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Post by hceconhist on Apr 9, 2022 19:27:03 GMT -5
Roof is indeed the problem. It is more than the seating. It is the sub optimal look of the place, the bench HS style seating, the HS scoreboards fit snugly on a wall - higher roof, more space, more room for some college level arena style seat back chairs, a more attractive airy space for upper level seating, a center court scoreboard, a more attractive roomy entry with increased seating . Also, what the heck is it with the ugly brown amoeba on the center court floor? Attendance at the games would have been a lot more attractive event. And. it would not have hurt recruiting. Ultimately the gym is a result of poor planning, a lack of vision. Obviously one could point to other crappy basketball gyms with successful teams - St. Peter's, Harvard and others. But, basketball is HC's traditional marquee sports. The school deserved better. You say this and then on the other hand say the PL is where HC should be? Who is the PL has a better basketball arena? Without question, Bucknell and Navy. Army and Lafayette probably too, but they are more debatable.
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Post by bison137 on Apr 9, 2022 19:28:49 GMT -5
You say this and then on the other hand say the PL is where HC should be? Who is the PL has a better basketball arena? Without question, Bucknell and Navy. Army and Lafayette probably too, but they are more debatable. I doubt you could find many neutral fans who wouldn’t pick Army or Lafayette. I’ve asked a lot of PL fans over the years and haven’t found any.
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Post by hceconhist on Apr 9, 2022 19:34:01 GMT -5
Without question, Bucknell and Navy. Army and Lafayette probably too, but they are more debatable. I doubt you could find many neutral fans who wouldn’t pick Army or Lafayette. I’ve asked a lot of PL fans over the years and haven’t found any. I really don't disagree, but my point was that if you wore strong purple glasses, you could make an argument. In my day, about a decade ago, I would've argued that the Hart arena is better but that was more than offset by Kirby's much better general facilities. With the renovations at Kirby, I think that its beats the Hart on both fronts now.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Apr 9, 2022 19:37:45 GMT -5
Can you objectively describe Kirby’s recent renovations and how they surpass The Luth.
For those facilities I have not seen recently I often compare facilities based on their pictures on their facilities page link.
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Post by hceconhist on Apr 9, 2022 20:38:04 GMT -5
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Apr 9, 2022 21:01:15 GMT -5
I'd rather go 23-9 in a barn than 11-21 in a palace
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Post by Crucis#1 on Apr 9, 2022 21:35:37 GMT -5
I have seen the pictures multiple times before your post, as well as viewing countless Lafayette games on streaming media.
I still do not see how it is functional more appealing than Hart or the Luth as an integrated complex.
Kirby, like Bender is still row upon row of pull out bleachers, the same as Hart. The weight room is 3,000 square feet smaller than than Smith Performance Center, and lacks of such facilities as a practice gym next to the arena, and a basketball film room. Now that hopefully next season will be open all season for in person game attendance, I will have to take a trip to view in-person and do an objective point by point comparisons.
At least at Hart, there is a 360 degree concourse with conference and meeting rooms adjacent with elevator access.
Since the Hart was built nearly 50 years ago, athletic facilities have dramatically improved as evidenced by Sojka, that was designed in the 21sr century.
Due to as previously noted, renovations to Hart, was restricted due to a design footprint from 1970’ architectural processes before ADA.
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Post by lou on Apr 9, 2022 21:53:50 GMT -5
How well does the Lehigh gym compare to the Hart? Hart is better. But I also think the Hart is a lot better than the Lafayette gym
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Post by Majestic Mapp on Apr 9, 2022 22:32:04 GMT -5
Roof is indeed the problem. It is more than the seating. It is the sub optimal look of the place, the bench HS style seating, the HS scoreboards fit snugly on a wall - higher roof, more space, more room for some college level arena style seat back chairs, a more attractive airy space for upper level seating, a center court scoreboard, a more attractive roomy entry with increased seating . Also, what the heck is it with the ugly brown amoeba on the center court floor? Attendance at the games would have been a lot more attractive event. And. it would not have hurt recruiting. Ultimately the gym is a result of poor planning, a lack of vision. Obviously one could point to other crappy basketball gyms with successful teams - St. Peter's, Harvard and others. But, basketball is HC's traditional marquee sports. The school deserved better. You say this and then on the other hand say the PL is where HC should be? Who is the PL has a better basketball arena? I'd add BU, but of course it's not being used for obvious reasons. It is available though.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 9, 2022 22:50:47 GMT -5
You say this and then on the other hand say the PL is where HC should be? Who is the PL has a better basketball arena? I'd add BU, but of course it's not being used for obvious reasons. It is available though. Is that Ted Knight in the BU sweatshirt? Loved him.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Apr 10, 2022 0:02:03 GMT -5
I'd add BU, but of course it's not being used for obvious reasons. It is available though. Is that Ted Knight in the BU sweatshirt? Loved him. He was on a sitcom--after the MTM Show--where he wore college apparel frequently. I don't know if HC was ever featured.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Apr 10, 2022 4:07:04 GMT -5
Without question, Bucknell and Navy. Army and Lafayette probably too, but they are more debatable. I doubt you could find many neutral fans who wouldn’t pick Army or Lafayette. I’ve asked a lot of PL fans over the years and haven’t found any. Gee, if we could only find some neutral observers.....
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Post by mm67 on Apr 10, 2022 5:07:12 GMT -5
How well does the Lehigh gym compare to the Hart?
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Apr 10, 2022 5:14:47 GMT -5
It has more chairback seats so it has to be better. It also has more seats. But the seats in general are further away from the court, it's cold and dank feeling imo, and with the other athletic facilities is isolated from the main campus. But I'm biased.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Apr 10, 2022 6:17:42 GMT -5
To Stabler's credit, though, I found the playing court to be very, very comfortable for a PL championship post game celebration.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 10, 2022 9:58:55 GMT -5
It has more chairback seats so it has to be better. It also has more seats. But the seats in general are further away from the court, it's cold and dank feeling imo, and with the other athletic facilities is isolated from the main campus. But I'm biased. They put their indoor running track between the court and the stands?🙂
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Post by mm67 on Apr 10, 2022 10:16:42 GMT -5
Stabler does not sound inviting for spectators. On the other hand, Hart is cozy & comfy. (for stuents who are the target attendees. But for some of us older guys, meh!) Peace.
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Post by Majestic Mapp on Apr 10, 2022 11:04:12 GMT -5
I'd add BU, but of course it's not being used for obvious reasons. It is available though. Is that Ted Knight in the BU sweatshirt? Loved him. Yes, sir. From the TV show Too Close for Comfort and as noted already he wore sweatshirts at random colleges on the show. Here are photos with him wearing sweatshirts from other colleges including Lafayette and Colgate.
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Post by timholycross on Apr 10, 2022 18:00:58 GMT -5
I like Kirby. Capacity was 3,500; now it's 2,400-something.
Chairs on sidelines, benches on end lines.
Could have been done at the Hart Center; but they chose to do other things instead.
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Post by crusader1970 on Apr 10, 2022 20:22:39 GMT -5
Have any of you been in the St Peter’s gym? The Hart Center is far superior.
Take a look at the St Mary’s (Calif) gym. It is incredibly similar to Hart.
Gentlemen, our basketball facility is NOT the problem.
We have a horrible coach who has put together a very flawed group of players, many of whom have chosen to leave HC rather than subject themselves to his incompetence for the rest of their college careers.
THAT is our problem. Pure and simple.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Apr 10, 2022 21:03:19 GMT -5
I visited the former McKeon Pavillion on a cloudy day, at St. Mary's in Moraga on the Monday after Thanksgiving in 2005. The only similarity to Hart was the vintage of construction. At the time, it was a single purpose building, without base line seating under the basket. I found the building bare bones without apparent additional facilities beyond the basketball court.
Having in person visits to over 250 College and Universities in the US and Canada, over a period of 40 years, and having reviewed the athletic facilities of at least an equal number of schools, I have only found one of two of similar vintage, that also have a similar layout to Hart, seating layout including a 360 concourse at mid-level.
I agree that the current renovation to the Hart is not the problem. I remember standing by the door into the Arena before the Canisius game on 12/14/2019. While watching the Canisius team coming out of their locker room, I overheard several players saying they liked the Christmas athletic video playing on the video screens, and also liked the HC facility. This is a first hand, unfiltered account as I witnessed the conversation between players.
There are many issues with our group this past year. Many of the players should have a one on one session with Steph Curry to correct their shooting issues as well as learning a mid range shoot. GG seems to understand the value of the mid range.
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Post by hceconhist on Apr 10, 2022 22:11:39 GMT -5
I have seen the pictures multiple times before your post, as well as viewing countless Lafayette games on streaming media. I still do not see how it is functional more appealing than Hart or the Luth as an integrated complex. Kirby, like Bender is still row upon row of pull out bleachers, the same as Hart. The weight room is 3,000 square feet smaller than than Smith Performance Center, and lacks of such facilities as a practice gym next to the arena, and a basketball film room. Now that hopefully next season will be open all season for in person game attendance, I will have to take a trip to view in-person and do an objective point by point comparisons. At least at Hart, there is a 360 degree concourse with conference and meeting rooms adjacent with elevator access. Since the Hart was built nearly 50 years ago, athletic facilities have dramatically improved as evidenced by Sojka, that was designed in the 21sr century. Due to as previously noted, renovations to Hart, was restricted due to a design footprint from 1970’ architectural processes before ADA. This is getting pretty subjective, but the entire lower row at the Hart is bleachers as opposed to the chair-back sections at Kirby, in addition to the jumbotron. I also don't understand the relevance of when the Hart was first built. It may limit the renovations available, but that does not negate the limitations of the facilities compared to some PL peers which is the whole point of the post. More broadly, I don't think the facilities are the hinderance in recruiting that they absolutely were before. I think they range from top third to top half of the PL while I would lean towards top half.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Apr 10, 2022 23:32:23 GMT -5
I have seen the pictures multiple times before your post, as well as viewing countless Lafayette games on streaming media. I still do not see how it is functional more appealing than Hart or the Luth as an integrated complex. Kirby, like Bender is still row upon row of pull out bleachers, the same as Hart. The weight room is 3,000 square feet smaller than than Smith Performance Center, and lacks of such facilities as a practice gym next to the arena, and a basketball film room. Now that hopefully next season will be open all season for in person game attendance, I will have to take a trip to view in-person and do an objective point by point comparisons. At least at Hart, there is a 360 degree concourse with conference and meeting rooms adjacent with elevator access. Since the Hart was built nearly 50 years ago, athletic facilities have dramatically improved as evidenced by Sojka, that was designed in the 21sr century. Due to as previously noted, renovations to Hart, was restricted due to a design footprint from 1970’ architectural processes before ADA. This is getting pretty subjective, but the entire lower row at the Hart is bleachers as opposed to the chair-back sections at Kirby, in addition to the jumbotron. I also don't understand the relevance of when the Hart was first built. It may limit the renovations available, but that does not negate the limitations of the facilities compared to some PL peers which is the whole point of the post. More broadly, I don't think the facilities are the hinderance in recruiting that they absolutely were before. I think they range from top third to top half of the PL while I would lean towards top half. I agree regarding subjectivity, but we have all heard "That beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Regarding... "I also don't understand the relevance of when the Hart was first built. It may limit the renovations available, but that does not negate the limitations of the facilities compared to some PL peers which is the whole point of the post."The relevance lies in the design process in play in 1973-1974, 20th Century before ADA compliance, versus the current standards, ADA Codes and Aesthetic appeal for design in the 21st Century. Sojka built in 2003, is currently the design, Bowl Surround, that is most appealing visually for fans at a mid-major facility. Of note, Bucknell played their home games for almost 30 years after Hart was completed in the Old Davis Gym, current home of their Volleyball team. Bucknell had the good fortune that Ken Langone, one of the founders of Home Depot, was a major contributor in the building of the Ken Langone Athletics and Recreation Center. The Hart Center, opened in 1975, with limited external financing beyond the Holy Cross Corporation, suffers many of the building codes in place from the early 1970's. For example, number of bathrooms, elevator access throughout the different levels, seat width, etc. Many of these issues were corrected with the 2018 renovations, however the basic footprint still remains in place due to costs as well as the turnaround time to have the renovations completed without interrupting the venue beyond the next basketball season. Short of completely bringing down two or maybe three of the original walls and the roof, we have a building that we will have to live with for the next 25 plus years. Scope, Time and Budget, are the Iron Triangle in Project Management Construction. bucknellbison.com/facilities/sojka-pavilion/4bucknellbison.com/facilities/kenneth-langone-athletics-recreation-center/18Regarding the appeal of an overhead scoreboard vs a video board located lower in the arena. For most venues, the Overhead Scoreboard is of necessity, as there is no space available for a large video display. Video ribbons are used to make up for this issue to provide information that often is missed during game action on an overhead board. My preference is for a wall display as my neck hurts at the end of games with an overhead board with the constant motion between the court and the overhead video. Thumbs up for venues with a lower video display with accompanying ribbon displays.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Apr 10, 2022 23:42:42 GMT -5
My solution to lack of chair backs in the lower portion of the Hart, bring a seat cushion with an adjustable back for support. Have used one for over 20 years. 😊
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Post by hceconhist on Apr 11, 2022 18:10:59 GMT -5
This is getting pretty subjective, but the entire lower row at the Hart is bleachers as opposed to the chair-back sections at Kirby, in addition to the jumbotron. I also don't understand the relevance of when the Hart was first built. It may limit the renovations available, but that does not negate the limitations of the facilities compared to some PL peers which is the whole point of the post. More broadly, I don't think the facilities are the hinderance in recruiting that they absolutely were before. I think they range from top third to top half of the PL while I would lean towards top half. I agree regarding subjectivity, but we have all heard "That beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Regarding... "I also don't understand the relevance of when the Hart was first built. It may limit the renovations available, but that does not negate the limitations of the facilities compared to some PL peers which is the whole point of the post."The relevance lies in the design process in play in 1973-1974, 20th Century before ADA compliance, versus the current standards, ADA Codes and Aesthetic appeal for design in the 21st Century. Sojka built in 2003, is currently the design, Bowl Surround, that is most appealing visually for fans at a mid-major facility. Of note, Bucknell played their home games for almost 30 years after Hart was completed in the Old Davis Gym, current home of their Volleyball team. Bucknell had the good fortune that Ken Langone, one of the founders of Home Depot, was a major contributor in the building of the Ken Langone Athletics and Recreation Center. The Hart Center, opened in 1975, with limited external financing beyond the Holy Cross Corporation, suffers many of the building codes in place from the early 1970's. For example, number of bathrooms, elevator access throughout the different levels, seat width, etc. Many of these issues were corrected with the 2018 renovations, however the basic footprint still remains in place due to costs as well as the turnaround time to have the renovations completed without interrupting the venue beyond the next basketball season. Short of completely bringing down two or maybe three of the original walls and the roof, we have a building that we will have to live with for the next 25 plus years. Scope, Time and Budget, are the Iron Triangle in Project Management Construction. bucknellbison.com/facilities/sojka-pavilion/4bucknellbison.com/facilities/kenneth-langone-athletics-recreation-center/18Regarding the appeal of an overhead scoreboard vs a video board located lower in the arena. For most venues, the Overhead Scoreboard is of necessity, as there is no space available for a large video display. Video ribbons are used to make up for this issue to provide information that often is missed during game action on an overhead board. My preference is for a wall display as my neck hurts at the end of games with an overhead board with the constant motion between the court and the overhead video. Thumbs up for venues with a lower video display with accompanying ribbon displays. I know the history, including the context behind both the Hart and Sojka, but that does not change the underlying reality. While the facilities are unquestionably better than they were before, they remain at best Tier 1B within the PL. Not that HC can't compete with the facilities it has.
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