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Post by DFW HOYA on Apr 12, 2023 12:13:16 GMT -5
Stonehill and Wagner: 45 scholarships, 15 attending physicians. Although Merrimack has made 45 scholarships sing. Perhaps because their coach was used to artfully spreading even fewer schollies across the whole roster in D-2. Maybe HC benefits from the same concept with Coach Chesney compared to our PL brethren who are used to having 60 and maybe don't wring the same value out of each dollar of scholarship as HC does. Who has a bigger upside right now, Stonehill or Georgetown? Or for that, matter, Stonehill or Bucknell?
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Post by gks on Apr 12, 2023 13:31:42 GMT -5
Ivy football is much bettah today than it was in the 90s and 00s....many of them have put a lot more $$$ in recently for financial aid, to the point where they are basically an all-full scholarship rostah. Is every Ivy a strong program? No, but the top 2 or 3 teams every year usually from that cohort of HYPD, are among the Top 25 FCS programs . I agree though, the bias against them nationally is a bit of an anchor for HC football. They need to prove it. And they won't. So HC has to deal with the consequences. If you want to compete on a national level these things matter.
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Post by hc1998 on Apr 12, 2023 14:45:22 GMT -5
The top 8-10 players on the top half of the Ivies (HYP) are top tier FCS players. One interesting stat is that 14 Ivy League 2023 grad Transfers are heading to the FBS Power 5 for the fall season. The Big Sky which was arguably the deepest FCS conference last season has 9. The MVC, Big Sky etc get the advantage on HC, Harvard, Yale, Princeton re. depth. Herder alludes to this in is article which is fair. The drop off in talent between the 1s and 2s is where northeastern FCS football doesn’t compare to the big conferences elsewhere. There have been as many Ivy league players (2) drafted in the last 5 years as Fordham players...coincidentally, they both occurred in the same year, and each time Fordham went first. With respect to 53 man rosters (at least a/o start of last year) the Ivies fared a little better than PL. Ivy league had 3 schools represented, PL only 2. Ivies also had more overall players as Harvard had 4, Yale 3, and Penn matching HC and Fordham with 1
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Apr 12, 2023 16:19:43 GMT -5
We over-inflate Ivy football on this board greatly. Nationally they're pretty much seen as scared to play actual competition on a consistent basis. No matter how good we think Harvard is those that make up the FCS committee think very little of HYP. Their self-impose, ridiculous exile in the football world will always hurt Holy Cross.There is no evidence that the FCS selection committee de-values wins (or good losses) against top Ivy teams or that it has any kind anti-Ivy bias. I would need to see a concrete example to believe such a bias exists. Holy Cross has never in recent times been on the at-large playoff bubble so there's no evidence pro or con with regards to Ivy games helping or hurting postseason aspirations in Worcester. We have never been on the bubble in part due to Chesney's teams year after year taking care of business in conference. There is definitely an anti-Ivy bias when it comes to people from the Dakotas and Montana who post on AnyGivenSaturday....but those posters are not the FCS Selection Committee. IMO the committee has done an outstanding job for the most part and I've been following the I-AA/FCS playoffs since 1995.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Apr 12, 2023 16:27:28 GMT -5
The top 8-10 players on the top half of the Ivies (HYP) are top tier FCS players. One interesting stat is that 14 Ivy League 2023 grad Transfers are heading to the FBS Power 5 for the fall season. The Big Sky which was arguably the deepest FCS conference last season has 9. The MVC, Big Sky etc get the advantage on HC, Harvard, Yale, Princeton re. depth. Herder alludes to this in is article which is fair. The drop off in talent between the 1s and 2s is where northeastern FCS football doesn’t compare to the big conferences elsewhere. There have been as many Ivy league players (2) drafted in the last 5 years as Fordham players...coincidentally, they both occurred in the same year, and each time Fordham went first. With respect to 53 man rosters (at least a/o start of last year) the Ivies fared a little better than PL. Ivy league had 3 schools represented, PL only 2. Ivies also had more overall players as Harvard had 4, Yale 3, and Penn matching HC and Fordham with 1 The Ivy League consistently has been amongst the top FCS conferences when it comes to NFL roster infiltration. As of September 2022, this was the breakdown of NFL players by conference: Missouri Valley - 27 CAA - 19 Big Sky - 14 Ivy - 9 OVC/Big South - 8 MEAC - 7 SoCon - 7 SWAC - 7 Southland - 5 Pioneer - 4 Patriot - 3 NEC - 3 WAC - 2 It should also be noted that the Ivy is an 8-team league while the Big Sky and CAA each have 12-14 teams. So I take it Khalif Raymond and Chase Edmonds are the only 2 active NFL players from the PL...wow.
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Post by princetoncrusader on Apr 12, 2023 16:48:21 GMT -5
An example of IL quality is a QB from California, Brevin White. He was a 4 star recruit with offers from all of the Pac 12 schools and even get a late pitch from Saban at Alabama per the WSJ. In three seasons, he got into exactly two games for the Tigers in mop up roles. He graduated in 2022; not sure if he attempted to play as a grad transfer anywhere. He had the misfortune of getting stuck behind some very talented players, at least three of whom ended up in NFL training camps. I believe one, John Lovett, made an NFL roster. Improved fin aid packages and better facilities have helped attract better players compared to say 20 years ago. Princeton has always played a rather lame non-conf schedule except for a game with Army that unfortunately got cancelled in the COVID season. Would be interesting to see how the IL champion would fare in the FCS playoff, but I doubt that will happen for a variety of reasons.
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Post by bartoburger on Apr 12, 2023 17:18:07 GMT -5
So now we have to ask what will it take to sell out Fitton field for a 2023 home game? I know this, the atmosphere will be up there with loudest FCS crowds.maybe home coming will be sold out? But can the city of Worcester hand 23-25k stuffed into Fitton Field?
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Post by hcpride on Apr 12, 2023 17:58:43 GMT -5
So now we have to ask what will it take to sell out Fitton field for a 2023 home game? I know this, the atmosphere will be up there with loudest FCS crowds.maybe home coming will be sold out? But can the city of Worcester hand 23-25k stuffed into Fitton Field? Last year we had 17.5K for ranked Fordham in good weather at Fitton. Can’t see any of our four home games being anywhere as compelling. Merrimack may draw more fans than our PL foes (Colgate, Laffy, and Georgetown) during the upcoming season.
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Post by hcpride on Apr 12, 2023 18:01:19 GMT -5
…Princeton has always played a rather lame non-conf schedule except for a game with Army that unfortunately got cancelled in the COVID season. Would be interesting to see how the IL champion would fare in the FCS playoff, but I doubt that will happen for a variety of reasons. I don’t think they really care about their OOC schedule in terms of building national rank, etc. Why would they?
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Post by DFW HOYA on Apr 12, 2023 18:28:54 GMT -5
So now we have to ask what will it take to sell out Fitton field for a 2023 home game? I know this, the atmosphere will be up there with loudest FCS crowds.maybe home coming will be sold out? But can the city of Worcester hand 23-25k stuffed into Fitton Field? With this schedule, it's not happening. Going forward, it's a function of the opponent. And, let's be up front: 1. No Patriot League opponent is going to get 23,500 tickets sold with local support. None of them. 2. No CAA opponent is going to get 23,500 tickets sold, though a healthy turnout from UNH could get it over 17K. 3. No Ivy League opponent is going to get 23,500 tickets sold, largely because the Ivy fan bases don't travel as they once did and many Ivy families no longer live in the Northeast. That said, there are only three schools that are 1) within three hours of Worcester; that is, they could reasonably drive in on a Saturday morning, 2) have a fan base capable of buying 7,000-10,000 tickets and could draw interest from those in the community who are not HC fans, and, 3) are successful enough programs to which casual fans would invest in attending a road game as opposed to watching it on TV: 1. Boston College 2. Army 3. Connecticut Would any of them give up a home game or a guarantee elsewhere to play at Fitton? Not any more. Would there come a time where HC would actually try to offer a guarantee to Army or UConn to do so? That's for another topic.
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Post by matunuck on Apr 13, 2023 7:46:48 GMT -5
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Post by hc1998 on Apr 13, 2023 7:53:49 GMT -5
There have been as many Ivy league players (2) drafted in the last 5 years as Fordham players...coincidentally, they both occurred in the same year, and each time Fordham went first. With respect to 53 man rosters (at least a/o start of last year) the Ivies fared a little better than PL. Ivy league had 3 schools represented, PL only 2. Ivies also had more overall players as Harvard had 4, Yale 3, and Penn matching HC and Fordham with 1 The Ivy League consistently has been amongst the top FCS conferences when it comes to NFL roster infiltration. As of September 2022, this was the breakdown of NFL players by conference: Missouri Valley - 27 CAA - 19 Big Sky - 14 Ivy - 9 OVC/Big South - 8 MEAC - 7 SoCon - 7 SWAC - 7 Southland - 5 Pioneer - 4 Patriot - 3 NEC - 3 WAC - 2 It should also be noted that the Ivy is an 8-team league while the Big Sky and CAA each have 12-14 teams. So I take it Khalif Raymond and Chase Edmonds are the only 2 active NFL players from the PL...wow. Fair points, especially when you point out the fewer teams in the Ivy League to produce players into the NFL. Just the same, what originally spurred this is comments about the Ivies being disrespected in FCS. I've never thought the top end of the Ivy league is anything better than a roughly #15-25 school....Solid, but not a powerhouse. We learned last year the committee doesn't think much of schools rated there as our Fordham win didn't seem to buy us too much goodwill in seeding, or even in response to our seed where some critics suggested we should not have been seeded.
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Post by hc1998 on Apr 13, 2023 7:58:02 GMT -5
So now we have to ask what will it take to sell out Fitton field for a 2023 home game? I know this, the atmosphere will be up there with loudest FCS crowds.maybe home coming will be sold out? But can the city of Worcester hand 23-25k stuffed into Fitton Field? Not happening...Fordham wasn't only a premiere matchup in beautiful weather, it was also Family Weekend and they still fell about 6K short. Add to that the fact that even for that game they could not accomodate all of the parking and people had to take shuttle busses to the game...fans aren't going to put up with that to watch a PL game. I think we'd need a real marquee matchup under a crazy set of facts to ever get another sell out. Probably something as extreme as the team being as good as it currently is and an opponent coming in with a Gordie Lockbaum-ish Heisman Candidate.
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Post by hcpride on Apr 13, 2023 8:08:16 GMT -5
So now we have to ask what will it take to sell out Fitton field for a 2023 home game? I know this, the atmosphere will be up there with loudest FCS crowds.maybe home coming will be sold out? But can the city of Worcester hand 23-25k stuffed into Fitton Field? With this schedule, it's not happening. Going forward, it's a function of the opponent. And, let's be up front: 1. No Patriot League opponent is going to get 23,500 tickets sold with local support. None of them. 2. No CAA opponent is going to get 23,500 tickets sold, though a healthy turnout from UNH could get it over 17K. 3. No Ivy League opponent is going to get 23,500 tickets sold, largely because the Ivy fan bases don't travel as they once did and many Ivy families no longer live in the Northeast. While a sellout in our oversized stadium is a bridge too far (for the reasons you present), we can still snag a good-sized crowd on rare occasions. Last year's game v ranked Fordham (17.5K) in good weather and Parents Weekend was one such occasion. Plus, of course, it held the promise of a hard-fought close contest with a playoff seed and a playoff selection (for Fordham) possibly in the balance. Unfortunately, this year's four (4) Fitton matchups don't look to be anywhere near as compelling. If weather is similar, Merrimack and Laffy (Parents Weekend) might be our biggest draws...albeit far below Fordham last year.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Apr 13, 2023 8:19:37 GMT -5
I think our continuing run of success will generate a bit better attendance this year versus comparable games last year. That is, we likely added some new fans during the season, folks who took a while to conclude that "hey, these guys are really good". I do know that we play different teams at home from one season to another. One interesting comparison for attendance would be versus the PL visiting teams from two years ago versus this year.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Apr 13, 2023 8:36:04 GMT -5
It's a damn shame the Harvard game is being played at a small baseball stadium instead of our nice on-campus football stadium.
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Post by hc87 on Apr 13, 2023 8:39:10 GMT -5
The only place HC is going to "gain" fans moving forward, is from the general populace within a reasonable driving difference to Fitton on a Saturday afternoon or night. The PL and IL fan-bases don't travel well, the other schools we play occasionally at Fitton like UNH or Sacred Heart travel pretty well but not to the point of Fitton having 20K+ for a game.
I think logistically Fitton is sort of maxed out right now at about 15K or so today, given nearby parking, concessions, fan comfort etc
I'd love to see Fitton regularly having crowds of 15K+ but as we've discussed ad nauseum here, it's difficult to accomplish for a variety of reasons in the year of Our Lord 2023.
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Post by hc1998 on Apr 13, 2023 8:42:04 GMT -5
I think our continuing run of success will generate a bit better attendance this year versus comparable games last year. That is, we likely added some new fans during the season, folks who took a while to conclude that "hey, these guys are really good". I do know that we play different teams at home from one season to another. One interesting comparison for attendance would be versus the PL visiting teams from two years ago versus this year. Unquestionably will, or at least should...the one thing that could impact attendance however, especially with relatively few home games (compared to other sports) is weather...one or two rainy days, or even more home games being shifted to the back end of the schedule could hurt attendance even if interest is up.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Apr 13, 2023 9:15:27 GMT -5
So now we have to ask what will it take to sell out Fitton field for a 2023 home game? I know this, the atmosphere will be up there with loudest FCS crowds.maybe home coming will be sold out? But can the city of Worcester hand 23-25k stuffed into Fitton Field? With this schedule, it's not happening. Going forward, it's a function of the opponent. And, let's be up front: 1. No Patriot League opponent is going to get 23,500 tickets sold with local support. None of them. 2. No CAA opponent is going to get 23,500 tickets sold, though a healthy turnout from UNH could get it over 17K. 3. No Ivy League opponent is going to get 23,500 tickets sold, largely because the Ivy fan bases don't travel as they once did and many Ivy families no longer live in the Northeast. That said, there are only three schools that are 1) within three hours of Worcester; that is, they could reasonably drive in on a Saturday morning, 2) have a fan base capable of buying 7,000-10,000 tickets and could draw interest from those in the community who are not HC fans, and, 3) are successful enough programs to which casual fans would invest in attending a road game as opposed to watching it on TV: 1. Boston College 2. Army 3. Connecticut Would any of them give up a home game or a guarantee elsewhere to play at Fitton? Not any more. Would there come a time where HC would actually try to offer a guarantee to Army or UConn to do so? That's for another topic. The more realistic option is UMASS.
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Post by midwestsader05 on Apr 13, 2023 9:59:45 GMT -5
Lights/evening games at Fitton will help. Possibly Coming as soon as 2024 season but should be at least 2025.
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Post by Chu Chu on Apr 13, 2023 10:20:59 GMT -5
…Princeton has always played a rather lame non-conf schedule except for a game with Army that unfortunately got cancelled in the COVID season. Would be interesting to see how the IL champion would fare in the FCS playoff, but I doubt that will happen for a variety of reasons. I don’t think they really care about their OOC schedule in terms of building national rank, etc. Why would they? Because players and coaches want to test themselves against the best. They want to know what they are capable of. Play the best to be the best!
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Post by Chu Chu on Apr 13, 2023 10:21:49 GMT -5
Lights/evening games at Fitton will help. Possibly Coming as soon as 2024 season but should be at least 2025. Imagine our home season attendance after we beat BC.
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Post by gks on Apr 13, 2023 12:03:58 GMT -5
Lights/evening games at Fitton will help. Possibly Coming as soon as 2024 season but should be at least 2025. Always thought it was a big mistake when Tornadoes installed lights at the baseball field that the infrastructure for lights at the football field wasn't installed. Hopefully this comes true.
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necfbfan
Climbing Mt. St. James
Posts: 78
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Post by necfbfan on Apr 13, 2023 15:55:25 GMT -5
Lights/evening games at Fitton will help. Possibly Coming as soon as 2024 season but should be at least 2025. Imagine our home season attendance after we beat BC. I'm looking forward to the crowd at Chestnut Hill being 50% Sader supporters.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Apr 13, 2023 18:54:43 GMT -5
With this schedule, it's not happening. Going forward, it's a function of the opponent. And, let's be up front: 1. No Patriot League opponent is going to get 23,500 tickets sold with local support. None of them. 2. No CAA opponent is going to get 23,500 tickets sold, though a healthy turnout from UNH could get it over 17K. 3. No Ivy League opponent is going to get 23,500 tickets sold, largely because the Ivy fan bases don't travel as they once did and many Ivy families no longer live in the Northeast. That said, there are only three schools that are 1) within three hours of Worcester; that is, they could reasonably drive in on a Saturday morning, 2) have a fan base capable of buying 7,000-10,000 tickets and could draw interest from those in the community who are not HC fans, and, 3) are successful enough programs to which casual fans would invest in attending a road game as opposed to watching it on TV: 1. Boston College 2. Army 3. Connecticut Would any of them give up a home game or a guarantee elsewhere to play at Fitton? Not any more. Would there come a time where HC would actually try to offer a guarantee to Army or UConn to do so? That's for another topic. The more realistic option is UMASS. The worst 1A squad in the country wouldn't draw squat from the Worc locals other than alums who may still actually care.
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