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Post by alum on Feb 21, 2018 12:39:42 GMT -5
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Post by hchoops on Feb 21, 2018 12:47:28 GMT -5
Thanks for the post, alum Informative
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 21, 2018 14:01:32 GMT -5
Fantastic post, alum-- the EBW story reminds me to recommend again "The Man To See", the excellent biography of our great benefactor Mr. Williams. One story has EBW in a trial (I forget whom he was representing-maybe someone famous) where there were a number of African-American jurors. He hired the famed Joe Louis to come to the trial and put his hand on the defendant's shoulder as he walked to a seat in the gallery.....
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Post by joutsHC77 on Feb 27, 2018 14:17:49 GMT -5
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Post by hcgrad94 on Feb 27, 2018 18:40:50 GMT -5
Wow what a fun group that seems like. I want to hang with them. Did I miss something or did we in fact keep the nickname? Anyone who cares if our logo is the interlocking HC on the shield needs to get a life.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 28, 2018 7:59:03 GMT -5
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Post by beaven302 on Mar 7, 2018 12:47:58 GMT -5
This story brings to mind a controversy that arose years ago about a suburban Long Island public library displaying a trophy won by the village fire department back in the 1920s, which had been awarded by the local chapter of the Ku Klux Klan. In the end, it was decided to keep displaying the trophy because it related to local history, specifically that the Klan once had a significant presence on Long Island. On the now possibly tired subject of mascots, while watching the HC-Colgate game, I noticed that CU's mascot was a doofy, cartoonish guy who was wearing a tricornered hat. This guy didn't have a dagger in his teeth, wasn't waving a cutlass, and never said "arghhh, "but is he a supposed to be a pirate? If so, has Colgate adopting the violent, homicidal ethos of the seaborne robbers of yesteryear? Of course not. He's just a mascot like the current HC crusader. People, especially those inclined toward over-wrought political correctness, shouldn't delve so much into what mascots supposedly represent.
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Post by Tom on Mar 7, 2018 15:00:08 GMT -5
This story brings to mind a controversy that arose years ago about a suburban Long Island public library displaying a trophy won by the village fire department back in the 1920s, which had been awarded by the local chapter of the Ku Klux Klan. In the end, it was decided to keep displaying the trophy because it related to local history, specifically that the Klan once had a significant presence on Long Island. On the now possibly tired subject of mascots, while watching the HC-Colgate game, I noticed that CU's mascot was a doofy, cartoonish guy who was wearing a tricornered hat. This guy didn't have a dagger in his teeth, wasn't waving a cutlass, and never said "arghhh, "but is he a supposed to be a pirate? If so, has Colgate adopting the violent, homicidal ethos of the seaborne robbers of yesteryear? Of course not. He's just a mascot like the current HC crusader. People, especially those inclined toward over-wrought political correctness, shouldn't delve so much into what mascots supposedly represent. Perhaps the Red Raiders are planning violent attacks against water traffic on the finger lakes
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Post by crusader12 on Mar 14, 2018 16:04:19 GMT -5
WHAT A DISGRACE! SHAME ON YOU HOLY CROSS!!!!
Over the coming months, the College will gradually phase out the use of all knight-related imagery. Moving forward, the College will use the interlocking HC on a purple shield, currently the secondary athletics logo, as the primary marker for all athletic teams, uniforms and advertising. This also means we will retire our costumed mascot. I understand these decisions will be a disappointment to some of you but I trust our community’s support for Holy Cross and for our athletic teams will continue unwaveringly.
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Post by Ray on Mar 14, 2018 16:09:41 GMT -5
Well, this is disappointing. Much further than I thought they would take this... thought we'd lose the sword, not the entire Crusader.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Mar 14, 2018 16:20:09 GMT -5
So, what's our mascot? Pathetic. Weak.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 14, 2018 16:40:35 GMT -5
Some on this thread (about a month ago) wrote that the crusader mascot and crusader image was now essentially settled and that the controversy would simply die out. Others cautioned the issue was not settled and that the crusader = hate folks would continue their pressure and ultimately prevail. The power of the crusader=hate equation is not to be underestimated in this PC and millennial age. As we now see.
No chance the crusader=hate crowd will stand for the continued use of the crusader moniker. That is next.
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Post by sader98 on Mar 14, 2018 17:06:58 GMT -5
Disappointed but not even a little surprised. Even more disappointing to me is how this insitution expends it’s energy on issues like this while seemingly failing to see the forest through the trees (academic reputation, athletic success, etc.)
This school needs to figure out what it is and/or wants to be and own it. Pretty soon any passion this decision evoked will be replaced by apathy if it hasn’t been already.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 14, 2018 18:49:31 GMT -5
Why are people surprised? The Chair of the BoT, after the decision was announced during the weekend that the Bot met to discuss the matter of the nickname and mascot, basically declared that the medieval knight mascot was gone. As I recall his phrasing, the college was not going to associate crusader with the medieval crusades. _____________
I have posted here in the past about several of 'my' ancestral relatives went on several of the crusades, and led armies on the First Crusade. Since those postings, I have discovered another part of the family who went on the First Crusade -- the de Hautevilles. These were 'my' uncles by marriage.
Eleven of my uncles hired out as mercenaries in the early 11th Century. They were in the employ of towns and cities of southern Italy, enlisted to defend against the Saracens, who occupied Sicily. The Norman numbers grew, and within several decades, they controlled (owned) all of southern Italy.
This Norman enclave gradually expanded northward, alarming the Pope [St.] Leo IX, who feared that the Normans were approaching the lands of the Papal States. (The Papal States were a gift to the pope by Charlemagne's father, Pepin the Short, in 756. Pepin was the son of Charles Martel.)
Urged on by the Byzantine emperor, Constantine IX, Pope Leo IX gathered an army of papal forces, mercenaries from Swabia and Switzerland, and numerous Italian nobles. A small Byzantine army also allied itself with the Papal coalition.
The battle of Civitatis in June 1053 lasted a day. Though greatly outnumbered, the Normans annihilated the Pope's army and captured the Pope. Leo IX was imprisoned for ten months, treated 'respectfully', and was released in March 1054, dying two weeks after his release. One is free to draw conclusions as to the Pope's health at the time of his release.
Leo IX was succeeded by Victor II, who was pope for two years. Victor let the Normans be. On his death, he was succeeded by Stephen IX. Stephen IX was planning to move against the Normans in southern Italy, when he was suddenly stricken ill, and died. He had been Pope for eight months. There was no CSI at the time.
The college of cardinals met and elected Benedict X as Pope. A faction of the college of cardinals rejected the election of Benedict, asserting that the cardinals favoring Benedict had been bribed. The dissenting cardinals were forced to flee Rome, and gathered in Siena where they chose Nicholas II as Pope.
The Normans allied with Nicholas, and moved against Benedict, forcing him to flee. Nichholas and the Normans cornered Benedict at Galeria, compelling him to surrender and renounce his papacy.
Nicholas then signed a compact with the Normans, awarding them southern Italy (the duchy of Apulia). Nicholas urged the Normans to drive the Saracens out of Sicily which they did, creating, for themselves the Kingdom of Sicily.
The sons of the de Hauteville 'uncles' led an army during the First Crusade. Their interest appears to have been Antioch, not Jerusalem. Following the siege of Antioch, the de Hautevilles established the Kingdom of Antioch, which lasted for about 250 years. To me, the de Hautevilles were more interested in acquiring territory, than in restoring the holy sites in Jerusalem to Christian control.. The relic, the Holy Lance, is associated with the siege of Antioch.
One generation of de Hautevilles annihilates a papal army and imprisons the pope, and the succeeding generation goes on a crusade. Which generation would you care to emulate as a knight / crusader?.
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Post by ncaam on Mar 14, 2018 19:14:55 GMT -5
PP, why are you surprised? Didn't you see this reaction coming? For the sins of your forebears you should be in prayer every moment of the day. I carry no such guilt.
Sent this email to the college. It acknowledged receipt.
Fr Boroughs,
You have taken political correctness to a new level. The Crusaders fought back the Muslim hordes of an earlier time. The Crusaders committed atrocities no doubt. Not unlike Hiroshima, My Lai and Abu Ghraib of our era. The Church sent them off on a noble mission that saved Western Civilization, including Spain, where the Jesuits began. No Crusades, no Jesuits.
Should not the Cross which the Crusaders wore on their breast plates, the Catholic Church and the Jesuits be the next to go? Are these institutions pure in all things or have they sinned as well? Of course we are all sinners. Did not Inigo run through a Saracen with his sword for not converting?
Should we not change the college name too? Perhaps Pakachoag Hill College, the Rockets?
No need to respond to this missive. Time for me to go. Please remove me from all communications from the College of the Holy Cross. Further communication with the College is not desired.
ncaam
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 15, 2018 6:36:15 GMT -5
HC70, why should I be doing penance for the sins of my forebearers? Is there some new doctrine of which I am unaware?
The question of whether the de Hauteville knights or the de Hauteville crusaders should be emulated is not answered simply..
My bet is that the church would choose the knights. The line of succession from Peter to Francis goes through Nicholas II. Nicholas II, in reality, began as an anti-pope who became pope only through an alliance he forged with the Normans. The faction of cardinals who did not vote for Benedict (the losing faction) alleged that the conclave had been guided not by the Holy Spirit, but by purses of gold.
And Benedict would have remained pope without the army of the de Hautevilles forcing him to flee, chasing him down, and finally forcing him to capitulate. Benedict had no papal army to speak of; the pope's army having been annihilated by the de Hautevilles five years prior.
If the de Hautevilles had no qualms about imprisoning St. Leo IX, they surely would have no qualms about imprisoning Benedict. And they might not have treated him 'respectfully'.
From the church's standpoint, the de Hauteville knights were the good guys -- their actions guided by the Holy Spirit -- as they overthrew a pope who supposedly had secured the papacy through lucre.
And that is why a Catholic institution ought to stay distant from medieval knights and crusaders. __________________________________
As for the cross, the college was named after the Church (later Cathedral) of the Holy Cross in Boston. My bet is that the Church of the Holy Cross was named for the Eglise de Sainte-Croix on Ile de la Cite in Paris. While Bishop Cheverus was completing his seminary studies just down the street so to speak from the Eglise de Sainte-Croix de la Cite, the church was closed by the Jacobins during the French Revolution. Nearly all the other churches on Ile de la Cite were similarly seized and closed. Cheverus was quickly ordained as the seminary was also being closed by the Jacobins. Following his ordination, he immediately fled France for England, and thereafter emigrated to Boston. The Eglise de Sainte-Croix and most of the shuttered Ile de la Cite churches were torn down several years later.. The Eglise de Sainte-Croix de la Cite had a venerated relic of the 'true cross', which was why it was so named. That relic arrived in Paris before any of the crusades. The 'true cross' was supposedly found by the mother of the emperor Constantine. I believe Cheverus chose Holy Cross as the name for his church in Boston as a defiant statement against the excesses of the French Revolution. The other destroyed Ile de la Cite churches were named after saints, whose names would not translate/transfer well to a church in Boston. E.g., the Eglise Saint-Germain-le-Vieux, closed in 1790, sold in 1796, and demolished.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Mar 15, 2018 8:54:52 GMT -5
PP-- your lineage is impressive. True to your roots on this board as a master of statistics and logic, you take the moniker of Crusader or knight to its literal, ancestral roots.
If any mascot is taken so seriously, you will back yourself into a corner of sin, scandal, or at a minimum, intrigue. ncaam's e-mail to the board, while probably at the extreme end of the reaction, calls out a point many of us anti-PC-ers would hail: where does one draw the line?
ncaam recommends Rockets as a mascot if we became Pakachoag College. Well, rockets explode and kill people (Challenger, to name one) or destroy money and treasure (2015 SpaceX explosion). Pirates killed people and take oil tankers for ransom off the Somali coast. Hurricanes kill people and ruin entire regions of the country. "Redmen" is offensive, and Red Storms knock down power lines. People had to throw out a whole week of groceries after the nor'easters up here! Eagles callously murder and eat fish alive. Dogs chase cats. And so on.
The point is not to take it so seriously. Why can't a mascot be used as a half-serious symbol for motivation, distinct from other colleges? Why can't we pick the best qualities of what a child, who may very well dress up as a knight for Halloween (I did), would find in a mascot? A knight can be chivalrous, loyal, well-trained, strong, inspiring, dutiful, and in the case of Ignatius Loyola, even a saint. Would we be appropriating the best parts of a semi-accurate culture to do so? Nobody in my neighborhood ran up to me and said "MURDERER! RACIST! MUSLIM DISCRIMINATOR!" when I dressed up as a knight 25 years ago. I suspect my father might have killed that person and put them in his trick-or-treat bag.
The biggest flaw of the Age of the Internet in my opinion is that there are too many folks who will use their spare time to nitpick and create controversy where there is none. They wave the banner of the moral high ground, holier than thou, and force the weak-minded to bend their knee. Yes, discrimination is bad. Yes, racism is bad. Yes, murder is bad. But this PC crowd uses that sentiment to straw-man opponents into agreement. It's like a twisted political debate. "He likes a knight mascot-- HE LOVES MURDER! HE WANTS TO INVADE JERUSALEM! MUSLIM HATER!"
Give me a break. I'm sad my school is involved with this nonsense. Higher learning, critical thought, skepticism, the Jesuit way of thinking... this is not.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 15, 2018 8:58:25 GMT -5
There are both "official" and unofficial mascots (like Igor of bygone days). How would the college react if someone wearing a Knight symbol (perhaps a large red cross, or helmet-like hat, etc.) went onto the court and started leading cheers from fans and alumni/ae in the stands? How would the students react? I would hope they would support him/her and loudly cheer on their Crusaders.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 15, 2018 9:02:39 GMT -5
I wonder if I need to change that statement at the bottom of my posts. Perhaps to: "We may not win, but we ALWAYS FIGHT (unless it might upset someone)! I am now, with this PC stampede, at a point where I am laughing to keep from crying.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Mar 15, 2018 9:36:36 GMT -5
There are both "official" and unofficial mascots (like Igor of bygone days). How would the college react if someone wearing a Knight symbol (perhaps a large red cross, or helmet-like hat, etc.) went onto the court and started leading cheers from fans and alumni/ae in the stands? How would the students react? I would hope they would support him/her and loudly cheer on their Crusaders. I was actually thinking that when I read the email yesterday, Rob. Will they escorts students who dress like a knight or hold foam swords out of the gym unless they surrender their props? Will they take down signs that have stickers or imagines of knights on them?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 15, 2018 11:42:26 GMT -5
There are both "official" and unofficial mascots (like Igor of bygone days). How would the college react if someone wearing a Knight symbol (perhaps a large red cross, or helmet-like hat, etc.) went onto the court and started leading cheers from fans and alumni/ae in the stands? How would the students react? I would hope they would support him/her and loudly cheer on their Crusaders. I was actually thinking that when I read the email yesterday, Rob. Will they escorts students who dress like a knight or hold foam swords out of the gym unless they surrender their props? Will they take down signs that have stickers or imagines of knights on them? Easy answer to those two questions: YES
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Post by hc811215 on Mar 15, 2018 11:51:47 GMT -5
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 15, 2018 12:22:54 GMT -5
wchcsports,
pakachoag phreek is my tip of the hat to Robert Goddard, who was a professor at Clark. My first 'real' job was at Goddard [Space Flight Center], where I worked for about six months.
As for 'rockets', it depends on what kind of 'rockets' and who made them. The truly nicest rocket engineer I knew was the man who was the chief engineer for my avatar. He was also classified as an ardent Nazi and a war criminal, but so valuable to the United States that he was allowed to retire to Germany rather than being tried.
According to Fr. K, Fr. Brooks changed the lyrics of a HC fight song at the request of a black student. Was that being politically correct at the time?
The original Holy Cross version of the song... given the location for the 'songfest', must be a crusader living down South.
I intend writing to Fr. B. with a suggestion for a new mascot. New mascot attributes:
Horse mounted: check Helmet: check (though optional) Breastplate: check Shield: check Royal purple: check Chi rho: check (though optional) Elite status: check Associated with In Hoc Signo Vinces: check
The only change is based on contemporary depictions of this mascot which would substitute a torch for a sword. A torch is a symbol of light, and of knowledge. Yale's motto is Lux et veritas.
And when one looks at the history of the crusades, these were, in sum, failures, --a losing record. Not so for my suggestion for a new mascot.
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Post by gopurple97 on Mar 17, 2018 6:58:21 GMT -5
wchcsports, pakachoag phreek is my tip of the hat to Robert Goddard, who was a professor at Clark. My first 'real' job was at Goddard [Space Flight Center], where I worked for about six months. As for 'rockets', it depends on what kind of 'rockets' and who made them. The truly nicest rocket engineer I knew was the man who was the chief engineer for my avatar. He was also classified as an ardent Nazi and a war criminal, but so valuable to the United States that he was allowed to retire to Germany rather than being tried. According to Fr. K, Fr. Brooks changed the lyrics of a HC fight song at the request of a black student. Was that being politically correct at the time? The original Holy Cross version of the song... given the location for the 'songfest', must be a crusader living down South. I intend writing to Fr. B. with a suggestion for a new mascot. New mascot attributes: Horse mounted: check Helmet: check (though optional) Breastplate: check Shield: check Royal purple: check Chi rho: check (though optional) Elite status: check Associated with In Hoc Signo Vinces: check The only change is based on contemporary depictions of this mascot which would substitute a torch for a sword. A torch is a symbol of light, and of knowledge. Yale's motto is Lux et veritas. And when one looks at the history of the crusades, these were, in sum, failures, --a losing record. Not so for my suggestion for a new mascot. Phreek - how about a cartoon version of David Stockman as our mascot instead? Saw that you were looking for me during the tax discussion - and I have to say, couldn't be happier to never pay the AMT again after this year (unless I'm making 1 mm - not likely at this rate). Been taking a break from the board. Just busy, busy, busy with work, kids etc. First time in years, wasn't even able to get to a single basketball game either. Too many conflicts. Not sure what to add on the mascot discussion besides sharing the disappointment that we bowed to political correctness. I am not surprised though - Fr. B. is at heart a Georgetown guy - I'm sure there will be more disappointments in the years to come. It was obvious when he announced the keeping of "Crusader" during that fireside chat, that he was looking for something to sacrifice to try and appease the mob of 1% (vocal) HC alumni that made killing the Crusader the focus of their lives. And will anyone be surprised if in 5-7 years this discussion is revisited and this time Crusader is eliminated? It was clear it came down to the $$$. I think Father B. wanted the "Crusader" dead, but knew there was too much $$$$$ at risk. Like a modern day indulgence, we get to keep our Crusader for a few years so long as our dollars continue to flow. Not my $$$ of course - I don't give enough to be relevant. Anyway, hope all is well.
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Post by Tom on Mar 17, 2018 8:15:05 GMT -5
Anyway, hope all is well. Fear not - every gift counts. Obviously the bottom line is king, but HC is very proud of their percentage of alumni that give. Last I looked they were just over 50 percent which is extremely rare. The percentage factors into all those school ratings that HC brags about. Also reaching certain percentage thresholds opens the door for various grants so even a small gift helps the bottom line by keeping the percentage up
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