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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Sept 2, 2019 18:27:40 GMT -5
So, have you already written off this season?
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 2, 2019 18:53:22 GMT -5
Option two is the only realistic current route until we dominate league play and do some damage in the NCAA tournament. With a century or more of FB tradition at PL schools, dropping FB strikes me as unlikely. These schools live and die by alumni donations so I don't think they will do anything to kill the golden goose. League members have resources and I assume they don't like being laughing stocks so I think they will make some rule and funding adjustments to help FB be competitive if the OOC record doesn't suddenly improve.
The only thing I can think of to cause a PL school to drop FB would be if former players start winning CTE lawsuits against their alma mater. It would be easier for Fordham to change leagues since they are not tied to the PL for all other sports. They might be a fit in either the CAA or the NEC. Georgetown could consider the NEC also. The other danger the PL Presidents face if they allow FB to become a laughingstock vs OOC competition is the possibility of losing either or both Fordham and Georgetown. The Hoyas possibly have other league options more geographically convenient also.
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Post by hc87 on Sept 2, 2019 18:54:58 GMT -5
So, have you already written off this season? Directed toward me? If it was, short answer is no. I actually thought we looked decent at times...it wasn't like going into the lion's den of Alumni last year. . More of a long term issue league-wise, league-wide. The PL, given its resources, history etc shouldn't be as bad as it is in football currently. What must be done? Essentially
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 2, 2019 19:12:21 GMT -5
So, have you already written off this season? Directed toward me? If it was, short answer is no. I actually thought we looked decent at times...it wasn't like going into the lion's den of Alumni last year. . More of a long term issue league-wise, league-wide. The PL, given its resources, history etc shouldn't be as bad as it is in football currently. What must be done? Essentially Essentially... Continue please. Solutions always welcome.
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Post by hc87 on Sept 2, 2019 19:21:25 GMT -5
I threw out the easy answers of allowing red-shirting, 63 scholarships instead of 60, no roster size limits etc
Interested to hear others....
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Sept 2, 2019 19:28:10 GMT -5
60 vs 63 is just about the most absurd rule I've ever heard. It's like "Ok, you can have scholarships, but you're getting 60. Not 63, or 62, or 61, but 60. So there!" What is the flipping point??
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 2, 2019 20:11:56 GMT -5
Those three withheld scholarships are a fig leaf so the league won't be nakedly "big time" I guess.
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 2, 2019 20:22:19 GMT -5
I threw out the easy answers of allowing red-shirting, 63 scholarships instead of 60, no roster size limits etc Interested to hear others.... Instructing admissions to view the applicant as a whole person. If one applicant is the state champion violinist, that skill will enhance the community and allows admissions to be more flexible in other areas, if another applicant has the highest QB rating in his state, that skill will enhance the community and allows admissions to be more flexible in other areas. That's the Ivy League model as I understand it and their academic reputations have not fallen because of it. You can't have knuckle draggers admitted, but in general you can consider all the attributes an applicant will add to the school community.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Sept 2, 2019 20:28:33 GMT -5
What makes this even more troubling is the signifcant budgets that six PL schools have set in football versus the return they see. Here are the 2017-18 numbers ranked by budget size within I-AA/FCS:
4. Fordham $7,386,341 8. Lafayette $6,689,080 11. Colgate $6,210,219 12. Holy Cross $6,132,785 13. Bucknell $5,783,515 14. Lehigh $5,766,426 109. Georgetown $2,038,386
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Post by hc87 on Sept 2, 2019 20:45:28 GMT -5
I think those figures are skewed by tuition/scholarship $$$'s but point taken nonetheless.
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Post by HC92 on Sept 2, 2019 20:49:21 GMT -5
60 vs 63 is completely stupid but not one of the primary reasons for PL football struggles.
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Post by hc87 on Sept 2, 2019 20:55:32 GMT -5
I think red-shirting (or not allowing save for medical reasons....some PL schools not even that) is the biggest hurdle we face when playing FBS, CAA or even Ivy teams.
We simply don't match-up with the physicality, speed, experience, depth etc that red-shirting allows in D1 college football today.
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Post by gks on Sept 2, 2019 21:20:19 GMT -5
60 vs 63 is completely stupid but not one of the primary reasons for PL football struggles. And remember for the first few years of PL scholarships HC was only at 57 or 58. Would not go to 60. Talk about handcuffing...HC made them even tighter. The 90 player limit is the stupidest rule. PL teams have no depth.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 2, 2019 22:08:50 GMT -5
I think those figures are skewed by tuition/scholarship $$$'s but point taken nonetheless. Correct.
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Post by southernsader on Sept 2, 2019 22:17:19 GMT -5
I may have posted this before but the day that HC announced Vaas’ hiring I told one of our current posters that we would know how he would fare based on his comments at the introductory press conference. I said that if he indicated that, despite a lack of familiarity with the run and shoot, it would be easier to teach 10-12 coaches a new system than 90-100 players a new system, he’d have some shot at success but if he said he was going to come in and run the Power-I or some other “munch and crunch” offense, he would struggle-perhaps mightily. All of you know what he said and, predictably, what happened—dissension in the ranks regarding the change in systems, 6-5 record on the heels of 11-0 and 60-5-1, three dismal seasons in ‘93-‘95 and his departure after the ‘95 season. Basically his “mistaken” hire was a precursor to the FHCSK system change and dismal results on the hoops side. Lesson: If you are following a very successful head coach, you change systems at your peril. You must win immediately with the new system (e.g. Huggins following Beilein at WV) or you will have difficulty getting the “buy-in” that you need, particularly with 3-4 classes of players who were recruited for and/or are familiar with the “old” system. I heard that Vaas felt that he had been treated unfairly by HC with respect to his tenure and termination. I would suggest otherwise. Vaas - and Rainor - were both unfairly labeled as failures. Neither had a chance with the transition to no scholarships. .
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 2, 2019 22:24:39 GMT -5
The ability to redshirt is huge.
Make it a requirement that a student-athlete must pick up a double major or add a minor. This practice shouldn't be taboo.
Was going to use Navy as an example of a school that is able to succeed without the ability to redshirt (even medical) but they have the unique advantage of being able to use their prep school as a pipeline to their varsity program. This practice would be considered an egregious NCAA violation anywhere outside of the academies. Imagine "Ohio State Prep".
The other major factor has to be the roster limits. Theres no other logical reason why we have FALLEN as a league relative to other FCS conferences despite adding 60 scholarships to six of our seven programs.
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Post by hcpride on Sept 3, 2019 5:26:06 GMT -5
I think red-shirting (or not allowing save for medical reasons....some PL schools not even that) is the biggest hurdle we face when playing FBS, CAA or even Ivy teams. We simply don't match-up with the physicality, speed, experience, depth etc that red-shirting allows in D1 college football today. It (lack of non-medical redshirts) also kills PL schools when facing NEC teams. (We’re 0-2 in PL v NEC matchups thus far this season.)
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Post by trimster on Sept 3, 2019 6:09:50 GMT -5
What makes this even more troubling is the signifcant budgets that six PL schools have set in football versus the return they see. Here are the 2017-18 numbers ranked by budget size within I-AA/FCS: 4. Fordham $7,386,341 8. Lafayette $6,689,080 11. Colgate $6,210,219 12. Holy Cross $6,132,785 13. Bucknell $5,783,515 14. Lehigh $5,766,426 109. Georgetown $2,038,386 Does anyone know what % of the money invested in football HC must match on the women’s side of athletics to be in compliance with Title IX. I know it is slightly off topic but I was wondering about this yesterday.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Sept 3, 2019 6:43:28 GMT -5
I think red-shirting (or not allowing save for medical reasons....some PL schools not even that) is the biggest hurdle we face when playing FBS, CAA or even Ivy teams. We simply don't match-up with the physicality, speed, experience, depth etc that red-shirting allows in D1 college football today. It (lack of non-medical redshirts) also kills PL schools when facing NEC teams. (We’re 0-2 in PL v NEC matchups thus far this season.) Embarrassing. Great for the NEC that they've improved their football brand significantly but it wasn't that long ago when the PL was head and shoulders ahead of them at a time when they had limited scholarships and we had none.
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Post by joe on Sept 3, 2019 7:07:40 GMT -5
All this mincing around . . . Jeesh . . all we have to do is look at the CAA and the NEC and imitate. Max schollies, non-medical redshirting, no AI, higher pay. Done. Night football too.
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Post by crusader12 on Sept 3, 2019 7:10:01 GMT -5
I hate to say it because it's been beaten to death but either get the BoT/Fr. B on board or drop to DIII let's stop this charade... The Patriot League is a joke, no one cares, and alumni are losing interest.
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Post by joe on Sept 3, 2019 7:24:47 GMT -5
I really can’t imagine HC will downgrade football after building the Luth. The problem is that when the PL went “schollie” it really needed to go “all-in.” I don’t think the admin nor the fans and alumni fully realized the ancillary aspects of scholarship football required to make the league, as a whole, competitive, and to line up safely against BCS opponents. You can’t “sort of” be a scholarship league unless you are Ivy. Ivy is the only league that can pull this off. HC has now tried it all - full schollie, independent, no AI, grant in aid, need based aid, and now pseudo-schollie. Breaking it down it’s very simple. We did the best athletically and academically when we were an unrestricted full schollie. We now have the benefit of time to look back and see what works and what fails. We also have at least 3 similar leagues to look to for additional case examples. If we can’t figure this out we have zero analytic skill and strategic planning ability. This is not a very difficult problem to figure out and solve. It involves a few key decisions and cash. Don’t blow this with Chesney by setting him up with unrealistic expectations. Support him fully so he can do his job. He’s the right man for the job but I worry the job is not right for the man.
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Post by purplehaze on Sept 3, 2019 8:49:13 GMT -5
Within the league HC is also at a disadvantage as some schools have graduate programs - see excerpt from this week's league release:
Lehigh 'graduate student' defensive back Sam McCloskey claimed the Patriot League Special Teams Player of the Week
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Post by longsuffering on Sept 3, 2019 9:01:39 GMT -5
The ability to redshirt is huge. Make it a requirement that a student-athlete must pick up a double major or add a minor. This practice shouldn't be taboo. Was going to use Navy as an example of a school that is able to succeed without the ability to redshirt (even medical) but they have the unique advantage of being able to use their prep school as a pipeline to their varsity program. This practice would be considered an egregious NCAA violation anywhere outside of the academies. Imagine "Ohio State Prep". The other major factor has to be the roster limits. Theres no other logical reason why we have FALLEN as a league relative to other FCS conferences despite adding 60 scholarships to six of our seven programs. I can imagine "BC High School" but your point is still valid as BC does not stash football players there for a post grad year that I know of. Redshirting in the PL could put HC at a small disadvantage because we don't have graduate courses, but HC does have the ability to individually design a course of study for each student I believe.
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Post by joe on Sept 3, 2019 9:03:53 GMT -5
Honestly, I don't remember a time when HC had unrestricted "Red Shirting" or went "all in" even during my time in the ;60's when HC was simply Div. I, not IAA or FCS. All-in is a relative term as it relates to where we are now, not 60 years ago, which is the world of FCS football. All-in like Villanova is all-in, not all-in like Alabama or even BC.In my experience HC had high academic standards for its students, athletes included - all students in general fell within the broad parameters of the admissions profile, and there no gut classes for "dumb jocks" ( as currently exist at some FCS and FBS schools), no separate dorms.etc. The athletes were students and part of the general student population. My point exactly, and there was no AI to ensure this happened. The school's reputation spoke for itself in attracting the right student-athletes. We did not rely on league rules to land good athletes with brains too. In fact in the early 1950's, a time of higher level of play, HC announced a policy similar to the Ivies, that athletes were to be fully representative of the academic standards of the school. If there were a few athletes on the lower end of the spectrum there were also non- athletes at the lower end of the spectrum, too. And, all took the same rigorous classes. Ibid. And that's how it always was and still is. Furthermore, you cannot replicate the Ivy League and as far as I know, as long as we're Jesuit, we can't join it (which would be another solution). I was told that in the late '40's, Bill Osmanski, HC's great Hall of Fame halfback, as the coach of the football team, recruited an outstanding group of extremely talented football players. All were rejected out of hand by admissions. Consequently we lost by 70+ points to BC but with our academic integrity and proud tradition intact. I don't think anything from prior to . . . let's say . . . 1984, is relevant. We also played NYU back then. Finally, on a purely personal note, I don't find emulating NEC schools such as St. Francis, LIU, etc. particularly attractive. Nor, does competition against schools such as Elon and the large state schools of the CAA provide a good fit for HC, a small high quality liberal arts college. A bit snotty. There is something to learn from everyone. From an athletic standpoint there is much to learn. Many of these schools were D3 a few years ago and now beating us. These leagues have a variety of public and private schools of various sizes. We'd be the small, liberal arts school in the mix. School size never scared HC in the past and given our willingness to take almost 100M from a donor to build athletic facilities and to insist on staying D1, it would not appear, at least superficially, that we are scared now.
Competition against the other high quality schools of the PL - Colgate, Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell and our Jesuits brother institutions, Fordham and Georgetown - provides a more attractive schedule and a better fit for HC. I agree. That's an argument for the league to remain intact but with revised rules related to football rostering and funding.
I am merely trying to be realistic about HC football and its place in the wider world of college football and in the culture of the school. Is being in a league that is competitive within FCS unrealistic? I think we agree that is is, but based on 30 years of data, the current model makes that statistically unlikely. We need to either drop down or step up. Where we are right now, and have been for 30 years, barring outliers, is kind of a limbo state.
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