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Post by bringbackcaro on Dec 23, 2019 7:50:49 GMT -5
We're 1-11 so far with some of the most horrific losses in school history and what I'm reading from different posters is we shouldn't criticize the players or the coach. If that's the case there will be little or no discussion of the games. I see nothing wrong with critiquing a player's performance on the court as long as there are no personal attacks and the coach's strategy/performance is certainly fair game. It's interesting that we're not supposed to criticize the players but it's okay to call out a former player for a lack of hustle to try to build up the value of another player. I guess once they take off the purple jersey anything goes. For the record, I think it’s fair game, but now is just not the right time to be blaming Nelson, who had absolutely nothing to do with assembling the roster and failing to develop the players from the time they arrived until July (or, in reality, September when he could actually get the players on the court). If there was a roster vs coaching blame pie right now, it would be about 95-5 in favor of the former.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Dec 23, 2019 7:53:42 GMT -5
17 points, 17 rebounds, 7 assists and but 1 turnover--many people would consider that a pretty good game. Yesterday: Andy Dalton: 396 yards, 4 TDs Ryan Fitzpatrick: 419 yards, 4 TDs They must be good/great quarterbacks.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 23, 2019 7:57:05 GMT -5
When one starts from a position that the players who were loyal to their school and team are "not Division 1 players" where do you think there is room for discussion? To criticize particular plays or games is certainly fair. No one has ever said that players and coaches here cannot be evaluated - and certainly some of that will be criticism in almost every case. However, players take off the Purple after every game, but they do not throw it aside and take up another team's colors. IMHO, that is a far different situation and yes, it does make them fair game to some degree.
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Post by bigfan on Dec 23, 2019 8:15:17 GMT -5
You can't blame the coach when the players can't put the ball in the basket. Yesterday we missed many lay-up type shots. Until we recruit shooters like we are seeing from the opponents we are in big trouble. It seems like every team comes in with at least three shooters who can hit the three point shot on a consistent basis.
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Post by crusader12 on Dec 23, 2019 8:21:23 GMT -5
I blame Carmody. He left us holding the bag when he announced his late retirement. Granted some sensitive family health reasons played into it but from a 2019-2020 basketball standpoint it was impossible to play catch-up. Just write this year off and move on to next year. 5 wins or fewer unfortunately.
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Post by trimster on Dec 23, 2019 8:39:13 GMT -5
If we are going to assign blame for where the basketball program finds itself this morning, I would like to nominate the good Jesuits who run The College of the Holy Cross. I realize the men's hoop program exists within a department that in turn exists within the college, (George Blaney once said what supporters of the program saw as the best thing for its future may not have been the best thing for the college), but if the good Jesuits wanted to be perennially strong in hoops and not necessarily at the higher levels of D1, we wouldn't be where we are today.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Dec 23, 2019 8:44:14 GMT -5
I don't think repeatjng time and time and time again we don't have D-1 players constitutes constructive criticism but maybe that's just me.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 23, 2019 8:54:12 GMT -5
I don't think repeatjng time and time and time again we don't have D-1 players constitutes constructive criticism but maybe that's just me. If the roster is full of legitimate D1 players, then maybe Nelson is “in ovah his head.” It’s either the talent on this roster is so bad that that we are losing to UMass Boston and getting run out of the Hart Center by Northeastern and Sacred Heart, or Nelson really just has no idea what he’s doing. My .02 — this roster has two legitimate D1 guys and then a bunch of role players that are being asked to do more than they are probably capable of at the moment. I don’t think we are this bad talent wise to be losing in the fashion we are, which is why Nelson shoulders some of the blame for these downright embarrassing losses.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 23, 2019 8:54:36 GMT -5
If we are going to assign blame for where the basketball program finds itself this morning, I would like to nominate the good Jesuits who run The College of the Holy Cross. I realize the men's hoop program exists within a department that in turn exists within the college, (George Blaney once said what supporters of the program saw as the best thing for its future may not have been the best thing for the college), but if the good Jesuits wanted to be perennially strong in hoops and not necessarily at the higher levels of D1, we wouldn't be where we are today. Nomination not seconded by this delegate. The good Jesuits, or mostly lay TPTB these days, sign the checks for market rate salaries for AD and coaches and spent $90 million on upgraded facilities to enhance competitiveness. HC only has one vote in the PL and no logical alternate league to hop to that would be a guaranteed improvement. What more can they do? They can't reconsider the Big East invitation now. That moldy offer surely had an expiration date.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 23, 2019 9:01:43 GMT -5
I suppose TPTB could try to be more flexible with admissions within the constraints of the AI. That's one thing I think is doable because at HC if you put the effort in academically the low professor/student ratio helps all students succeed in my experience.
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Post by possum on Dec 23, 2019 9:04:31 GMT -5
Not saying it doesn't change the fact that we don't have enough good players to compete. Not sure how you want to say it but the results on the court tell the story. As a great coach used to say "you are what your record says you are".
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Dec 23, 2019 9:05:44 GMT -5
I don't think repeatjng time and time and time again we don't have D-1 players constitutes constructive criticism but maybe that's just me. If the roster is full of legitimate D1 players, then maybe Nelson is “in ovah his head.” It’s either the talent on this roster is so bad that that we are losing to UMass Boston and getting run out of the Hart Center by Northeastern and Sacred Heart, or Nelson really just has no idea what he’s doing. My .02 — this roster has two legitimate D1 guys and then a bunch of role players that are being asked to do more than they are probably capable of at the moment. I don’t think we are this bad talent wise to be losing in the fashion we are, which is why Nelson shoulders some of the blame for these downright embarrassing losses. I am torn between CBN staying strong to his long term strategy, and tweaking enough to not just concede the present. As I think bbc said earlier, he does have a lot at stake; if he is a colossal failure then his second head coaching job might be hard to come by. On the other hand, does he have any obligation to the current players (and fans) to try to put them into a position to at least be more competitive?
To me, a D-1 role player is still a D-1 player, so I guess its a semantics thing.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Dec 23, 2019 9:08:13 GMT -5
I'll try to conform: we could use more players that fit with the way Coach Nelson wants to play.
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Post by trimster on Dec 23, 2019 9:10:42 GMT -5
A long time ago decisions were made to make HC largely irrelevant in D1 athletics and succeeding administrations have done nothing to change it. Holy Cross apparently is comfortable being where it is in the world of college athletics. Fans have had to decide whether or not to continue their support of the programs and for the most part, have moved on. I think the football program is at an appropriate level. I haven't felt that way about basketball for ages.
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Post by trimster on Dec 23, 2019 9:14:46 GMT -5
If the roster is full of legitimate D1 players, then maybe Nelson is “in ovah his head.” It’s either the talent on this roster is so bad that that we are losing to UMass Boston and getting run out of the Hart Center by Northeastern and Sacred Heart, or Nelson really just has no idea what he’s doing. My .02 — this roster has two legitimate D1 guys and then a bunch of role players that are being asked to do more than they are probably capable of at the moment. I don’t think we are this bad talent wise to be losing in the fashion we are, which is why Nelson shoulders some of the blame for these downright embarrassing losses. I am torn between CBN staying strong to his long term strategy, and tweaking enough to not just concede the present. As I think bbc said earlier, he does have a lot at stake; if he is a colossal failure then his second head coaching job might be hard to come by. On the other hand, does he have any obligation to the current players (and fans) to try to put them into a position to at least be more competitive?
To me, a D-1 role player is still a D-1 player, so I guess its a semantics thing.
I vote for doing what it takes given what you have, to win now.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 23, 2019 9:30:47 GMT -5
A long time ago decisions were made to make HC largely irrelevant in D1 athletics and succeeding administrations have done nothing to change it. Holy Cross apparently is comfortable being where it is in the world of college athletics. Fans have had to decide whether or not to continue their support of the programs and for the most part, have moved on. I think the football program is at an appropriate level. I haven't felt that way about basketball for ages. I do know what you mean but it is actually HC falling behind the PL in MBB now so the improvement has to come from within as opposed to expecting an administrative vote to leave the PL to improve the team. It's the same with AHA hockey. It's not the league holding us back, we are falling behind in the league. The formula for success is working with the Chesney model and it can work in MBB, too. One main difference is Chesney arrived after turning around multiple programs and Nelson arrived without similar turn around credits to a program that has quickly become a definitive turn around challenge.
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Post by trimster on Dec 23, 2019 9:52:45 GMT -5
I agree with your comments.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 23, 2019 9:56:56 GMT -5
I blame Carmody. He left us holding the bag when he announced his late retirement. Granted some sensitive family health reasons played into it but from a 2019-2020 basketball standpoint it was impossible to play catch-up. Just write this year off and move on to next year. 5 wins or fewer unfortunately. Why not blame Fenwick? After all, if he had not helped to found Holy Cross, there would not be teams there disappointing us today. The blame game is just a waste time. Did some of Carmody's decisions play a role in our current situation. Yes they did. And they are in the past and cannot be changed. Why not take your energy and speak instead about the present and the future? IMHO that could be more productive. After all, we cannot go back and join the Big East,no matter how much some wish we could. We cannot erase the coaching errors of Keaney or Brown nor can we hire someone else in their place at that time. That is long past. I believe a better question is, do we now have a strong, energetic coach who will lead us forward and upward? Despite the title of one thread, it is still far too early to tell. He did say up front that this team will look far different (not "better" just "different') in February and that he hoped the fans could be patient. I am willing to give him the patience for which he asked. Are you?
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Post by bringbackcaro on Dec 23, 2019 10:00:40 GMT -5
If the roster is full of legitimate D1 players, then maybe Nelson is “in ovah his head.” It’s either the talent on this roster is so bad that that we are losing to UMass Boston and getting run out of the Hart Center by Northeastern and Sacred Heart, or Nelson really just has no idea what he’s doing. My .02 — this roster has two legitimate D1 guys and then a bunch of role players that are being asked to do more than they are probably capable of at the moment. I don’t think we are this bad talent wise to be losing in the fashion we are, which is why Nelson shoulders some of the blame for these downright embarrassing losses. I am torn between CBN staying strong to his long term strategy, and tweaking enough to not just concede the present. As I think bbc said earlier, he does have a lot at stake; if he is a colossal failure then his second head coaching job might be hard to come by. On the other hand, does he have any obligation to the current players (and fans) to try to put them into a position to at least be more competitive?
To me, a D-1 role player is still a D-1 player, so I guess its a semantics thing.
Crosspride made a great point relating to this. It's not like the zone defense was even good last year -- it was a very poorly designed and executed defense that was bailed out by superlative interior defense by Jehyve Floyd. Our zone defense was ranked 248 by KenPom last year with Floyd. Right now we're an atrocious 345. Where do we get if Nelson just rolls out a 2-3 zone? 300? That's not going to change our results much at all. Syracuse does not play a 2-3 zone because they're "not athletic enough" to play a M2M. They play the zone because Boeheim knows how to teach it and create an advantage for his team and he spends a ton of time teaching it and working on it with his team. If Nelson does not feel that it's best for the program to devote a ton of time to installing a zone defense that might actually work OK (you can't just roll out a simple 2-3 in D1 and expect it to work), that's his decision and he will certainly be held accountable for his decision in 2-3 years when he has a roster that is capable of competing at this level.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 23, 2019 10:02:57 GMT -5
Well put, bcc. Real solutions are seldom as simple as some make them appear on Crossports, are they?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 23, 2019 10:06:09 GMT -5
17 points, 17 rebounds, 7 assists and but 1 turnover--many people would consider that a pretty good game. Yesterday: Andy Dalton: 396 yards, 4 TDs Ryan Fitzpatrick: 419 yards, 4 TDs They must be good/great quarterbacks. You've outdone yourself with this one--just too funny!!!
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Post by bison137 on Dec 23, 2019 10:08:44 GMT -5
If we are going to assign blame for where the basketball program finds itself this morning, I would like to nominate the good Jesuits who run The College of the Holy Cross. I realize the men's hoop program exists within a department that in turn exists within the college, (George Blaney once said what supporters of the program saw as the best thing for its future may not have been the best thing for the college), but if the good Jesuits wanted to be perennially strong in hoops and not necessarily at the higher levels of D1, we wouldn't be where we are today. The Jesuits who run HC have spent more money on the basketball program over the past decade than the administrations of the other PL programs. Rather than the Jesuits, I think much of the blame goes to whoever hired FCSK, FCMB, and FCBC. Had good hires been made, HC would very likely be near the top of the PL.
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Post by bison137 on Dec 23, 2019 10:11:33 GMT -5
I suppose TPTB could try to be more flexible with admissions within the constraints of the AI. That's one thing I think is doable because at HC if you put the effort in academically the low professor/student ratio helps all students succeed in my experience. HC doesn't have admissions constraints that most of the other PL members don't have. It's easy to blame them - but, as I said above, most of the problem has been the coaching hires.
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Post by Tom on Dec 23, 2019 10:17:15 GMT -5
As I think bbc said earlier, he does have a lot at stake; if he is a colossal failure then his second head coaching job might be hard to come by. On the other hand, does he have any obligation to the current players (and fans) to try to put them into a position to at least be more competitive?
I am in no means saying that Coach Nelson is in a league with Coach Kearney, but Coach Kearney has not been an assistant coach, never mind a head coach since his time on the hill. Not a bad assumption
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 23, 2019 10:20:26 GMT -5
I think bison137 is right on the money. The coach makes all the difference and in basketball we have had sub-optimal choices. We see in Bob Chesney, a hire that some of us lauded and that some others suggested was a mistake, a coach who immediately elevated the program. He should help us move forward even more this coming season and thereafter. The Luth, approved by TPTB, absolutely helps the program in my opinion. TPTB and Admissions have not held him back. TPTB thought enough of the basketball program to eat two years of Kearney's salary. We can't tell yet where Brett Nelson falls on the coach spectrum that runs from Kearney on one end to Willard/Chesney on the other
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