays). I know, I know, HC is need-blind, but HC is also budget constrained.
And all things being equal, HC will admit a male over a similarly qualified female.
|
|
|
Post by sarasota on Mar 24, 2017 17:39:39 GMT -5
When it comes to need-blind, remember, the devil is in the details.
|
|
|
Post by hcgrad94 on Mar 24, 2017 18:26:40 GMT -5
HC should form a committee to examine our admissions process and set goals for the next decade. We still have way too many students from one state and not nearly enough geographic diversity. This is a ongoing problem and we've made no headway for many years. The committee should consist of a large majority of folks not employed by HC and not involved with past decisions that currently govern our admissions process. Will it happen? I'd be shocked, but we really need some fresh thinking that allows folks to challenge the group-think on Mt. Saint James. You should make that suggestion to a Trustee.
|
|
|
Post by hcpride on Mar 24, 2017 19:12:38 GMT -5
It would be interesting to know how much of the fin aid budget is chewed up with early decision. (That's excluding the athletic scollies.) If a relatively high percentage of the fin aid budget goes to the early decision admittances, that could have the effect of rejecting HC regular decision applicants who who are not full pay (and who may be more academically qualified than the full pays). I know, I know, HC is need-blind, but HC is also budget constrained. And all things being equal, HC will admit a male over a similarly qualified female. ED kids (except athletes) are generally better off financially than RD kids. Sometimes generally much better off. That is a general admissions truism. (The theory is the ED kids are not nearly as dependent on institutional financial aid decisions and are thus willing to enter an ED (binding decision) risk...notwithstanding any institutional claims of meeting 100% of demonstrated financial need ). So, the ED kids (many of whom are full or partial athletic merit in any case at HC ) may not be hitting the financial aid pool very hard. It does seem, from the stats, that women apply to HC at a substantially higher number than men (3.7k vs 3.0k.). Also, admitted women subsequently enroll at HC at a substantially greater rate than admitted men. ( www.holycross.edu/sites/default/files/files/planningandspecialproj/cds_2016-2017.pdf). If admissions folks are trying to keep the campus about 50/50...men have to be favored in the admissions process.
|
|
|
Post by bison137 on Mar 25, 2017 23:47:24 GMT -5
I know several students looking to go either HC, PC or Villanova. Certainly a big day for them and hoping they get into (and choose) the Cross. About 30+ years ago I was weighing BC, HC and GT and so glad I went purple. Welcome hcpride....but that basically says it all....pre-PL it was HC, BC or Gtown for a lot of kids....today it's HC, PC and Nova, and we're probably losing out out to those schools in many occasions....as our President would tweet: sad. Yes, it must be the PL that is causing this. You are delusional.
|
|
|
Post by ncaam on Mar 26, 2017 4:24:48 GMT -5
Parents and students are becoming more discerning consumers of education as they see college debt crushing many recent consumers. $60k for a liberal arts degree is not attractive any more. I happened upon a list of majors for basketball players at, iirc, Cornell and AU. Business was by far the predominant major. HC needs to up its game there or hope to survive as other liberal arts colleges go out of business. Smart athletes need better choices as well.
As a side note, the PL is not an ideal conference for us to be in.
|
|
|
Post by hcgrad94 on Mar 26, 2017 9:09:48 GMT -5
Re: Bowdoin, excerpted from the Bowdoin CDS for the class of 2020. SAT or ACT scores are not required for admission to Bowdoin. However, applicants who wish to submit their scores as part of their application should do so no later than January 1st. SAT I scores are required for home school applicants. Percent submitting SAT scores ___54%___ Percent submitting ACT scores ___44%___ As noted in the case of Bowdoin, (54% SAT and/or 44% ACT), many of the upper tier test optional schools have much higher SAT and/or ACT submission statistics than HC (38% SAT and/or 23% ACT). This means HC SAT and ACT reported averages are far more influenced by the 'test score optional' inflationary effect .On another note, HC's 75% admission rate for early decision is a number that jumps off the page. This too has not gone unnoticed by prospective students and high school counselors. ED acceptance rate so high because we take every recruited athlete ED and that's a 1-for-1 scenario.
|
|
|
Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 26, 2017 10:27:34 GMT -5
HC's application total is the lowest in the PL.
And the percentage of enrolling students compared to the number of applications is the highest in the PL.
Below is a ranked list of all PL schools, selected Greater Boston schools, several liberal arts elsewhere in the Northeast, and a few other Northeast schools between Richmond and Maine, by percentage of enrolling class as a percentage of applications. Most of the data is for the class of 2020, for a few schools its class of 2019. For the schools where I did not provide applications and enrollment data upthread, I have it included it here ___ / ____. I did not include schools in major metropolitan areas where I expect the day student enrollment is quite high (St. Peter's, Manhattan).
Fordham 42811 / 2191 5.1% Northeastern 51063 / 2676 5.2% Brown 30496 / 1615 5.3% Boston U 54781 / 3628 6.6% Colby 7593 / 508 6.7% Tufts 19223 / 1246 6.7% Middlebury 8819 / 606 6.9% Richmond 10422 / 815 7.8% Lafayette 8.0% Georgetown 19478 / 1567 8.0% BC 28956 / 2359 8.1% Wesleyan 11928 / 774 8.5% Loyola 12727 / 1095 8.6% Bucknell 9.1% Colgate 9.1% Lehigh 13403 / 1249 9.3% Fairfield 11055 / 1056 9.6% Villanova 17272 / 1677 9.7% Providence 10225 / 1033 10.1% AU 16735 / 1779 10.6% WPI 10172 / 1091 10.7% Univ of Scranton 9114 / 1001 11.0% Ithaca 14480 / 1632 11.2% HC 11.4%
Holy Cross has the fewest applicants of any of the schools listed above. Forget about national branding, it seems to be struggling with even regional branding.
What to conclude: Ann does little out-reach to develop interest? HC has developed a reputation of favoring early decision applicants, others needn't bother applying?
|
|