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Post by Sons of Vaval on Nov 23, 2021 8:53:59 GMT -5
His “full cupboard” are frosh or sophomores who played a half season last year or soph who barely played last year. After 10 years of terrible basketball did you all want Nelson to bring in McDonalds All Americans? Why would they commit to Holy Cross when we fire our coaches after 4/5 years? Do I think Nelson is the guy? Likely no. But fire him after this year and we are GUARANTEED to be having this same conversation 3 years from now. Just like we did with Brown. Just like we did with Carmody. As infuriating as it is watching games these days, he needs to be given this year and 2 more and if he isn’t challenging for PLT when this years sophs are seniors, he’s gone. Pride, the losses would be more palatable if it looked like we had a plan in place on the defensive end. This is where we should be looking to neutralize our opponent. Nelson has proven himself to be a deer in headlights when it comes to defense. Should this really come as a surprise when his former boss (Wojo) failed on the defensive end? Pomeroy defensive efficiency ranking: 19-20: 348 20-21: 314 21-22: 344 Our opponents get to the basket way too easily and routinely shoot 50+% from inside the arc. I've always thought defense was more about attention to detail, effort, athleticism, and positioning than talent. Caro said we are now really athletic. Why does the defense still stink?
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Post by Tom on Nov 23, 2021 9:06:39 GMT -5
Perhaps you misspoke. The cupboard "was" bare but that should no longer be the case. If with his own recruits it "is" bare, then that is on him. I did mis-speak (long day). You nailed exactly what I meant to say. Part of your job as head coach is to a) recruit and b) create an environment where your current student athletes aren't constantly wanting to jump ship. Im willing to hold off on judging Nelson until we see what his guys can do this year when healthy. And how much do we improve? I still think all this bare cupboard talk is a little harsh. Ten scholarship players from Nelson's first squad chose to play college basketball somewhere else. Seven of those guys were so horrible another D-I school thought they were worth picking up. I suppose we could say it's an indictment that three transfers (plus the two walk ons that transferred) didn't land in D-I and as such weren't D-I players. That sounds like the team wasn't as deep as it should have been, but not exactly a bare cupboard
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Post by Tom on Nov 23, 2021 9:10:01 GMT -5
His “full cupboard” are frosh or sophomores who played a half season last year or soph who barely played last year. After 10 years of terrible basketball did you all want Nelson to bring in McDonalds All Americans? Why would they commit to Holy Cross when we fire our coaches after 4/5 years? Do I think Nelson is the guy? Likely no. But fire him after this year and we are GUARANTEED to be having this same conversation 3 years from now. Just like we did with Brown. Just like we did with Carmody. As infuriating as it is watching games these days, he needs to be given this year and 2 more and if he isn’t challenging for PLT when this years sophs are seniors, he’s gone. So no interim benchmarks for you---we'll check him at the end of 23-24 regardless of how we play between now and then? Life is a journey. You don't magically appear at your destination without the journey. The team will not be challenging for the 23-24 title if they stink in 22-23. If we are on the right path, we will see progress this year and even more next year
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Nov 23, 2021 9:41:58 GMT -5
We need to see progress THIS year. Not expecting a winning season by any means but we need to see growth. Especially on the defensive end as SoV pointed out. As we've learned by watching Willard and Chesney's teams, DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS.
Let's see how we look throughout the course of Patriot League play with a healthy squad. The beauty of conference play is that you see everyone twice -- and therefore have an excellent metric via which to gauge improvement.
Like I said before, this team is currently at the point where you take ANY Division I win as a reason to celebrate. The bar can't get lower right now. Never in the history of Holy Cross basketball has it been lower. Hence why drastic improvement needs to be seen during the 2nd half of this season, or Nelson is in trouble.
**edit -- thanks to rgs for helping me fix grammatical errors
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Post by possum on Nov 23, 2021 10:07:20 GMT -5
Silly me I thought 3-29 was the low point, it's not possible that two years later we're worse than that is it. But I also never thought I'd see the day we'd be trailing Bryant by 30 points in a game, I guess these days anything is possible.
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Post by Tom on Nov 23, 2021 10:14:25 GMT -5
Silly me I thought 3-29 was the low point, it's not possible that two years later we're worse than that is it. But I also never thought I'd see the day we'd be trailing Bryant by 30 points in a game, I guess these days anything is possible. Many of us and also things like the ranking services only count the D-I record which has us at 0-4 instead of 1-4. To be consistent, shouldn't we call that season 3-28
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Nov 23, 2021 10:14:57 GMT -5
Silly me I thought 3-29 was the low point, it's not possible that two years later we're worse than that is it. But I also never thought I'd see the day we'd be trailing Bryant by 30 points in a game, I guess these days anything is possible. Or going into a home game against UNH and the measure of success is staying within single digits.
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Post by efg72 on Nov 23, 2021 10:21:28 GMT -5
While the defense is at best bad, the turnovers are preventable right now as we work on all other parts of the game. Eliminate the unforced turnovers or significantly reduce them, and we can make progress. Perhaps if we value the ball, our 20-30 point deficits might become 12-15 points, and we can then compete and LEARN along this journey.
If the development of this team requires many teaching moments, we need to put the team in a position to learn during the game. Getting down by 30 is not a learning experience other than the game, and experiences are no fun for anybody.
Maybe change the way we play from a sprint and turn it into a nice long run-- slow the game down a bit until the team is ready to run track, eliminate the turnovers, and this group might surprise us when we start PL play.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Nov 23, 2021 10:36:14 GMT -5
There's absolutely no reason we shouldn't be a competitive team in the PL this season. Six of the ten teams are ranked in the bottom 75 nationally, per Pomeroy.
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Post by timholycross on Nov 23, 2021 10:51:34 GMT -5
Bottom 75 is a lot like football.
In football there were 5 teams at the outset considered mediocre or downright poor by most folks' measure: LC, LU, Buck, Gt and Colgate.
By the end of the year, 2 of them, LU and Colgate; improved (which is what we at this point would want to see for HC basketball this year); started winning league games and sprung at least one upset (Colgate/Fordham).
The other 3 regressed badly and/or stood still.
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Post by sader1970 on Nov 23, 2021 11:18:14 GMT -5
It would seem to me that Nelson (from his perspective and some of his more ardent supporters, not mine) decided to trade off experienced but talent-deficient players for more talented but lacking experience replacements with the exception of the transfers that he brought in. While I am withholding judgement on just how talented these new players really are, if you buy the premise, then there is an understandable gap before the new guys gain experience and their talent isn't ACC/Big10 level to be proficient out of the gate.
So, of course there will be some rough sailing. That said, where I part ways is giving Nelson more than the rest of this season to prove that his purging of Carmody players was the right move.
While ACC "one and dones" contribute right off the bat before they head off to the NBA and we can't expect that, the Patriot League is not the ACC and we're not getting one and dones. We don't expect them hitting 3rd gear right away but in the Patriot League, they also don't get 3 years to prove their worth either because the opposition isn't ACC level either.
Glad we got the cupboard is bare cleared up.
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Post by dharry13 on Nov 23, 2021 11:32:26 GMT -5
I hate to say this, but where this program is at right now, my immediate thought is toward Luc and him transferring already. It's a horrible way to think I know, but based on where this program is - and losing badly to low end D1 teams, my thought is there is no way they can keep him. And the cycle would just continue. I get it - we are 5 games in. If HC was 3-2 my mind wouldn't go there, but the scores and the nature of how they are losing, my mind immediately goes there. He looks at this team and probably says - I'm a Freshman and I'm the leading scorer and we are losing by 20 a game? How does this get better?
Nelson, IMO, has to win NOW. What's winning to me? In a 31 game season, plus at least 1 PL game - I'd be happy with 14 to 15 wins. Still sub .500, but winning % continues to improve.
They are losing by an average of 20 points per game to Quinnipiac, Air Force, Bryant, BC. Not exactly murderer's row of college hoop.
You can get good very fast in basketball because of the nature of the transfer portal, how 1 guy can mean a number of wins, etc.
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Post by rgs318 on Nov 23, 2021 11:46:50 GMT -5
I don't see Luc transferring from a team where he has secured an important place for himself. We have had a few players who came to HC already planning to transfer. Pridgen said as much on several occasions. However, as a player, I believe he may see more of the talent his current teammates possess and can see better than outsiders where the program is headed. We'll see.
There is an African proverb which says "To speak of an enemy gives it strength." I view expressing fears of transfers in that light. We'll see. BTW, no matter the coach, there are some posters who will never be pleased by any coach. Even an undefeated streak may not be enough because the winning margins may not be "large enough." Basically, it is also because whoever HC hires is not very good because they are coaching at Holy Cross. Then we will hear how anyone HC did not hire is a suburb coach (quoting selective stats, if any are actually mentioned). I have seen several people say they want to wait until the end of the season to evaluate this coach and team. It is appreciated.
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 23, 2021 18:14:33 GMT -5
I hate to say this, but where this program is at right now, my immediate thought is toward Luc and him transferring already. It's a horrible way to think I know, but based on where this program is - and losing badly to low end D1 teams, my thought is there is no way they can keep him. And the cycle would just continue. I get it - we are 5 games in. If HC was 3-2 my mind wouldn't go there, but the scores and the nature of how they are losing, my mind immediately goes there. He looks at this team and probably says - I'm a Freshman and I'm the leading scorer and we are losing by 20 a game? How does this get better? Nelson, IMO, has to win NOW. What's winning to me? In a 31 game season, plus at least 1 PL game - I'd be happy with 14 to 15 wins. Still sub .500, but winning % continues to improve. They are losing by an average of 20 points per game to Quinnipiac, Air Force, Bryant, BC. Not exactly murderer's row of college hoop. You can get good very fast in basketball because of the nature of the transfer portal, how 1 guy can mean a number of wins, etc. Our other two recent freshman leading scorers when the left the team, Lowder and Joe P., didn't improve their basketball resumes after they transferred out. Despite the portal hopping with activity, it's still a risk. Maybe Luc's new coach would insist on defense and distribution.
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Post by rgs318 on Nov 23, 2021 18:31:43 GMT -5
Luc is one of this team's leaders and you are actually pposting about his "new coach?" Are you nuts?
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 23, 2021 20:41:20 GMT -5
Luc is one of this team's leaders and you are actually pposting about his "new coach?" Are you nuts? [br Yes. I'm certified.😊 But my point is in response to the concern of Luc leaving that it might not have been the best move for Drew L. and Joe P., who I believe were both the HC leading scorer when they each left the team, so the grass is not always greener. Plus being the early season scoring leader on an injury depleted losing team is not necessarily that significant.
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Post by rgs318 on Nov 23, 2021 20:47:53 GMT -5
That is indeed true...and I apologize for my hasty and ill-considered comment. I just get fed up with hearing alleged HC fans speaking about people leaving and tying to supply reasons for doing so. Your post was. not in that category, it just happened to come after a few that were. Once again...sorry.
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Post by longsuffering on Nov 23, 2021 20:57:55 GMT -5
That is indeed true...and I apologize for my hasty and ill-considered comment. I just get fed up with hearing alleged HC fans speaking about people leaving and tying to supply reasons for doing so. Your post was. not in that category, it just happened to come after a few that were. Once again...sorry. I can't get you upset because in your line of work you could probably actually "certify" someone.🙂
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Post by rgs318 on Nov 23, 2021 21:51:25 GMT -5
Well, I can "certify" someone as sane (or "not a danger to self or to others") but the reverse is much harder. Actually, most of us who post regularly on Crossports could be "certified" for that alone.
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Post by Tom on Nov 24, 2021 8:42:23 GMT -5
There's absolutely no reason we shouldn't be a competitive team in the PL this season. Six of the ten teams are ranked in the bottom 75 nationally, per Pomeroy. Coach Brown's teams were competitive in the PL, but in my opinion, never realistically were competitive to win the PL. If holding our own with the bottom 20 % of D-I is a milestone towards progress, so be it. But, I wouldn't consider it much of an accomplishment
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Post by DiMarz on Nov 24, 2021 21:11:52 GMT -5
I really think all new head coaches have a lot to learn....It is one thing to be a top assistant, but an entirely different game as the head coach....In general, it takes a while to get to know oneself and figure out exactly how to do everything. In game coaching and game management takes a while, practice planning takes time, and figuring out what to do on both ends of the court is hit or miss. One thinks this will be great, then in reality it doesn't go as expected...
I think a lot of these factors show when a coach is let go, works as an assistant for while and them gets a second chance and success!
I for one, think Coach Nelson will be a a very good leader, just be patient.....He is still a nubie.....
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 1, 2021 21:19:25 GMT -5
Progressing or regressing?
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Post by cmo on Dec 1, 2021 21:25:37 GMT -5
Pay RW now to go find out next coach.
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Post by efg72 on Dec 1, 2021 21:36:47 GMT -5
I really think all new head coaches have a lot to learn....It is one thing to be a top assistant, but an entirely different game as the head coach....In general, it takes a while to get to know oneself and figure out exactly how to do everything. In game coaching and game management takes a while, practice planning takes time, and figuring out what to do on both ends of the court is hit or miss. One thinks this will be great, then in reality it doesn't go as expected... I think a lot of these factors show when a coach is let go, works as an assistant for while and them gets a second chance and success! I for one, think Coach Nelson will be a a very good leader, just be patient.....He is still a nubie..... Hope you are right, but I am still waiting for some signs that individual players and the team are improving last year Butler and Faw served as leaders on the floor-they are gone and with early injuries nobody stepped up except for Townsell
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Post by dharry13 on Dec 2, 2021 7:55:41 GMT -5
To answer Sons of Vaval - regressing.
There is no reason to believe this team can even compete in the weak PL. It's the eyeball test. This team stinks - it's just a fact. Their only two wins are against two Division 3 teams. They are 0-6 against a very weak D1 OOC schedule. CCSU was 1-6 entering this contest. They have wasted scholarships on a number of players. Their bench contributed 8 total points against a 1-6 team.
Coaches don't have a chance - nor should they for that matter - to get their feet wet for 6 years (he's not a nubie anymore). He's in his third season with HC. Patience has been had. To me there is a difference on seeing the glass half full vs. being completely blind and not even seeing the glass.
Based on their losses to CCSU, Bryant, etc., i don't see HC winning any more than 5 games in the awful PL. I don't know how anyone can see it any differently if they are being honest.
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