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Post by nycrusader2010 on Jul 16, 2022 8:50:50 GMT -5
Holy Cross would almost assuredly be in the CAA for all sports today if the Patriot League didn't come around. MAAC hoops until the turn if the century or whenever it was when the NCAA squashed football only conferences such as the Yankee. No way would have tolerated the brief existence of MAAC football. They didn't squash football-only conferences (the Pioneer League still exists and the Missouri Valley Football Conference is actually separate from the Missouri Valley Conference). Yankee Conference never died, the A-10 took over the stewardship in 1997 and CAA took over in 2007. I think you're right -- HC either would've been CAA all sports at this point or America East but CAA Football affiliate. If the PL/Colonial League had never formed, maybe HC would've been an indy in football until early 1990's and then joined the Yankee, which became the CAA. We could've either stayed in the MAAC in all other sports if we wanted, even up until today, but would've potentially been invited by the CAA for all sports in any of the last three rounds of expansion by that league. And we also could have left the MAAC to join the America East when that league officially formed in the mid-1990's -- I believe the AE is a descendant of the old North Atlantic Conference. I guess it's also possible that if you could re-write HC basketball history from 1991-1995 and had us never join the PL and drop scholarships, maybe we get invited to the Atlantic 10 in 1995 alongside Fordham when they joined.
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Post by bigfan on Jul 16, 2022 9:05:14 GMT -5
AD Ron Perry met with A-10 and they invited HC but Father Brooks said NO.
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Post by trimster on Jul 16, 2022 9:38:11 GMT -5
AD Ron Perry met with A-10 and they invited HC but Father Brooks said NO. I believe that happened a few years after the Big East formed. Obviously Fr. Brooks had a far different vision for HC athletics than people like Perry and Blaney had. Athletic scholarships weren't part of that vision and the PL was a means to eliminate them. I recall reading a quote that he didn't think it was socially just that students could attend HC for nothing due to their ability to put a ball in a hoop or lug the pigskin.
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Post by timholycross on Jul 16, 2022 10:00:17 GMT -5
The A10 situation occurred in 1982. Left on a business trip and a Providence Journal article said we were in that league. Picked up USA Today down south the next day and it was two other schools.
There was no pressure on schools to get in a league for all sports; it was entirely HC and the rest of the PL's decision to expand the grand experiment to other sports a good 4 or 5 years later. It sucked that basketball had righted its ship in the late 80s and then the scholarship plug got pulled.
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Post by hc87 on Jul 16, 2022 10:23:51 GMT -5
I looked at Rutgers schedule in 1969, the 100th anniversary (series w/Princeton lasted another 11 years). I think we were their 10th game because they only played 9. 3 Ivies, 3 PLs (LC, LU, Colgate), Uconn, Delaware & Navy. From that to the Big 10. What a difference a half century makes. Yeah, it's seems like the 1970s was the decade when schools like Rutgers, Temple and even BC to some extent, went from playing a mostly regional football schedule playing some Ivies, then Yankee now CAA schools to a more national schedule. Here is Rutgers schedule in 1980: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Rutgers_Scarlet_Knights_football_teamThey still played a couple Ivies and W&M but also nearly beat then #1 Alabama that year. We last played them in 1979. By 1981 the smaller D1 schools in the Northeast, Colgate, William&Mary, HC etc wre basically out of the mix with the D1 Eastern Indys, ACC etc. Villanova dropped football for a few years at that time. Point being, we went from being at roughly the same level of football as the BC's, the Syracuse's, the Rutger's etc in the late 1960s to being at a level below them by 1980. Not arguing either way if this was a good or bad thing just that the decade of the 1970s was where you see that divide between those programs in the East at the FBS level today and the Ivies, HC, Colgate, Villanova etc.
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 16, 2022 12:38:32 GMT -5
The A10 situation occurred in 1982. Left on a business trip and a Providence Journal article said we were in that league. Picked up USA Today down south the next day and it was two other schools. There was no pressure on schools to get in a league for all sports; it was entirely HC and the rest of the PL's decision to expand the grand experiment to other sports a good 4 or 5 years later. It sucked that basketball had righted its ship in the late 80s and then the scholarship plug got pulled. That's what you get for flying out of T. F. Green.
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 16, 2022 13:00:34 GMT -5
I looked at Rutgers schedule in 1969, the 100th anniversary (series w/Princeton lasted another 11 years). I think we were their 10th game because they only played 9. 3 Ivies, 3 PLs (LC, LU, Colgate), Uconn, Delaware & Navy. From that to the Big 10. What a difference a half century makes. Yeah, it's seems like the 1970s was the decade when schools like Rutgers, Temple and even BC to some extent, went from playing a mostly regional football schedule playing some Ivies, then Yankee now CAA schools to a more national schedule. Here is Rutgers schedule in 1980: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Rutgers_Scarlet_Knights_football_teamThey still played a couple Ivies and W&M but also nearly beat then #1 Alabama that year. We last played them in 1979. By 1981 the smaller D1 schools in the Northeast, Colgate, William&Mary, HC etc wre basically out of the mix with the D1 Eastern Indys, ACC etc. Villanova dropped football for a few years at that time. Point being, we went from being at roughly the same level of football as the BC's, the Syracuse's, the Rutger's etc in the late 1960s to being at a level below them by 1980. Not arguing either way if this was a good or bad thing just that the decade of the 1970s was where you see that divide between those programs in the East at the FBS level today and the Ivies, HC, Colgate, Villanova etc. William and Mary, Villanova, Colgate. What's not to like about being in the same football sub-division with these fine institutions? We'll never know how Central Mass would have responded to Holy Cross Basketball in the BE or A-10. My guess is rabidly if HC became a national factor. I assume the vast majority of us would have sided with Perry and Blaney. Those two in their prime would have given HC a darn good shot at success.
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Post by mm67 on Jul 16, 2022 13:37:02 GMT -5
I had not realized Colgate had been a member of the CAA. This was a huge change in Colgate's priorities & policies. Well, well the world is always filled with surprises.
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 16, 2022 14:07:58 GMT -5
I had not realized Colgate had been a member of the CAA. This was a huge change in Colgate's priorities & policies. Well, well the world is always filled with surprises. Although both Anerican University and Navy are past members of the CAA when it was called ECAC South, Colgate has never been a member. Colgate Football was always independent before the PL and has a proud history. In 1932 the Red Raiders went 9-0 and outscored their opponents 284-0. They were named co-national champions by Parke H. Davis but did not receive an invitation to the 1933 Rose Bowl. Thus, that team was referred to as "undefeated, un-tied, un-scored upon and uninvited." Colgate boasts two Heisman Trophy winners but the article I read didn't name them. Who would they be?
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Post by mm67 on Jul 16, 2022 15:10:03 GMT -5
I had not realized Colgate had been a member of the CAA. This was a huge change in Colgate's priorities & policies. Well, well the world is always filled with surprises. Although both Anerican University and Navy are past members of the CAA when it was called ECAC South, Colgate has never been a member. Colgate Football was always independent before the PL and has a proud history. In 1932 the Red Raiders went 9-0 and outscored their opponents 284-0. They were named co-national champions by Parke H. Davis but did not receive an invitation to the 1933 Rose Bowl. Thus, that team was referred to as "undefeated, un-tied, un-scored upon and uninvited." Colgate boasts two Heisman Trophy winners but the article I read didn't name them. Who would they be? Thank you. I was under the impression Colgate had been member of the CAA from your post. I misunderstood. Hasn't Colgate traditionally not offered football scholarships until relatively recently?
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 16, 2022 16:20:50 GMT -5
IDK, but it would seem hard to beat your opponents 284-0 without some kind of scholarship assistance to the players. I wonder if the Ivy League offered some kind of athletic scholarship during the years they challenged for national championships.
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Post by HC92 on Jul 16, 2022 16:36:20 GMT -5
I had not realized Colgate had been a member of the CAA. This was a huge change in Colgate's priorities & policies. Well, well the world is always filled with surprises. Although both Anerican University and Navy are past members of the CAA when it was called ECAC South, Colgate has never been a member. Colgate Football was always independent before the PL and has a proud history. In 1932 the Red Raiders went 9-0 and outscored their opponents 284-0. They were named co-national champions by Parke H. Davis but did not receive an invitation to the 1933 Rose Bowl. Thus, that team was referred to as "undefeated, un-tied, un-scored upon and uninvited." Colgate boasts two Heisman Trophy winners but the article I read didn't name them. Who would they be? I don’t believe Colgate has ever had a Heisman winner even though Wikipedia says they have had two. It was first awarded in 1935. The only school currently playing football in the PL that has ever had a top 3 finisher was Holy Cross with Gordie in 1987. Army and Navy have each had multiple winners.
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 16, 2022 19:13:49 GMT -5
You are correct. Yale has two winners but Harvard has none.
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Post by hc87 on Jul 16, 2022 19:34:47 GMT -5
Not sure how it worked for Colgate (and the Ivies) back in the 70s and 80s then vis a vis financial aid for football players but they were getting fabulous players in that era...I'm near certain most players in that era were getting fairly hefty financial aid (not an outright athlectic scholarship) then. Guys like Marv Hubbard, Marc van Eehgan, Kenny Gamble, Mark Murphy, Steve Calabria et. al. were not paying full freight to play football in Hamilton.
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Post by bfoley82 on Jul 18, 2022 10:03:52 GMT -5
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 18, 2022 10:29:34 GMT -5
It would be ironic if the Runnin' Rebels have a passing offense. Good Get for the Bulldogs.
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Post by hc6774 on Jul 18, 2022 10:33:15 GMT -5
Not sure how it worked for Colgate (and the Ivies) back in the 70s and 80s then vis a vis financial aid for football players but they were getting fabulous players in that era...I'm near certain most players in that era were getting fairly hefty financial aid (not an outright athlectic scholarship) then. Guys like Marv Hubbard, Marc van Eehgan, Kenny Gamble, Mark Murphy, Steve Calabria et. al. were not paying full freight to play football in Hamilton. In the 60's room & board was a much larger part of cost of attendance... about 50% @ HC Not uncommon for varsity players to be RA's which included r&b
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 18, 2022 10:37:00 GMT -5
When the nose tackle says turn down the music, you turn it down.
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Post by hc87 on Jul 18, 2022 11:06:08 GMT -5
Pivoting back to future HC schedules, it's been rumored here that we are at Army in 2024, just curious if anyone here has any inside info on that?
We can play 12 games in both 2024 and 2025...currently just Northern Illinois in '25 and no FBS officially scheduled in '24. Do you think we should play 2 FBS games those seasons?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jul 18, 2022 11:26:54 GMT -5
Pivoting back to future HC schedules, it's been rumored here that we are at Army in 2024, just curious if anyone here has any inside info on that? We can play 12 games in both 2024 and 2025...currently just Northern Illinois in '25 and no FBS officially scheduled in '24. Do you think we should play 2 FBS games those seasons? Sure, why not get paid to rack up two solid wins?
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Post by efg72 on Jul 18, 2022 11:55:46 GMT -5
I would be fine with 2 FBS teams as long as they are ranked in the bottom third/bottom half of the FBS teams
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 18, 2022 12:57:50 GMT -5
Pivoting back to future HC schedules, it's been rumored here that we are at Army in 2024, just curious if anyone here has any inside info on that? We can play 12 games in both 2024 and 2025...currently just Northern Illinois in '25 and no FBS officially scheduled in '24. Do you think we should play 2 FBS games those seasons? Yes, and I wouldn't back away from a middling ACC team...down the street.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Jul 18, 2022 16:32:15 GMT -5
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 18, 2022 21:02:24 GMT -5
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Post by gerry on Jul 19, 2022 6:07:32 GMT -5
One of the scheduled games is Lafayette, so only three OOC games on the '24 schedule. Assuming the Harvard series is long term, they would be the fourth. FBS game would be five. If the schedule breaks down to one FBS, two CAA, and two top Ivy's, they may want to add an NEC as a potential 12th game.
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