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Post by timholycross on Dec 23, 2019 10:21:43 GMT -5
Father Brooks desperately wanted (and made happen) Holy Cross in the basketball league they're in.
Nothing about the man that I recall indicates he wanted Holy Cross to be a doormat in that league.
Re: zone. I believe with the personnel Nelson has at it's disposal a 2-3 would prevent a lot of inside stuff but in this day and age our opponents would be setting 3 point field goal success records.
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Post by gks on Dec 23, 2019 10:23:25 GMT -5
I suppose TPTB could try to be more flexible with admissions within the constraints of the AI. That's one thing I think is doable because at HC if you put the effort in academically the low professor/student ratio helps all students succeed in my experience. HC doesn't have admissions constraints that most of the other PL members don't have. It's easy to blame them - but, as I said above, most of the problem has been the coaching hires. This could not be any further from the truth. Admissions is the number 1, 2 and 3 reasons why sports stink at HC. Chesney has figured it out and the department was afraid of Ralph Willard. Only two exceptions.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 23, 2019 10:31:04 GMT -5
HC doesn't have admissions constraints that most of the other PL members don't have. It's easy to blame them - but, as I said above, most of the problem has been the coaching hires. This could not be any further from the truth. Admissions is the number 1, 2 and 3 reasons why sports stink at HC. Chesney has figured it out and the department was afraid of Ralph Willard. Only two exceptions. Dick Regan works at an aquarium in Florida and never got back into college athletics following his "retirement" from HC. Sean Kearney is in an administrative role with the A10. Milan Brown is an assistant coach at Pitt. Bill Carmody is at the Jersey Shore enjoying, hopefully, retirement while caring for his ill wife. Nate Pine is the AD at Air Force. While admissions at HC is, no doubt, a hurdle, I think our failures came from poor leadership and hires by those responsible for running the HC basketball program (look at where these guys are now following HC). None of the preceding names have advanced in their careers following HC, with the exception of Pine (although I think he was on his way out of HC, which he knew, which led him to looking for another job). This is not complicated to figure out -- Regan and Pine made three very poor hires, which led to poor results. Can't blame admissions for the terrible state this program is currently mired in.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 23, 2019 10:58:17 GMT -5
HC doesn't have admissions constraints that most of the other PL members don't have. It's easy to blame them - but, as I said above, most of the problem has been the coaching hires. This could not be any further from the truth. Admissions is the number 1, 2 and 3 reasons why sports stink at HC. Chesney has figured it out and the department was afraid of Ralph Willard. Only two exceptions. What was Ralph's big stick he used to frighten Admissions? Not doubting your contention but can't think of anything besides his salary that would be intimidating.
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Post by trimster on Dec 23, 2019 11:09:58 GMT -5
This could not be any further from the truth. Admissions is the number 1, 2 and 3 reasons why sports stink at HC. Chesney has figured it out and the department was afraid of Ralph Willard. Only two exceptions. Dick Regan works at an aquarium in Florida and never got back into college athletics following his "retirement" from HC. Sean Kearney is in an administrative role with the A10. Milan Brown is an assistant coach at Pitt. Bill Carmody is at the Jersey Shore enjoying, hopefully, retirement while caring for his ill wife. Nate Pine is the AD at Air Force. While admissions at HC is, no doubt, a hurdle, I think our failures came from poor leadership and hires by those responsible for running the HC basketball program (look at where these guys are now following HC). None of the preceding names have advanced in their careers following HC, with the exception of Pine (although I think he was on his way out of HC, which he knew, which led him to looking for another job). This is not complicated to figure out -- Regan and Pine made three very poor hires, which led to poor results. Can't blame admissions for the terrible state this program is currently mired in. Let us not forget Dick Regan was the person who hired Ralph Willard.
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Post by lou on Dec 23, 2019 11:11:28 GMT -5
The same guy who hired FCSK and FCMB hired FCRW
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Dec 23, 2019 11:16:55 GMT -5
Anyone on this message board could have hired Ralph Willard after he was fired from Pitt and HC was looking for its next head coach after firing Raynor.
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Post by hc87 on Dec 23, 2019 12:09:15 GMT -5
A long time ago decisions were made to make HC largely irrelevant in D1 athletics and succeeding administrations have done nothing to change it. Holy Cross apparently is comfortable being where it is in the world of college athletics. Fans have had to decide whether or not to continue their support of the programs and for the most part, have moved on. I think the football program is at an appropriate level. I haven't felt that way about basketball for ages. Just wanted to say that this perfectly summarizes my feelings about HC hoop/football. That and a $1.06 will get you a cup of coffee at Cumby's...just wanted to give you a shout out on this trimster. As bad as we are now in hoop, we could be significantly better at this level (low mid-major) and it mostly wouldn't matter to most ( alums, students, CMass etc)
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 23, 2019 12:18:12 GMT -5
A long time ago decisions were made to make HC largely irrelevant in D1 athletics and succeeding administrations have done nothing to change it. Holy Cross apparently is comfortable being where it is in the world of college athletics. Fans have had to decide whether or not to continue their support of the programs and for the most part, have moved on. I think the football program is at an appropriate level. I haven't felt that way about basketball for ages. Just wanted to say that this perfectly summarizes my feelings about HC hoop/football. That and a $1.06 will get you a cup of coffee at Cumby's...just wanted to give you a shout out on this trimster. As bad as we are now in hoop, we could be significantly better at this level (low mid-major) and it mostly wouldn't matter to most ( alums, students, CMass etc) The Haaht Center could use a Cumbys ninety-nine cent coffee stand.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 23, 2019 12:22:17 GMT -5
This could not be any further from the truth. Admissions is the number 1, 2 and 3 reasons why sports stink at HC. Chesney has figured it out and the department was afraid of Ralph Willard. Only two exceptions. Dick Regan works at an aquarium in Florida and never got back into college athletics following his "retirement" from HC. Sean Kearney is in an administrative role with the A10. Milan Brown is an assistant coach at Pitt. Bill Carmody is at the Jersey Shore enjoying, hopefully, retirement while caring for his ill wife. Nate Pine is the AD at Air Force. While admissions at HC is, no doubt, a hurdle, I think our failures came from poor leadership and hires by those responsible for running the HC basketball program (look at where these guys are now following HC). None of the preceding names have advanced in their careers following HC, with the exception of Pine (although I think he was on his way out of HC, which he knew, which led him to looking for another job). This is not complicated to figure out -- Regan and Pine made three very poor hires, which led to poor results. Can't blame admissions for the terrible state this program is currently mired in. The skeptical side of me wondered if the underperforming coaches were hired for what they represented rather than their proven ability to win as a head coach.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 23, 2019 12:24:55 GMT -5
Tom, I am not sure what it is you are assuming. "I am in no means saying that Coach Nelson is in a league with Coach Kearney, but Coach Kearney has not been an assistant coach, never mind a head coach since his time on the hill. Not a bad assumption"
Coach Kearney is not coaching. Coach Nelson is a head coach. What is the connection? What is the assumption you reference?
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 23, 2019 12:34:35 GMT -5
You talking to me?☺️
When SK was hired I felt good about the ND connection and felt "Hey, if any of the magic that ND has been able to catch in a bottle, of Catholic identity, Strong Academics and iconic athletics can rub off on HC, why not?"
But when I saw him coach every game as a season ticket holder back then I made my own determination he was not ready to take over his own D-1 program and the skeptical side of me wondered if too much weight was given to his ND pedigree in the hiring decision.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 23, 2019 12:40:55 GMT -5
Just re-read your post, you weren't talking to me. My thoughts anyways.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Dec 23, 2019 12:45:52 GMT -5
Tom, I am not sure what it is you are assuming. "I am in no means saying that Coach Nelson is in a league with Coach Kearney, but Coach Kearney has not been an assistant coach, never mind a head coach since his time on the hill. Not a bad assumption" Coach Kearney is not coaching. Coach Nelson is a head coach. What is the connection? What is the assumption you reference? I should let Tom answer for himself, but I think he was speaking to my speculation that CBN might have a hard time getting his next head coaching gig if The Full Nelson flops here (and I'm not saying it will at all). He notes the common ground of both guys first head coaching jobs were at HC. He'll correct me if I'm wrong.
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Post by Tom on Dec 23, 2019 13:01:47 GMT -5
Ya, Dave hit it.
I quoted him in my post that Coach Nelson has a lot at stake, and if his tenure on the hill is a colossal failure, he will have a hard time getting a head coaching gig.
I do not think the Nelson era will be anything like the Kearney era and I don't want to compare Coach Nelson's coaching abilities to Coach Kearney's. However, in part based on the fact that Coach Kearney never got any kind of coaching job after HC , head or assistant, I think the original premise was valid. Coach Nelson has a lot at stake and if his tenure at Holy Cross is a colossal failure (and I don't think it will be), he will have a hard time getting a second head coaching job
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 23, 2019 13:24:40 GMT -5
One difference between SK and BN is that BN will almost assuredly get a full or close to full recruiting cycle. BN's honeymoon period coincides with ADMB's honeymoon period and everybody wants to see both succeed. Even if one or more players leave they are not "his" players fully. He coached them but didn't recruit them.
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Post by Ray on Dec 23, 2019 14:03:25 GMT -5
We expected Kearney's first team to compete for a PL title. There were no such expectations for this team. Apples and oranges, people.
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Post by Tom on Dec 23, 2019 14:29:27 GMT -5
Absolutely the year one expectations are apples and oranges.
Still, NAD and BBC are right. When it's your first head coaching gig, if the results are cataclysmically abysmal you probably won't get a second chance. Coach Nelson has a lot at stake.
However, given the context of the situation, there will be some patience. We might look back at year one of the Nelson era and say the three words that best describe it are stink, stank, stunk. Coach Nelson has a lot at stake because if those three words best describe season four as well, his career as a coach might be over. If year four is a Sweet 16 bid for HC, he's a rising star
The only comparison being made to Coach Kearney is they both got their first head coaching jobs at HC. The lesson from Coach Kearney is that if you bomb in your first gig, you don't get a second gig. The take away is: Don't bomb.
Season one might fail to meet low expectations. It's still way too early to determine if the Nelson era is a bomb
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Post by bikeman on Dec 23, 2019 14:36:43 GMT -5
If I were a high school or AAU coach, I would advise my D1 level players not to consider HC. I would tell them you'll get just as good an education elsewhere and play for a school that cares about athletics and supports their athletes.
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Post by Ray on Dec 23, 2019 14:37:07 GMT -5
^^ sure, agree.
But there's another difference, in that I don't know whether Kearney or Regan had figured out that SK was "ovah his head" at this time in his first/only season... (personally, I think we had some pretty compelling evidence in the OOC season). No matter what we've seen to date, there is zero chance that Nelson's chance ends after one season.
This is only important because he doesn't have to make any short-term choices like switching to a zone defense. He can continue to make decisions based on what is best for the program, and what he thinks sets up those successful year 3/4 scenarios. He's not literally coaching for his job right now.
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 23, 2019 14:52:43 GMT -5
If I were a high school or AAU coach, I would advise my D1 level players not to consider HC. I would tell them you'll get just as good an education elsewhere and play for a school that cares about athletics and supports their athletes. Perhaps you should post on the blog of some other school...in "elsewhere." It sounds from your post that anywhere else would be better than HC. Do you have the knowledge to make such a call. Sounds like you would be steering some players to a bench at some prpogramns instead of a building program where they might actually get a chance to play. HC worked pretty well for Miller, Floyd, Dudzinski, and others. Your opinion is certainly yours and can be whatever you want. I had thought by coming to Crossports that you might be a Holy Cross fan. I guess not. PS: Do you realy feel that any college "elsewhere" will give students just as good an academic experience as Holy Cross? If you think that is true, I would love to know on what facts you base that.
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Post by efg72 on Dec 23, 2019 15:52:46 GMT -5
Well stated -#newstart
Coach Keith Wade @wadesworld32 · Dec 22 One thing I will never do is watch a game and criticize a coach for execution or substitution pattern. None of us are behind the scenes and we definitely are not at practice. I have yet to meet a coach that makes decisions (on purpose) to lose?!?!?!
Michele @michelebutler05 · 21h Not the outcome we wanted but proud of the efforts of this @hcrossmbb team for not giving up & especially @austinbutler44 for his fight! These guys are working hard, have had a tough road schedule the last few weeks and finished a grueling week of finals. #turnthepage #newstart
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 23, 2019 16:29:05 GMT -5
If I were a high school or AAU coach, I would advise my D1 level players not to consider HC. I would tell them you'll get just as good an education elsewhere and play for a school that cares about athletics and supports their athletes. Perhaps you should post on the blog of some other school...in "elsewhere." It sounds from your post that anywhere else would be better than HC. Do you have the knowledge to make such a call. Sounds like you would be steering some players to a bench at some prpogramns instead of a building program where they might actually get a chance to play. HC worked pretty well for Miller, Floyd, Dudzinski, and others. Your opinion is certainly yours and can be whatever you want. I had thought by coming to Crossports that you might be a Holy Cross fan. I guess not. PS: Do you realy feel that any college "elsewhere" will give students just as good an academic experience as Holy Cross? If you think that is true, I would love to know on what facts you base that. I'll see you Miller, Floyd and Dudzinski and raise you Torey Thomas, Keith Simmons and RJ Evans. All six made nice career starts in BB helped by the grounding they received in BB at HC as well as their academic degree.
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Post by bikeman on Dec 23, 2019 18:13:01 GMT -5
Has anyone from administration ever stated that our "marquee" sport sucking so bad,as it had for years now, is unacceptable? No, because they don't care. The phony academic "elitism" often exhibited on this board is tiring. That is another turn off to local fans. Believe it or not, there are other colleges and universities that offer unique and rewarding experiences. By the way, Ive been a HC fan for over 50 years. Many family and friends are distinguished alumni who feel the way I do. Sorry if the truth hurts.
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Post by efg72 on Dec 23, 2019 18:40:23 GMT -5
Truth never hurts and appreciate your perspective
Tell me the three things you would change, and if we can get alignment by most that post, I will be happy to invest in the effort
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