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Fordham
Mar 31, 2019 13:36:30 GMT -5
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Post by HC92 on Mar 31, 2019 13:36:30 GMT -5
Fordham has now played 24 men’s basketball seasons since joining the A10. They have had an overall winning record in two of those seasons. Is it time for them to give up the dream and go back to the PL or the MAAC? I bear them no ill will as I grew up rooting for the Rams at Rose Hill. I really just don’t know if it can work for them in the A10. Their last NCAA appearance was 1992. I know we have a few Fordham lurkers here. Most interested in what they think is the right answer.
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Fordham
Mar 31, 2019 13:39:42 GMT -5
Post by hchoops on Mar 31, 2019 13:39:42 GMT -5
Yes, it is well past the time to change leagues. Will they do it ? Very doubtful
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Fordham
Mar 31, 2019 14:16:53 GMT -5
Post by nycrusader2010 on Mar 31, 2019 14:16:53 GMT -5
I'll weigh in as a Bronx resident, son of Fordham faculty member and someone who has attended at least a home game or two at Rose Hill every year since about 2001.
1) Having been in the gym for games against very good A-10 schools like Dayton, Richmond, Xavier back in the day, St. Joe's, Butler (in league for hot second), in addition to Manhattan and St. John's, there IS buzz around these games. Even when Fordham is mediocre or just plain bad, enough locals and alum understand that the A-10 brings some darn good basketball to Rose Hill and they do come out for the product. While their attendance figures certainly don't look great now, remember the gym only holds 2,500 and that they would probably draw less than half of what they do currently if they moved to a smaller conference. I CAN SEE WHY FORDHAM FANS AND ALUM WOULD OBJECT TO THE IDEA OF DROPPING DOWN TO THE MAAC OR PL, even if the move would ultimately benefit the program in all areas. Imagine the outrage on this board if a Fordham fan came on this board in 2004 suggesting Holy Cross football go to the NEC, now-defunct MAAC or Pioneer League.
2) There's no way Fordham goes baack to the MAAC in my opinion. They would not want to be in the same league fighting for back page three-sentence blurbs week in and week out with Manhattan, Iona, St. Peter's and Marist. The Patriot League for all sports is the best fit for them because they could leverage the academic angle against these local rivals.
3) Going back to the Patriot League would allow Fordham to hit the reset button in terms of men's basketball recruiting and could also give program culture a reboot. Think Providence for a minute. They were perennially buried in the old Big East, winning 35-40% of their conference games every year. They were always an NIT-bubble type program unable to contend with the likes of UConn, Syracuse, Louisville and Pitt. Fast forward to the "new" Big East and suddenly they are in a place where they are still in a well-respected conference but are now fighting for the spot behind 'Nova in the standings with similar schools like Georgetown, Seton Hall and Marquette. WINNING BREEDS WINNING CULTURE -- now that PC is making the NCAA almost annually in addition to competing for what is still a prestigious conference championship, the overall program bar has been raised. Fordham could do this in the Patriot League.
4) The days of NY area players committing to local schools is long gone. St. John's has put up a donut in this regard with the exception of Ponds in recent years, and that's with a local icon as its head coach!! Fordham hit the jack pot in signing Eric Paschall, a Dobbs Ferry product who finished his HS career in a CT prep school. He might have been able to start a trend and put the Rams back on local recruiting map but bolted for Villanova after his freshman year. Patriot League membership might be able to allow Fordham to identify it's basketball program as a top national academic destination (not that it isn't now) where one has the chance to go to school and play ball in New York City while competing for championships.
5) Fordham should hire Rick Pitino if they want to give competing in the A-10 "one last shot".
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Fordham
Mar 31, 2019 14:18:45 GMT -5
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Post by timholycross on Mar 31, 2019 14:18:45 GMT -5
I bet at this point the rest of the A10 would like them gone. Can't be helping them in terms of strength of schedule,etc. And I doubt a terrible Fordham team gets much play media-wise in NYC although NYC crusader is no doubt correct that the MAAC would get them considerably less
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Mar 31, 2019 14:34:55 GMT -5
I bet at this point the rest of the A10 would like them gone. Can't be helping them in terms of strength of schedule,etc. And I doubt a terrible Fordham team gets much play media-wise in NYC although NYC crusader is no doubt correct that the MAAC would get them considerably less Zilch. For one, New York City is an awful pro and college basketball town. Secondly, it's an even worse college sports town. Other than getting mentioned in the local run-down of Division I scores on talk radio, there's no juice surrounding local college teams, no water cooler talk. Holy Cross gets far more exposure through Jen Tolland and WTAG than A-10 Fordham gets in the Bronx. I don't think they are a threat to get kicked out of the A-10 because despite the local apathy the fellow institutions probably value having an NYC team in the league. I actually think Fordham would get more exposure than they do now if they were in the MAAC and WON IT. Iona and Manhattan do get decent media attention WHEN AND ONLY WHEN they are headed to the NCAA tournament and obviously if they manage to win a game there. Player and coach interviews, calls into talk radio about the teams and their chances, some analysis by Mike Francesa, etc. However, I think institutionally Fordham would hate being on an even playing field with the other local MAAC teams. At least now, they have reason to feel they're "above" these other local schools because of A-10 affiliation. At least in the PL, they'd be able to peddle the superior academic affiliation, connection to the Ivies, all-around student athlete experience, etc. while competing somewhere they can win.
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Fordham
Mar 31, 2019 14:36:58 GMT -5
Post by hchoops on Mar 31, 2019 14:36:58 GMT -5
I'll weigh in as a Bronx resident, son of Fordham faculty member and someone who has attended at least a home game or two at Rose Hill every year since about 2001. 1) Having been in the gym for games against very good A-10 schools like Dayton, Richmond, Xavier back in the day, St. Joe's, Butler (in league for hot second), in addition to Manhattan and St. John's, there IS buzz around these games. Even when Fordham is mediocre or just plain bad, enough locals and alum understand that the A-10 brings some darn good basketball to Rose Hill and they do come out for the product. While their attendance figures certainly don't look great now, remember the gym only holds 2,500 and that they would probably draw less than half of what they do currently if they moved to a smaller conference. I CAN SEE WHY FORDHAM FANS AND ALUM WOULD OBJECT TO THE IDEA OF DROPPING DOWN TO THE MAAC OR PL, even if the move would ultimately benefit the program in all areas. Imagine the outrage on this board if a Fordham fan came on this board in 2004 suggesting Holy Cross football go to the NEC, now-defunct MAAC or Pioneer League. 2) There's no way Fordham goes baack to the MAAC in my opinion. They would not want to be in the same league fighting for back page three-sentence blurbs week in and week out with Manhattan, Iona, St. Peter's and Marist. The Patriot League for all sports is the best fit for them because they could leverage the academic angle against these local rivals. 3) Going back to the Patriot League would allow Fordham to hit the reset button in terms of men's basketball recruiting and could also give program culture a reboot. Think Providence for a minute. They were perennially buried in the old Big East, winning 35-40% of their conference games every year. They were always an NIT-bubble type program unable to contend with the likes of UConn, Syracuse, Louisville and Pitt. Fast forward to the "new" Big East and suddenly they are in a place where they are still in a well-respected conference but are now fighting for the spot behind 'Nova in the standings with similar schools like Georgetown, Seton Hall and Marquette. WINNING BREEDS WINNING CULTURE -- now that PC is making the NCAA almost annually in addition to competing for what is still a prestigious conference championship, the overall program bar has been raised. Fordham could do this in the Patriot League. 4) The days of NY area players committing to local schools is long gone. St. John's has put up a donut in this regard with the exception of Ponds in recent years, and that's with a local icon as its head coach!! Fordham hit the jack pot in signing Eric Paschall, a Dobbs Ferry product who finished his HS career in a CT prep school. He might have been able to start a trend and put the Rams back on local recruiting map but bolted for Villanova after his freshman year. Patriot League membership might be able to allow Fordham to identify it's basketball program as a top national academic destination (not that it isn't now) where one has the chance to go to school and play ball in New York City while competing for championships. 5) Fordham should hire Rick Pitino if they want to give competing in the A-10 "one last shot". 5–hopefully you forgot the smiley face 4- Paschal was recruited by Pecora, who improved recruiting considerably, and wins to a slight degree. Imo he was fired too soon. When he was sent packing, Paschal went with Pecora’s close friend, Jay Wright.
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Fordham
Mar 31, 2019 14:43:36 GMT -5
Post by nycrusader2010 on Mar 31, 2019 14:43:36 GMT -5
hchoops - didn't realize he transferred because of the firing. Pecora certainly did a good job at Hofstra but you only have to look at the numbers to realize it wasn't turning around at Fordham. In five years, he went 13-69 (.159) in the Atlantic 10, with 4-14 his BEST finish. Even at a school outside the realm of the entertainment business, that should get you fired.
Since I've followed Fordham basketball, the only brief stretch where a turnaround looked to possibly be in the works was in the 2004-2006 range under Whittenberg. They had a couple years where they flirted with .500 in the league. Had a couple guards from Toronto and a big guy named Bryant Dunston who was a product of St. John's Prep in Astoria.
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Fordham
Mar 31, 2019 15:00:03 GMT -5
Post by hchoops on Mar 31, 2019 15:00:03 GMT -5
Pecora’s recruiting was a big improvement. One top recruit from Christ the King did not work out, but along with Paschall, he recruited a player who just played well at Fordham and as a 5th year senior this season at Marquette.
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Fordham
Mar 31, 2019 15:07:51 GMT -5
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Mar 31, 2019 15:07:51 GMT -5
Pecora’s recruiting was a big improvement. One top recruit from Christ the King did not work out, but along with Paschall, he recruited a player who just played well at Fordham and as a 5th year senior this season at Marquette. Too little too late I guess after 4 straight seasons finishing 14th out of 14.
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Fordham
Mar 31, 2019 15:16:16 GMT -5
Post by hchoops on Mar 31, 2019 15:16:16 GMT -5
Considering the failures before him, the administration should have been more patient esp since they had a star for 3 more years in Paschal
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Fordham
Mar 31, 2019 15:31:12 GMT -5
Post by gks on Mar 31, 2019 15:31:12 GMT -5
Substitute "Holy Cross" for "Fordham" in this argument. Would you suggest HC drop down conferences?
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Fordham
Mar 31, 2019 16:13:53 GMT -5
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Post by nhteamer on Mar 31, 2019 16:13:53 GMT -5
Substitute "Holy Cross" for "Fordham" in this argument. Would you suggest HC drop down conferences? Too late We already did
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Post by Tom on Mar 31, 2019 16:19:25 GMT -5
Substitute "Holy Cross" for "Fordham" in this argument. Would you suggest HC drop down conferences? I have cited Fordham many times as an example of why jumping to the A-10 might not automatically make HC better and think it was probably a mistake, although I am not telling them where to go. I'm as discouraged by the past decade as anybody and want HC to do better in the PL. Even with discouraging results, since Fordham's 1992 dance, HC has gone to six tournaments plus an NIT(prior to auto bids doe #1's who don't seal the deal) and I believe four trips to the PL finals that didn't send HC to the NCAA. Comparing HC's woes to Fordham's isn't a great comparison
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Fordham
Mar 31, 2019 17:04:19 GMT -5
Post by Non Alum Dave on Mar 31, 2019 17:04:19 GMT -5
Didn't Pecora also recruit Jon Severe? To tie to another thread, his transfer to Iona (who also brought in Sam Cassell Jr) might have been the impetus for J Proctor to transfer to High Point.
Someone made reference recently about the Fordham board. I've never been able to find it since the last one was shut down. Anyone have a link? I always loved reading it - reminded me of this board. Thanks.
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Fordham
Mar 31, 2019 17:31:38 GMT -5
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Post by HC92 on Mar 31, 2019 17:31:38 GMT -5
Didn't Pecora also recruit Jon Severe? To tie to another thread, his transfer to Iona (who also brought in Sam Cassell Jr) might have been the impetus for J Proctor to transfer to High Point. Someone made reference recently about the Fordham board. I've never been able to find it since the last one was shut down. Anyone have a link? I always loved reading it - reminded me of this board. Thanks. I think this is the new one. I think you need to register to even see it. fuforum.createaforum.com
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Post by bigfan on Mar 31, 2019 17:39:13 GMT -5
Fordham is a great school, the main reason they have problems recruiting is Rose Hill Gym. They need to build a new facility and they will start recruiting better athletes.
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Fordham
Mar 31, 2019 18:45:57 GMT -5
Post by hchoops on Mar 31, 2019 18:45:57 GMT -5
Didn't Pecora also recruit Jon Severe? To tie to another thread, his transfer to Iona (who also brought in Sam Cassell Jr) might have been the impetus for J Proctor to transfer to High Point. Yes, Pecora beat out many power 6 schools for Severe but emotional factors hindered his progress. Pecora was the first Fordham coach in a very long time (and since) to establish connections with the NYC CHSAA and other Metro area coaches
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Fordham
Mar 31, 2019 18:52:31 GMT -5
Post by Non Alum Dave on Mar 31, 2019 18:52:31 GMT -5
Didn't Pecora also recruit Jon Severe? To tie to another thread, his transfer to Iona (who also brought in Sam Cassell Jr) might have been the impetus for J Proctor to transfer to High Point. Someone made reference recently about the Fordham board. I've never been able to find it since the last one was shut down. Anyone have a link? I always loved reading it - reminded me of this board. Thanks. I think this is the new one. I think you need to register to even see it. fuforum.createaforum.com
thanks '92
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Fordham
Mar 31, 2019 19:04:22 GMT -5
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Mar 31, 2019 19:04:22 GMT -5
Why wouldn’t Fordham hire Cluess?
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Fordham
Mar 31, 2019 19:11:08 GMT -5
Post by hchoops on Mar 31, 2019 19:11:08 GMT -5
Many reasons. Iona has taken questionable character transfers which Fordham will not do. With their hire of Neubauer(sp) they wanted someone relatively young. Cluess and Grasso do not have the best reputations in NYC hoops.
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Fordham
Mar 31, 2019 19:25:21 GMT -5
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Post by longsuffering on Mar 31, 2019 19:25:21 GMT -5
The Seven Blocks of Granite are hard to move. I don't think the capitulation phase is close because you can drop down in competition level and still have poor performance (see Cross, Holy). Keep looking for the same bright young recruiter/game planner/motivator/skills teacher as a transformative Head Coach we will be looking for sometime within the next few years.
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Fordham
Mar 31, 2019 19:41:38 GMT -5
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Mar 31, 2019 19:41:38 GMT -5
Many reasons. Iona has taken questionable character transfers which Fordham will not do. With their hire of Neubauer(sp) they wanted someone relatively young. Cluess and Grasso do not have the best reputations in NYC hoops. I find this hard to believe. Jeff Neubauer isn’t exactly a man of character (https://nypost.com/2016/05/17/college-coachs-wife-has-been-airing-his-affair-for-months/). I’m not aware of any of Cluess’ players at Iona being arrested or kicked off the team. If he doesn’t have the best reputation, so be it. But he’s clearly doing something right at Iona.
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Fordham
Mar 31, 2019 19:57:15 GMT -5
Post by hchoops on Mar 31, 2019 19:57:15 GMT -5
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Fordham
Mar 31, 2019 20:01:58 GMT -5
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Mar 31, 2019 20:01:58 GMT -5
Going back to February of 2004, hoops. Cluess was coaching at St. Mary’s High School in Manhasset in 2004. You’re really digging here!
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Fordham
Mar 31, 2019 20:09:56 GMT -5
Post by hchoops on Mar 31, 2019 20:09:56 GMT -5
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