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Post by gks on Feb 11, 2022 14:56:25 GMT -5
Georgetown could help themselves if they choose.....
They don't want to.
Every league needs a team in last place. Every team takes their turn in last place.
Time to move on.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Feb 11, 2022 16:01:00 GMT -5
Georgetown could help themselves if they choose..... They don't want to. That's not a statement grounded in the reality that is the Patriot League.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 11, 2022 16:05:46 GMT -5
Last place in PL football, first place in PL academics. That is a good tradeoff. But, it is one that may not ne necessary within the framework of the PL. Honestly, believe Colgate is the role model. Top flight academics & successful athletics. But, at present they are out of our league academically. I sincerely believe HC will in the not too distant future start to draw up to Colgate's level. It is time for HC to return to the academic luster it once had. HC can do both even higher academics & successful athletics. Excelsior.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 11, 2022 16:09:10 GMT -5
At one point, Columbia was given relief from the AI by the Ivy League so that it could be more competitive in football. IIRC, it didn't help much. With respect to the AI for Georgetown football, the AI floor (minimum score to be recruited and enrolled) is the same for Georgetown, Fordham, and the PL schools that play football. The AI floor for the PL is 168. The IL floor was 171, but is now 176. Where Georgetown gets screwed is the AI provision that requires the AI score of all recruited football players to be within one standard deviation of the school-wide AI of the previous years' freshmen classes. GU easily has the highest school-wide AI of any PL football school, Colgate is next. I think Lehigh is third, and the other four schools follow. The one standard deviation AI score for Georgetown might be 7-10 points higher than say for HC, Bucknell, Lafayette, and Fordham. Because of this, Georgetown can't reach for some football recruits that half the PL football schools can recruit. ^^^ This is a bit oversimplified. The same holds true in the IL, where Cornell and Penn can reach for recruits that HYP can't chase. Georgetown's school-wide AI is probably comparable to Cornell. Colgate is not far behind. www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/6/30/athlete-admissions/Great explanation of an overly complex and arbitrary provision PP. That answers my first question and I agree it's ridiculous they can't have the same aggregate AI score as Colgate. I'm still curious as to my 2nd regarding total current "aid/grant" money to GU football players. DFW has made it clear that G'Town doesn't want to move to the PL football standard of 60 full scholarships (even though I suspect that aggregate money number is somewhere in the 50's currently.) I guess this is conceptually similar to the PL 60 max vs FCS 63 and I fully acknowledge that DFW knows way more about the school and football program than any of us, but I tend to think if G'Town got both AI relief AND went to 60 official scholarships, they would not be finishing at best #5 in the PL but consistently finishing in the top half if not competing for some titles. However, I guess I also get the school's perspective that changing the formula doubles the amount of new scholarships and GU athletics priorities/budget doesn't think this is the best use of $$. I guess the question becomes...what's next for GU football? 1) Stay in the PL under this current system where finishing 5th is seen as a good season? 2) The only other FCS conference that would make sense would be the Pioneer League as the NEC is a full athletic grant conference so the same issue comes up there with competing against those types of programs? (although I guess you remove the AI barrier) 3) Drop to D-II or D-III football? 4) Drop the program entirely? My hope would be at minimum they can get AI relief and better compete in the PL. I would much rather keep a great institution like G'Town as an associate football member than lose them and have to go recruit a Marist that would likely join the PL for all sports. It is not as simple as you might think. 1.) Need-based financial aid does not count for Title IX purposes.2) If Georgetown were to convert 40, 50, 60 need-based scollies to merit scollies, then Georgetown is faced with having to add 40, 50, 60 merit scollies for women's sports, or cut x number of existing merit scollies from men's sports (other than football), or a combination of the two. 3.) Georgetown in a COVID year (2019-20) spent nearly $14 million on men's hoops. That level of expenditure distorts their athletic program IMO, and crimps their ability to put more money into a sport like football. Again, IMO, HC would be in a similar boat if it had joined the Big East. GU has more than twice the number of undergraduates than HC. ------------------------------------ Holy Cross has very few merit scollies for men's sports other than football, hoops, and ice hockey. The latter two are at the NCAA cap. Boston University when joining the PL had little wiggle room when it came to men's scollies, so it had to drop wrestling to add lacrosse. Boston University spends twice as much on women's scollies than HC does, and BU women receive $4 million more in scollies than HC awards to its athletes playing men's sports (even with football's 60).. BU is 41:59 when it comes to M/h ratio.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 11, 2022 16:09:51 GMT -5
Georgetown could help themselves if they choose..... They don't want to. That's not a statement grounded in the reality that is the Patriot League. He is not a Holy Cross graduate.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Feb 11, 2022 16:26:13 GMT -5
That's not a statement grounded in the reality that is the Patriot League. He is not a Holy Cross graduate. The elitism in your post is unfortunate.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Feb 11, 2022 17:39:01 GMT -5
Great explanation of an overly complex and arbitrary provision PP. That answers my first question and I agree it's ridiculous they can't have the same aggregate AI score as Colgate. I'm still curious as to my 2nd regarding total current "aid/grant" money to GU football players. DFW has made it clear that G'Town doesn't want to move to the PL football standard of 60 full scholarships (even though I suspect that aggregate money number is somewhere in the 50's currently.) I guess this is conceptually similar to the PL 60 max vs FCS 63 and I fully acknowledge that DFW knows way more about the school and football program than any of us, but I tend to think if G'Town got both AI relief AND went to 60 official scholarships, they would not be finishing at best #5 in the PL but consistently finishing in the top half if not competing for some titles. However, I guess I also get the school's perspective that changing the formula doubles the amount of new scholarships and GU athletics priorities/budget doesn't think this is the best use of $$. I guess the question becomes...what's next for GU football? 1) Stay in the PL under this current system where finishing 5th is seen as a good season? 2) The only other FCS conference that would make sense would be the Pioneer League as the NEC is a full athletic grant conference so the same issue comes up there with competing against those types of programs? (although I guess you remove the AI barrier) 3) Drop to D-II or D-III football? 4) Drop the program entirely? My hope would be at minimum they can get AI relief and better compete in the PL. I would much rather keep a great institution like G'Town as an associate football member than lose them and have to go recruit a Marist that would likely join the PL for all sports. It is not as simple as you might think. 1.) Need-based financial aid does not count for Title IX purposes.2) If Georgetown were to convert 40, 50, 60 need-based scollies to merit scollies, then Georgetown is faced with having to add 40, 50, 60 merit scollies for women's sports, or cut x number of existing merit scollies from men's sports (other than football), or a combination of the two. 3.) Georgetown in a COVID year (2019-20) spent nearly $14 million on men's hoops. That level of expenditure distorts their athletic program IMO, and crimps their ability to put more money into a sport like football. Again, IMO, HC would be in a similar boat if it had joined the Big East. GU has more than twice the number of undergraduates than HC.------------------------------------ Holy Cross has very few merit scollies for men's sports other than football, hoops, and ice hockey. The latter two are at the NCAA cap. Boston University when joining the PL had little wiggle room when it came to men's scollies, so it had to drop wrestling to add lacrosse. Boston University spends twice as much on women's scollies than HC does, and BU women receive $4 million more in scollies than HC awards to its athletes playing men's sports (even with football's 60).. BU is 41:59 when it comes to M/h ratio. Exactly why the Big East ultimately would have been and still is a bad path for HC. Many are lured by the speel of the carnival barker to see and participate in the show, and they spend their money to participate. Meanwhile their financial ratings have plummeted. Sure, it would have been fun to be part of the circus of the Big East at MSG, as well as the glitz and notoriety associated with the publicity. We could have all walked around and puff out our chest, but at what ultimate cost. It would have been a very, very sad day that would have arrived, if HC had dropped football and baseball to participate in the Big East.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 11, 2022 18:08:24 GMT -5
The Big East member schools must calculate that the soft dollars that membership generates is worth the deficit in hard dollars. If not they would all leave if they felt playing in the Big East was the Road to Perdition.
The trick is in defining soft dollars and then placing a hard dollar value on each component like "earned media" (as opposed to paid advertising/marketing). A large dose of subjectivity.
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Post by efg72 on Feb 11, 2022 18:14:01 GMT -5
It is not as simple as you might think. 1.) Need-based financial aid does not count for Title IX purposes.2) If Georgetown were to convert 40, 50, 60 need-based scollies to merit scollies, then Georgetown is faced with having to add 40, 50, 60 merit scollies for women's sports, or cut x number of existing merit scollies from men's sports (other than football), or a combination of the two. 3.) Georgetown in a COVID year (2019-20) spent nearly $14 million on men's hoops. That level of expenditure distorts their athletic program IMO, and crimps their ability to put more money into a sport like football. Again, IMO, HC would be in a similar boat if it had joined the Big East. GU has more than twice the number of undergraduates than HC.------------------------------------ Holy Cross has very few merit scollies for men's sports other than football, hoops, and ice hockey. The latter two are at the NCAA cap. Boston University when joining the PL had little wiggle room when it came to men's scollies, so it had to drop wrestling to add lacrosse. Boston University spends twice as much on women's scollies than HC does, and BU women receive $4 million more in scollies than HC awards to its athletes playing men's sports (even with football's 60).. BU is 41:59 when it comes to M/h ratio. Exactly why the Big East ultimately would have been and still is a bad path for HC. Many are lured by the speel of the carnival barker to see and participate in the show, and they spend their money to participate. Meanwhile their financial ratings have plummeted. Sure, it would have been fun to be part of the circus of the Big East at MSG, as well as the glitz and notoriety associated with the publicity. We could have all walked around and puff out our chest, but at what ultimate cost. It would have been a very, very sad day that would have arrived, if HC had dropped football and baseball to participate in the Big East. My understanding about a recent meeting with Leonsis is the future might be different I was not in attendance, and DFW might know more
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 11, 2022 18:14:53 GMT -5
It is not as simple as you might think. 1.) Need-based financial aid does not count for Title IX purposes.2) If Georgetown were to convert 40, 50, 60 need-based scollies to merit scollies, then Georgetown is faced with having to add 40, 50, 60 merit scollies for women's sports, or cut x number of existing merit scollies from men's sports (other than football), or a combination of the two. 3.) Georgetown in a COVID year (2019-20) spent nearly $14 million on men's hoops. That level of expenditure distorts their athletic program IMO, and crimps their ability to put more money into a sport like football. Again, IMO, HC would be in a similar boat if it had joined the Big East. GU has more than twice the number of undergraduates than HC.------------------------------------ Holy Cross has very few merit scollies for men's sports other than football, hoops, and ice hockey. The latter two are at the NCAA cap. Boston University when joining the PL had little wiggle room when it came to men's scollies, so it had to drop wrestling to add lacrosse. Boston University spends twice as much on women's scollies than HC does, and BU women receive $4 million more in scollies than HC awards to its athletes playing men's sports (even with football's 60).. BU is 41:59 when it comes to M/h ratio. Exactly why the Big East ultimately would have been and still is a bad path for HC. Many are lured by the speel of the carnival barker to see and participate in the show, and they spend their money to participate. Meanwhile their financial ratings have plummeted. Sure, it would have been fun to be part of the circus of the Big East at MSG, as well as the glitz and notoriety associated with the publicity. We could have all walked around and puff out our chest, but at what ultimate cost. It would have been a very, very sad day that would have arrived, if HC had dropped football and baseball to participate in the Big East. On an endowment $ per student basis, -- which is a standard metric for measuring endowment value -- Holy Cross' endowment is about 2.5x that of Georgetown's. The comparatively low value of GU's endowment further limits the scope of any initiatives they may want to pursue. Georgetown reported total revenue from athletics and "alumni events" for the fiscal year ending June 30, 2021 as $5.9 million. This was down from $12.4 million in the fiscal year ending June 30, 2019 (a non-COVID year). While the generated revenue from men's hoops is not broken out separately, it would seem that Georgetown men's basketball is far from paying for itself, and its quite possible that GU's operating loss from men's hoops in recent years is significantly higher than the operating loss for men's hoops on Mt. St. James.
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 11, 2022 19:40:12 GMT -5
I've picked up a theme on the board that BC and Villanova were both less selective than HC before the Big East but are now more selective.
Similarly PC, although still seemingly less selective than HC, has had an increase in selectivity since joining the Big East.
Does that mean the Big East was a net positive for BC, Villanova and PC? Is it likely UConn would win all of those M&W national championships out of the America East, A-10 or CAA conferences that other New England State Universities joined?
If HC is still wringing dividends out of it's 1947 championship, (Banner can not be missed on ESPN+ and the championship is generally mentioned by each new announcing team...who are staring right at the banner😊) how do you value all the recent championships by UConn?
Do deficits tell the whole story of the Big East? How have the other D-1 colleges in Philly who joined other leagues fare compared with Villanova who joined the Big East?
Since Worcester dropped a hundred million or so on Polar Park to attract minor league baseball, would they have given Holy Cross a sweet deal at the DCU Center like they have given the Woo Sox if we had ventured into the entertainment business and negotiated like a business?
I'm very glad HC is in the Patriot League but the Big East is not the Devil either.
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Post by gks on Feb 11, 2022 20:17:34 GMT -5
That's not a statement grounded in the reality that is the Patriot League. He is not a Holy Cross graduate. Please....what a condescending, crappy response. You wonder why many in Worcester can't stand Holy Cross. If Georgetown wanted to up the talent and recruiting on their football team they could it tomorrow. Do we forget when HC just decided to add basketball scholarships back in the 90s? Did they wait for the rest of the Patriot League. Did Fordham football wait for the rest of the league when announcing they were offering football scholarships? If any PL team wanted to scrap the AI they could do it tomorrow. What's the league going to do throw them out? Please.
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Post by saderfan1998 on Feb 11, 2022 20:33:52 GMT -5
That's not a statement grounded in the reality that is the Patriot League. He is not a Holy Cross graduate. Is this a qualification required to make a good point?
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Feb 11, 2022 20:58:24 GMT -5
Not everyone worked for NASA and planned missions to Mars, PP.
Tom Gilmore used to say when he was head coach at HC: “You can always tell a Harvard man, you just can’t tell him much.”
What makes HC such a great school is that there isn’t that elitism. Let’s keep it that way, shall we?
So what gks isn’t a Holy Cross alum? Is he not able to make a good point because of that fact?
Holy Cross is lucky guys like gks still have interest in our school, but it would be very understandable if they got turned off by it due to snide and condescending comments like yours.
Clean it up.
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Post by gks on Feb 11, 2022 21:00:12 GMT -5
He is not a Holy Cross graduate. Is this a qualification required to make a good point? According to some....yes. The rest of us are morons.
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Post by efg72 on Feb 11, 2022 21:02:17 GMT -5
Last place in PL football, first place in PL academics. That is a good tradeoff. But, it is one that may not ne necessary within the framework of the PL. Honestly, believe Colgate is the role model. Top flight academics & successful athletics. But, at present they are out of our league academically. I sincerely believe HC will in the not too distant future start to draw up to Colgate's level. It is time for HC to return to the academic luster it once had. HC can do both even higher academics & successful athletics. Excelsior. Improving athletically is close to being significantly more attractive as an academic institution
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Post by saderfan1998 on Feb 11, 2022 21:06:00 GMT -5
Is this a qualification required to make a good point? According to some....yes. The rest of us are morons. …well count me as a grad who appreciates that fans like you care enough to weigh in!
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 12, 2022 8:14:32 GMT -5
I appreciate the sentiments SoV. But I have little patience with postings that declare that a sister institution should do this or that financially, or it can go pound sand. Case in point: Holy Cross. HC would seem to occupy a similar position with respect to spending on all sports vis-à-vis the rest of the PL, as Georgetown's in football. Footnotes: * Fordham and Georgetown universities are not included. ** Men’s rowing is not a Patriot League sport. *** Loyola is not included because spending is not for a combined track program. **** Men’s ice hockey and women’s ice hockey compete in different conferences, Atlantic Hockey for the men, and Hockey East for the women. Two other Patriot League universities play ice hockey. Boston University spent $5,594,000 on M/W ice hockey; Colgate spent $4,569,000. Boston University is a member of Hockey East. Colgate is a member of ECAC hockey. ***** Of the other football schools besides Holy Cross and Lehigh, Bucknell’s spending on indirect expenses was $4,760,000; Colgate’s $5,175,000, Lafayette’s $4,468,000. ======= The academies were not included, as there is no recent data. If they were, their equivalent spending on a sport would be more than HC's (Suffice to say I did not prepare this table for my personal edification. This was for a larger audience.)
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Post by bfoley82 on Feb 12, 2022 8:17:37 GMT -5
Might be time for the PL to do for Georgetown what the Ivy did for Columbia. Columbia did have a good football season in 2021 shutting out Ivy League champ Dartmouth in Hanover while being competitive.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 12, 2022 8:21:28 GMT -5
Might be time for the PL to do for Georgetown what the Ivy did for Columbia. Columbia did have a good football season in 2021 shutting out Ivy League champ Dartmouth in Hanover while being competitive. Irrelevant. Columbia's relief from the AI was decades ago. The relief was temporary, and Columbia is presently subject to the same AI provisions as the other seven IL schools..
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Post by bfoley82 on Feb 12, 2022 8:38:42 GMT -5
Columbia did have a good football season in 2021 shutting out Ivy League champ Dartmouth in Hanover while being competitive. Irrelevant. Columbia's relief from the AI was decades ago. The relief was temporary, and Columbia is presently subject to the same AI provisions as the other seven IL schools.. That relief might not have helped them but shows they didn't need it anymore with what they have built now. They have multiple FBS transfers heading out this year. Virginia and Rice among others are getting some of their seniors.
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Post by HC92 on Feb 12, 2022 8:43:05 GMT -5
GIven that this is an HC football forum, let’s try to connect the dots here:
HC Football > Columbia Football > UNH Football
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Post by timholycross on Feb 12, 2022 9:41:54 GMT -5
Never did understand the idea of several fine institutions of similar philosophies and standards getting together to form an athletic conference then instituting some AI-like criteria. Every school should have its own individual framework for what constitutes "athletes being representative of the student body".
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 12, 2022 10:07:10 GMT -5
Never did understand the idea of several fine institutions of similar philosophies and standards getting together to form an athletic conference then instituting some AI-like criteria. Every school should have its own individual framework for what constitutes "athletes being representative of the student body". "Trust but Verify" -The non HC Ronnie I can't remember ever hearing about who verifies that each school is in compliance with the AI, or any mention of any school being out of compliance, or what the consequences are for non-compliance. Is it just an honor system?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 13, 2022 8:07:09 GMT -5
Never did understand the idea of several fine institutions of similar philosophies and standards getting together to form an athletic conference then instituting some AI-like criteria. Every school should have its own individual framework for what constitutes "athletes being representative of the student body". "Trust but Verify" -The non HC Ronnie I can't remember ever hearing about who verifies that each school is in compliance with the AI, or any mention of any school being out of compliance, or what the consequences are for non-compliance. Is it just an honor system? I believe it is somewhat of an honor system, but every school has access to the test scores and grades of every recruited athlete through the NCAA clearinghouse. I have never heard of a school trying to 'cheat' under the AI. That does not mean that schools do not manipulate the AI. Indeed they do. Pre-Amaker, Harvard told the then-coach, Frank Sullivan, that all his recruits, without exception, must have AI scores within one standard deviation of the school-wide AI score. (The within one standard deviation average AI score for all recruited athletes for all sports is a standard AI metric.) With Amaker, Harvard gave relief, allowing him to recruit players with AI scores that were 1.5 -2 standard deviations below. Harvard admissions and the athletic department then found offsets using higher AI scores of recruited athletes in other sports, e.g., women's fencing. Amaker was supposedly given recruiting lower AI score slots previously set-aside for other sports, some said from men's ice hockey. In later years, Amaker was known to recruit kids with Div III basketball talent but high AI scores to offset his more prized recruits with lower AI scores within his own program. He became self-sufficient. Georgetown and Fordham apparently don't have that luxury of manipulating the AI like Harvard and Amaker. Georgetown can't 'borrow' the high AI score of a women's lacrosse player to offset a football recruit with an A.I that is two standard deviations below the school-wide AI for Georgetown. Without an AI, the IL and the PL believe, fear, or expect there will be a race to the bottom. BostU, as a condition of being admitted to the PL, agreed that no students enrolled in BostU's Metropolitan College could play a varsity sport. The University of Florida, 8-10 years ago in a revenue and expense report, listed a $1.5-2 million cost for tutoring varsity athletes. Presumably these tutors are mostly graduate students receiving a stipend for doing this. If one assumes the individual stipend was $20,000, and then divide $20,000 into $2 million, and it was one-on-one tutoring, that's how many football and basketball players were being tutored. UNC, a flagship university no less, went one better: www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/10/16/breaking-ncaa-finds-no-academic-fraud-unc#:~:text=The%20University%20of%20North%20Carolina,the%20National%20Collegiate%20Athletic%20Association. The obituary for Mary Fenlon, key to GU's hoops success under John Thompson (the pere). guhoyas.com/news/2019/12/16/mens-basketball-georgetown-community-mourns-the-passing-of-mary-fenlon.aspx_________________ With respect to my table on costs per sport, HC compared to the PL: If I had included Fordham, HC would have ranked #6 of 6 for football. To also include Georgetown, one would have had to make assumptions about how much need-based aid was awarded to the football players. This board has had discussions in the past that HYP, for example, are very likely awarding so much need-based aid that the scollie equivalents exceed the NCAA cap for FCS which is 63, and may approach the NCAA cap for FBS (85). This is legal. In the first several years of the PL transitioning from need-based aid for football to merit-aid (60 scollies) there was a curious phenomenon. Expenses for Fordham and Colgate football dropped significantly, Fordham more than Colgate, IIRC. One explanation for the drop was that Fordham had the equivalent of 65 or so scollies on its roster, all of whom were receiving need-based aid. There is no way of telling from the revenue and expense reports how many scollie-equivalents GU currently has on its roster of players who are receiving need-based aid. It might be 40, 50, 60, or 70. HC and other PL schools were reporting need-based aid as financial aid on the revenue and expense reports because there were no adverse Title IX implications. Georgetown has and continues to report $0 for financial aid for football. There are Title IX implications for GU. __________________ Standard deviations and the Academic Index. If a recruit's AI score is one standard deviation (normal distribution) below the school-wide average, roughly 85 percent of the class will have an AI score higher than him/her. If a recruit's AI score is two standard deviations below, roughly 98 percent of the class will have a higher score. If a recruit has an AI score that is three standard deviations, 99.9 percent of the class will have a higher score. In the Ivies, a sensational recruit with an AI score between 2.5 standard deviations and 3 standard deviations can be admitted, provided his/her AI score is 176 or higher, 176 being the AI floor.
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