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Post by gks on Feb 10, 2022 15:09:25 GMT -5
That final 2003 game vs. Colgate was one of the best games at Fitton of the last 20 years. I have never seen a league that handcuffs itself more than the Patriot League. I could care less about the rest of the league. I hope HC steamrolls and demoralizes every other team in this league. At this point I'm sure Chesney and the team see the PL as a necessary evil. Schedule a powerhouse non-league schedule. Forget the Ivies. Rest of the country thinks their football is meaningless and those games do nothing when it comes to FCS playoff seedings. Is it September yet? Confused me about the Ivies. A game against a fifteenth ranked Ivy team counts the same as a game against a fifteenth ranked CAA or NEC team when Playoff seedings are calculated does it not? The IL plays twenty-four games per year against other FCS teams (UConn is FCS in talent level😂) so their competitive strength is not a guessing game for the seeding committee, many of whom have presumably lost recruits and/or games to the Ancient Eight. You want to get higher seeds in a quest for a national championship...you're better off scheduling Maine, URI, Nova, etc in regular season. Ivy football is irrelevant in the national picture. That is the goal of this coaching staff.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 10, 2022 15:18:13 GMT -5
That only depends on the rankings. Harvard and Yale, whom we play and will play regularly in the foreseeable future, will not be the ones that diminish our status with the selection committee. Losing to Merrimacks of the world will. I, for one, am pretty happy to be playing Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth or even Brown. Of course, I'd like to see us play Villanova in other than a playoff game and URI is close to home for me. And, at the risk of a reaction pro/con about Foley, I like playing UNH too. Would really like to see games against UMass, UConn, BC, Army on a semi-regular basis. Syracuse? No thanks . . . . . unless they want to come to Fitton.
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Post by midwestsader05 on Feb 10, 2022 15:22:36 GMT -5
I agree LS. My preference for future scheduling would be as follows (starting in 2023 as the 2022 schedule is likely baked)
5 Total OOC games per season: 1 competitive FBS game - for all the reasons known and stated 1-2 Ivies - preferably only Harvard and/or Yale. We have tons of history with these New England rivals. We increasingly compete head to head for the top third of our respective recruiting classes. Our players enjoy competing with and beating these programs. Dartmouth or Brown should be the ONLY other Ivies even considered as a back-up option to H/Y do to their New England proximity. I don't see the benefit of scheduling a home and home with Penn, Princeton, Cornell or Columbia.
2-3 CAA's - the 4 Northern programs that make most sense are Nova, UNH, URI, and Monmouth (do to our Jersey pipeline). Maine, Albany and Stony Brook don't really provide any reciprocal value. As for the Southern CAA Programs, less likely but if we were to get a home and home with 1 or 2 over the next 4-5 years, Richmond and W&M clearly make the most sense. I think Delaware would also be intriguing. We should never even sniff Towson, Elon or Hampton.
NEC - while I would not be surprised if a NEC team has to be considered every now and then, I don't think we should pro-actively seek any out. One central reason, I believe the winner of the PL and NEC are increasingly likely to become the de-facto first round playoff game in most seasons. There is no way either league champ is getting a first round bye without going at least 10-1 in the regular season (with your only loss to an FBS school.) It might even take an 11-0 undefeated season to guarantee that first round bye and a Top 8 seed for the foreseeable future.
2018 Colgate is the most relevant recent example. They went 10-1 and crushed every FCS opponent that year except the first two of the season (7 point victories against HC in Chesney's first game and UNH.) They finished the year by giving a 9-2 Army team all they could handle in a 28-14 loss and squeaked in a first round bye with the #8 overall seed.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 10, 2022 15:34:02 GMT -5
I agree LS. My preference for future scheduling would be as follows (starting in 2023 as the 2022 schedule is likely baked) 5 Total OOC games per season: 1 competitive FBS game - for all the reasons known and stated 1-2 Ivies - preferably only Harvard and/or Yale. We have tons of history with these New England rivals. We increasingly compete head to head for the top third of our respective recruiting classes. Our players enjoy competing with and beating these programs. Dartmouth or Brown should be the ONLY other Ivies even considered as a back-up option to H/Y do to their New England proximity. I don't see the benefit of scheduling a home and home with Penn, Princeton, Cornell or Columbia. 2-3 CAA's - the 4 Northern programs that make most sense are Nova, UNH, URI, and Monmouth (do to our Jersey pipeline). Maine, Albany and Stony Brook don't really provide any reciprocal value. As for the Southern CAA Programs, less likely but if we were to get a home and home with 1 or 2 over the next 4-5 years, Richmond and W&M clearly make the most sense. I think Delaware would also be intriguing. We should never even sniff Towson, Elon or Hampton. NEC - while I would not be surprised if a NEC team has to be considered every now and then, I don't think we should pro-actively seek any out. One central reason, I believe the winner of the PL and NEC are increasingly likely to become the de-facto first round playoff game in most seasons. There is no way either league champ is getting a first round bye without going at least 10-1 in the regular season (with your only loss to an FBS school.) It might even take an 11-0 undefeated season to get that first round bye and a Top 8 seed for the foreseeable future. I'd love to see a Monmouth game every year for that exact Jersey reason: to help us keep getting the St Peters guys and Bergen Catholic guys and top players from the other NJ programs
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Post by bfoley82 on Feb 10, 2022 15:34:20 GMT -5
I agree LS. My preference for future scheduling would be as follows (starting in 2023 as the 2022 schedule is likely baked) 5 Total OOC games per season: 1 competitive FBS game - for all the reasons known and stated 1-2 Ivies - preferably only Harvard and/or Yale. We have tons of history with these New England rivals. We increasingly compete head to head for the top third of our respective recruiting classes. Our players enjoy competing with and beating these programs. Dartmouth or Brown should be the ONLY other Ivies even considered as a back-up option to H/Y do to their New England proximity. I don't see the benefit of scheduling a home and home with Penn, Princeton, Cornell or Columbia. 2-3 CAA's - the 4 Northern programs that make most sense are Nova, UNH, URI, and Monmouth (do to our Jersey pipeline). Maine, Albany and Stony Brook don't really provide any reciprocal value. As for the Southern CAA Programs, less likely but if we were to get a home and home with 1 or 2 over the next 4-5 years, Richmond and W&M clearly make the most sense. I think Delaware would also be intriguing. We should never even sniff Towson, Elon or Hampton. NEC - while I would not be surprised if a NEC team has to be considered every now and then, I don't think we should pro-actively seek any out. One central reason, I believe the winner of the PL and NEC are increasingly likely to become the de-facto first round playoff game in most seasons. There is no way either league champ is getting a first round bye without going at least 10-1 in the regular season (with your only loss to an FBS school.) It might even take an 11-0 undefeated season to get that first round bye and a Top 8 seed for the foreseeable future. You don't consider playing Princeton in Jersey as a benefit but consider playing Monmouth a benefit? Hint Princeton has been at near the top of the Ivy the last few seasons. Columbia for the NYC connections on the road also. I see no reason to play Cornell though. Albany is a great opponent in the CAA for Holy Cross, they have a legit stadium (also about a two hour drive from Worcester) and play in the same conference as UNH, URI, and Monmouth.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 10, 2022 15:47:50 GMT -5
Thanks-- we were not aware of where Albany was located--this puts things in better perspective for us all.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 10, 2022 17:37:43 GMT -5
Hopefully, More PL programs will up their competitiveness while competing within PL rules. Other PL schools have competed at a high level. It can be done. It's likely to go the other way. HC (and maybe Colgate) is the only Patriot school with an upward trajectory right now.
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Post by td128 on Feb 10, 2022 18:16:03 GMT -5
Coach Chesney: A total class act who embodies a true Commitment to Excellence in winning on and off the field.
Let’s Win!! ✝️👏🏻🏈👏🏾✝️
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 10, 2022 19:06:32 GMT -5
Coach Chesney: A total class act who embodies a true Commitment to Excellence in winning on and off the field. Let’s Win!! ✝️👏🏻🏈👏🏾✝️ Great Tweet. Welcome back TD.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 10, 2022 19:23:13 GMT -5
Hopefully, More PL programs will up their competitiveness while competing within PL rules. Other PL schools have competed at a high level. It can be done. It's likely to go the other way. HC (and maybe Colgate) is the only Patriot school with an upward trajectory right now. I sense Lehigh bouncing back from the depths. Fordham has it's star QB and linebacker back. Lafayette and Bucknell are spending near what HC spends. Georgetown is world class in many areas. If title IX is scaring the administration away from granting football scholarships, it's ironic it is a short hop away from the building where that law was passed.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 10, 2022 19:48:41 GMT -5
Georgetown is world class in many areas. If title IX is scaring the administration away from granting football scholarships, it's ironic it is a short hop away from the building where that law was passed. Doubling the entire number of athletic scholarships offered by the University just to finish 5th in the Patriot League is fiscal malpractice. That said, Holy Cross could lap the other six and then face a different set of questions.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 10, 2022 20:45:44 GMT -5
Georgetown is world class in many areas. If title IX is scaring the administration away from granting football scholarships, it's ironic it is a short hop away from the building where that law was passed. Doubling the entire number of athletic scholarships offered by the University just to finish 5th in the Patriot League is fiscal malpractice. That said, Holy Cross could lap the other six and then face a different set of questions. I hope we never have to break up this old gang of ours. I have grown to admire the PL and like the FB grouping. I don't look down on Loyola, American and Boston U. and certainly not the service academies who are giving their all in FBS, but I appreciate the schools who are offering football and the two Jesuit Universities who join us at summer's end and say goodbye til next year when frost is on the pumpkin.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 11, 2022 8:01:26 GMT -5
Georgetown is world class in many areas. If title IX is scaring the administration away from granting football scholarships, it's ironic it is a short hop away from the building where that law was passed. Doubling the entire number of athletic scholarships offered by the University just to finish 5th in the Patriot League is fiscal malpractice. That said, Holy Cross could lap the other six and then face a different set of questions. Georgetown's bind is that it is 43:57 M/F, and athletic financial aid in 2019-20 was 48:52 M/F. (Holy Cross is trending toward GU's 43:57 ratio., which could have significant implications, going forward.) As most are aware, the Ivies offer no merit scollie aid, only need-based aid. Princeton in the fiscal year ending June 30, 2021, ended the year with a $322 million operating surplus. (You might think of it as 'profit'.) The net revenue from tuition and fees from all students matriculating at Princeton last year was a bit over $100 million. That Princeton didn't use a third of its surplus and let everyone attend Princeton for free has to do with restrictions on use of its endowment. Princeton's endowment value increased by $11.1 billion in fiscal 2021. Princeton's appropriates 5.5 percent of the endowment value annually to support the operations of the university. In several years, the appropriation of that $11.1 billion increase in value will yield an additional $610 million in funding for university operation. I understand from a classmate who works for a school located on a square which is the home of the law offices of Dewey, Cheetham & Howe, that universities who find themselves with an abundance of endowment riches that they cannot entirely spend, are looking at ways the restricted endowment can be made more fungible. While I don't have a crystal ball, the day may be near when every athlete playing for Princeton is attending Princeton for free; in effect, this will be similar to going to the academies, but without a five-year obligation afterwards. Princeton's 120 football players will be receiving the equivalent of full scollies, 35 more players on 'scollies' than the NCAA allows for FBS.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 11, 2022 9:44:41 GMT -5
Georgetown's bind is that it is 43:57 M/F, and athletic financial aid in 2019-20 was 48:52 M/F. (Holy Cross is trending toward GU's 43:57 ratio., which could have significant implications, going forward.) Scholarships won't drive Georgetown out of the PL, admissions will. This most recent recruiting class was way below PL standards because of the Index. Of 17 recruits, only three appear on any Rivals or 247 sites. The day is coming where the PL leadership has to either extend Index relief to Georgetown or send them packing for the NEC or as an independent. These next 2-3 years could be brutal.
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Post by HC92 on Feb 11, 2022 10:02:31 GMT -5
Georgetown's bind is that it is 43:57 M/F, and athletic financial aid in 2019-20 was 48:52 M/F. (Holy Cross is trending toward GU's 43:57 ratio., which could have significant implications, going forward.) Scholarships won't drive Georgetown out of the PL, admissions will. This most recent recruiting class was way below PL standards because of the Index. Of 17 recruits, only three appear on any Rivals or 247 sites. The day is coming where the PL leadership has to either extend Index relief to Georgetown or send them packing for the NEC or as an independent. These next 2-3 years could be brutal. I really don’t understand the AI so I’m asking to understand. Why can’t Georgetown recruit like Harvard and Yale? Similar academic prestige and AI limitations but they’re killing it. Is it just that the Ivies are much more generous with need based aid so they effectively have a team full of scholarship players while calling themselves non-scholarship? And Georgetown won’t or can’t spend that kind of money? I felt like Georgetown was starting to figure it out a few years ago but now it’s gone backwards. No idea if that’s true.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 11, 2022 10:28:10 GMT -5
Gtown does not have a substantial endowment and could never compete in an arms race with the Ivies as I see it
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Post by midwestsader05 on Feb 11, 2022 11:11:27 GMT -5
Scholarships won't drive Georgetown out of the PL, admissions will. This most recent recruiting class was way below PL standards because of the Index. Of 17 recruits, only three appear on any Rivals or 247 sites. The day is coming where the PL leadership has to either extend Index relief to Georgetown or send them packing for the NEC or as an independent. These next 2-3 years could be brutal. I really don’t understand the AI so I’m asking to understand. Why can’t Georgetown recruit like Harvard and Yale? Similar academic prestige and AI limitations but they’re killing it. Is it just that the Ivies are much more generous with need based aid so they effectively have a team full of scholarship players while calling themselves non-scholarship? And Georgetown won’t or can’t spend that kind of money? I felt like Georgetown was starting to figure it out a few years ago but now it’s gone backwards. No idea if that’s true. I'm genuinely confused by G'Town as well and hoping DFW can help explain it. Granted it was over 20 years ago but I had an "offer" to both HC and G'Town and the "grant" money was virtually identical between the two (~20% of total room and board at the time). 1) Does G'Town now have a more stringent AI than the rest of the PL? 2) If you aggregate all of the "grant" money that G'Town allocates to football players, what does it equate too? It's clearly not 60 full scholarships but is it at least directional to the PL from 2000-2011? 50-55 total? (See my post about the 2003 Colgate team in the "something is cooking" thread) Thanks!
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 11, 2022 12:22:25 GMT -5
Georgetown's bind is that it is 43:57 M/F, and athletic financial aid in 2019-20 was 48:52 M/F. (Holy Cross is trending toward GU's 43:57 ratio., which could have significant implications, going forward.) Scholarships won't drive Georgetown out of the PL, admissions will. This most recent recruiting class was way below PL standards because of the Index. Of 17 recruits, only three appear on any Rivals or 247 sites. The day is coming where the PL leadership has to either extend Index relief to Georgetown or send them packing for the NEC or as an independent. These next 2-3 years could be brutal. I say extend relief to Georgetown. Whatever makes sense for them to be competitive in the PL makes sense for the rest of the PL. The league is small enough and collegial enough to make individual adjustments to help membership make sense for all. I can't stand these leagues that take away student athletes chances for a championship or auto bid they have earned just so they can punish schools. The PL isn't picking up a higher quality school to replace Georgetown if they are forced to leave. Contrary to current trends, I think conference membership stability is a badge of honor. Even though compiling hypothetical league configurations is fun also.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 11, 2022 12:27:15 GMT -5
Scholarships won't drive Georgetown out of the PL, admissions will. This most recent recruiting class was way below PL standards because of the Index. Of 17 recruits, only three appear on any Rivals or 247 sites. The day is coming where the PL leadership has to either extend Index relief to Georgetown or send them packing for the NEC or as an independent. These next 2-3 years could be brutal. I say extend relief to Georgetown. Whatever makes sense for them to be competitive in the PL makes sense for the rest of the PL. The league is small enough and collegial enough to make individual adjustments to help membership make sense for all. I can't stand these leagues that take away student athletes chances for a championship or auto bid they have earned just so they can punish schools. The PL isn't picking up a higher quality school to replace Georgetown if they are forced to leave. I believe Columbia got some special academic relief from the Ivy League, enabling it to attract some better football players. That might be something for PL to consider as you suggest
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 11, 2022 12:29:20 GMT -5
Columbia was nearing Harold Stassen territory in FB.😊
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 11, 2022 12:47:47 GMT -5
At one point, Columbia was given relief from the AI by the Ivy League so that it could be more competitive in football. IIRC, it didn't help much. With respect to the AI for Georgetown football, the AI floor (minimum score to be recruited and enrolled) is the same for Georgetown, Fordham, and the PL schools that play football. The AI floor for the PL is 168. The IL floor was 171, but is now 176. Where Georgetown gets screwed is the AI provision that requires the AI score of all recruited football players to be within one standard deviation of the school-wide AI of the previous years' freshmen classes. GU easily has the highest school-wide AI of any PL football school, Colgate is next. I think Lehigh is third, and the other four schools follow. The one standard deviation AI score for Georgetown might be 7-10 points higher than say for HC, Bucknell, Lafayette, and Fordham. Because of this, Georgetown can't reach for some football recruits that half the PL football schools can recruit. ^^^ This is a bit oversimplified. The same holds true in the IL, where Cornell and Penn can reach for recruits that HYP can't chase. Georgetown's school-wide AI is probably comparable to Cornell. Colgate is not far behind. www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/6/30/athlete-admissions/
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 11, 2022 13:09:12 GMT -5
Are those 0.076% non-athletes in what is informally called the "Jared Kushner Band" at Harvard?
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Post by midwestsader05 on Feb 11, 2022 13:16:16 GMT -5
At one point, Columbia was given relief from the AI by the Ivy League so that it could be more competitive in football. IIRC, it didn't help much. With respect to the AI for Georgetown football, the AI floor (minimum score to be recruited and enrolled) is the same for Georgetown, Fordham, and the PL schools that play football. The AI floor for the PL is 168. The IL floor was 171, but is now 176. Where Georgetown gets screwed is the AI provision that requires the AI score of all recruited football players to be within one standard deviation of the school-wide AI of the previous years' freshmen classes. GU easily has the highest school-wide AI of any PL football school, Colgate is next. I think Lehigh is third, and the other four schools follow. The one standard deviation AI score for Georgetown might be 7-10 points higher than say for HC, Bucknell, Lafayette, and Fordham. Because of this, Georgetown can't reach for some football recruits that half the PL football schools can recruit. ^^^ This is a bit oversimplified. The same holds true in the IL, where Cornell and Penn can reach for recruits that HYP can't chase. Georgetown's school-wide AI is probably comparable to Cornell. Colgate is not far behind. www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/6/30/athlete-admissions/Great explanation of an overly complex and arbitrary provision PP. That answers my first question and I agree it's ridiculous they can't have the same aggregate AI score as Colgate. I'm still curious as to my 2nd regarding total current "aid/grant" money to GU football players. DFW has made it clear that G'Town doesn't want to move to the PL football standard of 60 full scholarships (even though I suspect that aggregate money number is somewhere in the 50's currently.) I guess this is conceptually similar to the PL 60 max vs FCS 63 and I fully acknowledge that DFW knows way more about the school and football program than any of us, but I tend to think if G'Town got both AI relief AND went to 60 official scholarships, they would not be finishing at best #5 in the PL but consistently finishing in the top half if not competing for some titles. However, I guess I also get the school's perspective that changing the formula doubles the amount of new scholarships and GU athletics priorities/budget doesn't think this is the best use of $$. I guess the question becomes...what's next for GU football? 1) Stay in the PL under this current system where finishing 5th is seen as a good season? 2) The only other FCS conference that would make sense would be the Pioneer League as the NEC is a full athletic grant conference so the same issue comes up there with competing against those types of programs? (although I guess you remove the AI barrier) 3) Drop to D-II or D-III football? 4) Drop the program entirely? My hope would be at minimum they can get AI relief and better compete in the PL. I would much rather keep a great institution like G'Town as an associate football member than lose them and have to go recruit a Marist that would likely join the PL for all sports.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 11, 2022 13:28:27 GMT -5
The solution is very simple. Raise the AI of Freshmen classes in the other PL schools to more closely match Georgetown and the other league. And, concurrently bring in tons of money to advance hopefully what will be a need based scholarship policy similar to other truly elite schools.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Feb 11, 2022 13:48:35 GMT -5
Might be time for the PL to do for Georgetown what the Ivy did for Columbia.
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