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Post by timholycross on Dec 7, 2016 21:47:03 GMT -5
After we got our ass kicked in 86, I for one wouldn't have been too confident in putting another undefeated season on the line vs the Eagles...although IIRC 1987 was the beginning of the end for Jack Bicknell...they had 3 or 4 down years before he got canned. So maybe HC would have beaten them.
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Post by hc87 on Dec 7, 2016 22:48:31 GMT -5
Sadly, HC chose not to participate for all of the years when we were really good and would have had a realistic shot at winning it all. We would have been the favorite in at least 86 and 87, from what I've read/heard. Probably why ihoop hates the playoffs so much -- while a student/recent grad, he was denied the opportunity to see us run that tournament like NDSU does now. Though I'm sure he and many others in his class would have rather seen HC toss the '87 playoffs, had they been eligible, for ONE more crack at BC. Absolutely....sadly, it's not a choice we have anymore...but a season ending game against BC trumps the FCS playoffs every single time. I actually think a season ending game against Fordham at Yankee Stadium or Fenway trumps the FCS playoffs.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 8, 2016 7:52:27 GMT -5
I respectfully disagree. Those of us of a certain age saw the last game of the season against BC every year. And you are probably not old enough to realize that the HC-BC game was once touted as the biggest football rivalry in the country after the Army-Navy game. You saw Holy Cross-BC when we were dominant at a lower level I-AA playing against a I-A BC. In the "olden days," we were not only equal but actually had an edge in the series. As great as that was, those games would have been "trumped" had we then went on to play a bowl game, or in our case now, get into the playoffs.
Having been to the much touted Ram-Crusader Cup game at Yankee Stadium and the HC-Villanova game in the playoffs with Dom, I much preferred the latter. You are obviously excited about the venue, I am more excited about the actual game. Playing Fordham is fine as a last game but it will never be BC.
Just my two cents.
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Post by hc87 on Dec 8, 2016 12:37:56 GMT -5
I may have graduated in '87 but i went to HC games in the late 60s/early 70's...my Dad went to HC/BC games from the 1930s on...I'm well aware of the level of the rivalry ovah the years.
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Post by joe on Dec 8, 2016 12:50:26 GMT -5
Playing BC for the final game is probably a non-starter, however not totally crazy now that we count toward bowl-eligibility. It might not be the worst thing in the world for BC to have an "easy" game a the end of the year. How much of a rivalry you can have with a team that blows you out, on the other hand, is questionable.
Want to make HC vs BC a "thing" again? Make it the first game for both teams every year and play it at its traditional venue - Fenway - and have some cool ancillary events and some fun shared student and alumni activities for both schools. Warm weather, sun, early season hopefulness, student craziness - it can't lose. The atmosphere and tradition created would hopefully transcend whatever lopsidedness might exist on the field (hopefully none, but you know . . .).
Want another good idea - for the last game of the year have the PL play an IL opponent based on final record. 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2, and have the 1 vs 1 be a actual "Named Bowl" game. Last place in the Ivy goes home, sorry. FCS playoffs would follow if we make it. Unfortunately I'm also more ambivalent than I care to admit about the FCS playoffs, but understand that participation is appropriate. I'd get pretty excited about squaring off against Harvard or Yale in a November bowl game (a bowl game in the Northeast? Yes.), even (and especially) especially if it's a grudge rematch from earlier in the year.
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Post by cmo on Dec 8, 2016 12:59:45 GMT -5
i like the idea of the end of season ivy vs PL challenge.
HC-BC to open at Fenway would be tough with the Sox.
Let's make Fitton capable of hosting the 100th meeting between HC and BC.
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Post by timholycross on Dec 8, 2016 13:39:48 GMT -5
Playing BC for the final game is probably a non-starter, however not totally crazy now that we count toward bowl-eligibility. It might not be the worst thing in the world for BC to have an "easy" game a the end of the year. How much of a rivalry you can have with a team that blows you out, on the other hand, is questionable. Want to make HC vs BC a "thing" again? Make it the first game for both teams every year and play it at its traditional venue - Fenway - and have some cool ancillary events and some fun shared student and alumni activities for both schools. Warm weather, sun, early season hopefulness, student craziness - it can't lose. The atmosphere and tradition created would hopefully transcend whatever lopsidedness might exist on the field (hopefully none, but you know . . .). Want another good idea - for the last game of the year have the PL play an IL opponent based on final record. 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2, and have the 1 vs 1 be a actual "Named Bowl" game. Last place in the Ivy goes home, sorry. FCS playoffs would follow if we make it. Unfortunately I'm also more ambivalent than I care to admit about the FCS playoffs, but understand that participation is appropriate. I'd get pretty excited about squaring off against Harvard or Yale in a November bowl game (a bowl game in the Northeast? Yes.), even (and especially) especially if it's a grudge rematch from earlier in the year. Fenway will not be converted into a football field until November 1 in a given year. Oct 1 maybe, but then you have to have a fallback in case of postseason play. The Red Sox have their faults, but they're not a bush league outfit like the Athletics that would let their playing field get trampled by a football game. No way. Alumni (more $ for each school) or Gillette, for better or worse.
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Post by joe on Dec 8, 2016 14:10:44 GMT -5
Fenway. One game. Warm weather or not at all. Field will be just fine. They know how to manage this.
If not BC comes to Fitton again and we accommodate the crowd which, based on BC's other FCS games, plus additional fans interested in this particular game, should be I would guess around 25-30 k. Maybe we need a few bleachers. We did it for years. Who says an FBS team can't come to an FCS school when the FCS school can probably accompdate 30,000 fans?
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Post by sarasota on Dec 8, 2016 14:15:35 GMT -5
Love the notion of a PL/IL playoff. Forget the FCS playoffs.
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Post by gks on Dec 8, 2016 14:16:53 GMT -5
I'd love to see BC changing in tents by the visitor's locker room!
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Post by joe on Dec 8, 2016 14:34:06 GMT -5
I'd love to see BC changing in tents by the visitor's locker room! I want to see the crowds like we saw in the recent clips on ESPN. It wouldn't kill BC to play in front of a packed house, no matter where. Zero reason why there can't be a PL vs IL bowl with no impact on FCS playoffs.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 8, 2016 15:15:47 GMT -5
Uh, yes there is. To have the IL play the PL post season might be perceived as equals and the IL would not accept that at all. It is hard enough that they have to play PL teams in the regular season but we are the second best academic league in college athletics . . . . a very distant second from the Ivy view of the world.
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Post by joe on Dec 8, 2016 15:32:25 GMT -5
Uh, yes there is. To have the IL play the PL post season might be perceived as equals and the IL would not accept that at all. It is hard enough that they have to play PL teams in the regular season but we are the second best academic league in college athletics . . . . a very distant second from the Ivy view of the world. Do you really think the IL gives that much thought to such things? I don't think so. The IL and PL depend on one another to have 11 game schedules, and are as evenly matched as possible as conferences, both in terms of academics and athletics. According to what I've read and heard, several IL higher-ups (specifically at Yale as I recall) have previously been in favor of such a concept. Find me someone with the passion to make this happen and there is no doubt it would be an incredible tradition and beneficial for all schools in these conferences for a multitude of reasons. By the way, the main sticking point is probably how to handle all these insane 2 or 3 way ties that seem to happen in the IL.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 9, 2016 0:04:51 GMT -5
Problem with the Ivy-PL challenge to end the year is that there are going to be a lot of rematches simply due to how many already-scheduled games between the two leagues throughout the fall. I don't mean to crap on the idea though as it it's actually something that the big FBS schools should copy-cat -- a BRACKET-BUSTER of sorts that would give the playoff committee another solid data point. Certainly would be better than watching the zillionth edition of P5 versus FXU.
With regards to a PL-IL Bowl Game, the idea has grown on me lately but why should we drop our pants for the Ivies when they've left us at the alter with this idea for thirty years?
Another thing people don't think of:
If the Ivies ever came into the playoff fold, our two conferences would indeed very often square off against each other in the first round, making this game effectively a "PL-Ivy Bowl Game" with FCS playoff advancement as a reward for winning. Talk about having our cake and eating it too!
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Post by hc87 on Dec 9, 2016 0:16:10 GMT -5
The Ivies are nevah going to play in the FCS play-offs....nor should they.
The FCS-level has basically devolved into the de-facto Division 2 football play-offs as we knew them in the 1980s....there's nothing wrong with that, but they aren't worthy of having a program to go through the ridiculousness of the FCS playoffs imo ...play Fordham at the end of the year in late November and call it a season
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Post by sarasota on Dec 9, 2016 0:52:30 GMT -5
I don't favor a PL/IL playoff, just a bowl.
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Post by unhfan on Dec 9, 2016 2:50:34 GMT -5
I don't understand the dislike of the playoffs by some on this board. It's a chance for the Cross to win a National Title. Why would that not be enough for you? I do understand the little brother big brother jealously with the Ivies but don't players want a chance to be National Champs?
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Post by sarasota on Dec 9, 2016 5:10:25 GMT -5
Even if HC were to get into the FCS playoffs, the chance of going all the way will be remote. So why subject their bodies to those extra weeks of punishment and time away from classes. Also, even in the wider sports world, no one will care.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 9, 2016 6:30:31 GMT -5
OK, after sleeping on this, I am all for a PL-IL championship game as long as it is called the Bok-Brooks Bowl game (henceforth to simply be called the catchy name: "3B Bowl") and alternate between Fitton Field and Harvard Stadium to honor those great gentlemen. Sold to the IL as the college equivalent of when the NFL lowered itself to play the AFL.
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Post by joe on Dec 9, 2016 6:58:08 GMT -5
Don't see it as an either/or. We need to compete in the FCS playoffs from a recruiting standpoint but a bowl game built in to PL and IL schedules on week 12 of an 11 game season, before the FCS playoffs, creates a more realistic opportunity for achievement and publicity for the program beyond what it would get by simply winning the league. As 'Sota points out it's great to have the chance to win a title but as long as there are de facto BCS teams playing FCS football the chances remain remote. Like once or twice in a lifetime remote.
Who cares if it's a re-match? All the better. Who cares about injuries before the FCS? It's a bowl!
For the record, IL isn't participating in the FCS playoffs anytime soon and even if we were to re-match in the first round it's not the same as a formal bowl game.
There could be lots of great names for such a bowl but please no sponsor names. Keep it old school and honor academics in some way.
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Post by gks on Dec 9, 2016 8:29:38 GMT -5
Would you suggest the same for basketball? Ivy/PL end of season games. Football and hockey....only sports you could realistically compete nationally in the level you play in. A long playoff run would do wonders for athletic program. I agree the playoffs are way too long and too many teams. League champs only. Make the regular season really mean something.
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Post by joe on Dec 9, 2016 8:37:35 GMT -5
Hadn't considered other sports. But I see no reason why we should not strengthen our relationship with a conference equally committed to the "student-athlete" while still striving to do the best we can under a scholarship model. We still compete against the IL for athletes and the closer we're aligned philosophically the less likely we'd be to lose kids on the basis of the coveted Ivy degree. What HC needs to do is be honest about who it is and keep both it's "enemies" and "friends" close, especially those who share a common mission.
A long playoff run would be great for HC but I simply don't think we can keep waiting, year after year, for this to happen. "Sitting around waiting for life to begin while it's all just slipping away," to paraphrase Springsteen.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 9, 2016 17:09:21 GMT -5
joe, your idea is growing on me (more the idea of a bowl game between champs than the "Week 12 challenge" at our level) but I'm not ready to sell out to the Ivies just yet.
This year's game would've been a rematch between Lehigh and Princeton. Would there have been that much demand to see that? At a neutral site no less?
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Post by sarasota on Dec 9, 2016 17:12:29 GMT -5
Interest in the bowl game would grow. It would need to be promoted, marketed.
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Post by joe on Dec 9, 2016 18:08:35 GMT -5
Perhaps unique in that it would be at the higher ranked teams school rather than at a neutral site. I would envision reduced interest in an IL vs PL Bowl game being called The Applebee's Bowl and played in Orlando if you know what I mean. I imagine this would be a bowl game as unique as the schools playing in it. Keep it in the northeast, cold weather, home field advantage - as traditional, pure, and old school as the student athletes competing. Mud would always be nice. Anything else misses the point. If a neutral site is required, Fenway or nothing. Nothing larger. No NFL stadiums.
I can see the shoot out idea being a stretch. My thought behind that is just that it would avoid a wasted week for the other teams, and would just be an out of conference game at the end of the year rather than the beginning. I felt this would allow us to then go to the FCS without conflict.
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