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Post by timholycross on Jul 11, 2023 9:27:41 GMT -5
Northwestern, Vandy, et al are safe for now because they're grandfathered into their respective conferences. It'd be a legal mess to try and remove a school who has been a member for decades (In the cases of Rutgers and Mizzou, they're lucky they got in when they could.) If, however, the top teams leave the NCAA and form their own league, then yeah, those schools are 100% getting left behind. "grandfathered into" is why I think any founding member of the Patriot League should measure twice before deciding to leave the PL. It can be a jungle out there. The founding member I think you are thinking of mostly doesn't have anything close to a logical choice in terms of leaving. Not even worth debating until there is such a league.
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 11, 2023 10:54:04 GMT -5
Stuck between a rock and a hard place, BC has NIL blocking their path forward and a huge ACC exit fee blocking their path out to sanity.
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Post by gks on Jul 11, 2023 11:20:39 GMT -5
You are 100% correct on this. Unfortunately fanbases are meaningless when it comes to college conference expansions. It's all about TV market size. That's why schools like Vanderbilt (SEC) and Northwestern (Big 10) are not going anywhere. It's no longer about markets - the Big 10 didn't need two teams in Los Angeles 12 miles apart to own the market. It's about brands now. Which is why, not now but eventually, schools like Northwestern, Rutgers, Vanderbilt, Mississippi State, and Missouri are vulnerable. We'll agree to disagree on this one. With two LA teams the Big Ten Network, already a cash cow, will basically become a branch of the U.S. Mint.
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 11, 2023 14:01:46 GMT -5
It's no longer about markets - the Big 10 didn't need two teams in Los Angeles 12 miles apart to own the market. It's about brands now. Which is why, not now but eventually, schools like Northwestern, Rutgers, Vanderbilt, Mississippi State, and Missouri are vulnerable. We'll agree to disagree on this one. With two LA teams the Big Ten Network, already a cash cow, will basically become a branch of the U.S. Mint. UCLA and USC had LA to themselves. And then two NFL franchises rolled into town. If any metro area can handle it LA can I guess.
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Post by bfoley82 on Jul 12, 2023 15:12:25 GMT -5
It's no longer about markets - the Big 10 didn't need two teams in Los Angeles 12 miles apart to own the market. It's about brands now. Which is why, not now but eventually, schools like Northwestern, Rutgers, Vanderbilt, Mississippi State, and Missouri are vulnerable. We'll agree to disagree on this one. With two LA teams the Big Ten Network, already a cash cow, will basically become a branch of the U.S. Mint. Not sure of the future of Cable Networks since more people are cutting the cord and streaming providers are starting to drop networks over carriage agreements.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jul 20, 2023 8:11:57 GMT -5
This kind of seems like the appropriate thread for this —
Can almost see the eye rolls from Maine, UNH, and URI. These schools need to get out of the CAA. It’s becoming a southern conference. Love to see these three, along with Albany and, perhaps, Stony Brook, start their own league and bring Holy Cross and Fordham along.
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Post by trimster on Jul 20, 2023 8:25:40 GMT -5
Hofstra would be a good fit if they still had football. Same could be said about Northeastern.
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Post by timholycross on Jul 20, 2023 8:40:37 GMT -5
The existing and future schools (Hampton, NCA&T, Campbell, Monmouth) don't come from states that aren't original colonies (except Maine, but Maine was at that time part of Mass.)
Which begs the question: is that the real reason they're changing the name?
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Post by DFW HOYA on Jul 20, 2023 9:09:13 GMT -5
Can the PL get the name back?
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Post by hcpride on Jul 20, 2023 9:16:36 GMT -5
/\ It's rather convoluted and more than a bit nonsensical (as these things tend to be) but there are folks who believe racism is somehow tangled up in the very word 'colonial'. Or something along those lines. For those folks (witness the George Washington University events), "colonial" or "colonials" is streng verboten relative to sports teams. So I don't see the PL reclaiming it.
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Post by timholycross on Jul 20, 2023 9:20:48 GMT -5
/\ It's rather convoluted and more than a bit nonsensical (at these things tend to be) but there are folks who believe racism is somehow tangled up in the very word 'colonial'. Or something along those lines. For those folks (witness the George Washington University events), "colonial" or "colonials" is streng verboten relative to sports teams. So I don't see the PL reclaiming it. In line with what I said might be the real reason why the league "went Coastal".
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Post by alum on Jul 20, 2023 10:01:28 GMT -5
/\ It's rather convoluted and more than a bit nonsensical (at these things tend to be) but there are folks who believe racism is somehow tangled up in the very word 'colonial'. Or something along those lines. For those folks (witness the George Washington University events), "colonial" or "colonials" is streng verboten relative to sports teams. So I don't see the PL reclaiming it. Isn't it just about perspective? When most of us focus on the colonial period, we tend to think about the struggle for freedom against the English that culiminated with a victory in the American Revolution. We see the the colonists/colonials as freedom fighters and have a positive outlook about those hardy folks who founded our great nation. I imagine those who already lived here when the Europeans arrived thought about those same people as colonizers, i.e. a group which has been sent to assert political control over an area. That term evokes a different response. We know that the colonists/colonials/colonizers held racist attitudes toward the natives. See the Declaration of Independence. ("He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.")
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 20, 2023 10:10:19 GMT -5
/\ It's rather convoluted and more than a bit nonsensical (at these things tend to be) but there are folks who believe racism is somehow tangled up in the very word 'colonial'. Or something along those lines. For those folks (witness the George Washington University events), "colonial" or "colonials" is streng verboten relative to sports teams. So I don't see the PL reclaiming it. In line with what I said might be the real reason why the league "went Coastal". Of course political correctness is the reason. The Patriot League name is at least somewhat moored in fact as we have two service academies and AU which was chartered by Congress and HC has ROTC. Do any other PL schools offer ROTC?
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Post by Crosser on Jul 20, 2023 13:09:52 GMT -5
Aaah, political correctness. Or as I like to call it, being nice.
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Post by hcpride on Jul 20, 2023 14:00:46 GMT -5
In line with what I said might be the real reason why the league "went Coastal". Of course political correctness is the reason. The Patriot League name is at least somewhat moored in fact as we have two service academies and AU which was chartered by Congress and HC has ROTC. Do any other PL schools offer ROTC? The same virtuous and intolerant folks who insisted “Colonials” (as in George Washington University) was streng verboten could doubtlessly point to the fact that many patriots owned (and bought and sold) slaves and many patriots mistreated Indians. Not to mention the inherent patriarchy/misogyny given the root of the word. And the outrageous ‘othering’ and xenophobia inherent in the word. I don’t doubt HC leadership would apologize for the fact their league was once called Colonial League and apologize and then change the name of our current league.
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hc69
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 224
Member is Online
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Post by hc69 on Jul 20, 2023 15:22:45 GMT -5
The moral zeitgeist changes and we need to change with it. Individuals in the late 19th century who were considered progressive in their time had views that would be considered racist today. Even Lincoln had views that we would now consider abhorrent:
"I will say that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races from living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they can not so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."
That doesn't diminish Lincoln but it does contextualize him.
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Post by Ignutz on Jul 20, 2023 15:43:47 GMT -5
Of course political correctness is the reason. The Patriot League name is at least somewhat moored in fact as we have two service academies and AU which was chartered by Congress and HC has ROTC. Do any other PL schools offer ROTC? The same virtuous and intolerant folks who insisted “Colonials” (as in George Washington University) was streng verboten could doubtlessly point to the fact that many patriots owned (and bought and sold) slaves and many patriots mistreated Indians. Not to mention the inherent patriarchy/misogyny given the root of the word. And the outrageous ‘othering’ and xenophobia inherent in the word. I don’t doubt HC leadership would apologize for the fact their league was once called Colonial League and apologize and then change the name of our current league. Let's re-brand as the Northeast Inter-Collegiate Educational aka "NICE" Conference. Or if we continue to regularly compete with the Ivy League, maybe we can create the Philodendron League. No one can find offense in either of these options.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jul 20, 2023 15:46:54 GMT -5
The same virtuous and intolerant folks who insisted “Colonials” (as in George Washington University) was streng verboten could doubtlessly point to the fact that many patriots owned (and bought and sold) slaves and many patriots mistreated Indians. Not to mention the inherent patriarchy/misogyny given the root of the word. And the outrageous ‘othering’ and xenophobia inherent in the word. I don’t doubt HC leadership would apologize for the fact their league was once called Colonial League and apologize and then change the name of our current league. Let's re-brand as the Northeast Inter-Collegiate Educational aka "NICE" Conference. Or if we continue to regularly compete with the Ivy League, maybe we can create the Philodendron League. No one can find offense in either of these options. Philodendrons and closely related species contain calcium oxalate crystals which are toxic to humans, dogs, cats, and other animals. You want to kill dogs? Disgusting.
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Post by cruskater31 on Jul 20, 2023 18:55:53 GMT -5
Yes. The Patriot League offends me haha. I find our whole affiliation with the thing cringy.
On a serious note, I think the northern CAA teams plus Fordham, HC, perhaps SHU and Merrimack would be good fits. Someday UMass should join.
That is, of course, if we can't get into a new Big East when the FBS landscape changes!
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Post by efg72 on Jul 20, 2023 19:25:47 GMT -5
Like the notion, but despite my hopes I realize it is little more than a fantasy to keep the athletic programs headed in the right direction
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 20, 2023 21:02:13 GMT -5
The other PL schools saw HC and Fordham shine last season. It will be interesting to see if any of them will step up this season to join the party.
Much is made of three less scholarships, no medical red shirts, the AI, as placing an artificial ceiling on how good a PL team can be. But if you watched Fordham and HC against Ohio and Buffalo last year, you realize that ceiling on competitiveness has been shattered and other league teams can burst through it, too.
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Post by sader1970 on Jul 21, 2023 5:33:37 GMT -5
But maybe their takeaway is they should all become Jesuit schools. . . . . . including Georgetown.😂
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Post by hcpride on Jul 21, 2023 5:51:32 GMT -5
The other PL schools saw HC and Fordham shine last season. It will be interesting to see if any of them will step up this season to join the party. Much is made of three less scholarships, no medical red shirts, the AI, as placing an artificial ceiling on how good a PL team can be. But if you watched Fordham and HC against Ohio and Buffalo last year, you realize that ceiling on competitiveness has been shattered and other league teams can burst through it, too. I don't think the rest of the PL has reduced the talent gap with Holy Cross. I do think Lehigh has a significant coaching upgrade (head coach and offensive coordinator) and will improve their record (they lost 4 very close ones last year enroute to 2-9). And Fordham wants to make the playoffs. I'm not sure any of the rest have designs beyond 'competing' for the Patriot League football championship. I wouldn't discount the dramatic impact of 5th-years on HC success as HC had 5 [Peter Oliver, Nick Olsofska, Derek Ng, Dan Kuznetsov, and Liam Anderson] 1st Team All-PL players who were 5th-years. I completely agree regarding AI.
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Post by sader1970 on Jul 21, 2023 8:44:20 GMT -5
JMO but while I agree with the above statement, I have a strong suspicion that despite the rhetoric, that's Holy Cross' position on all the other sports except football, men's and women's basketball and possibly both hockey programs. All the others? ehhh. "Compete" or in other words, "participation trophies."
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 21, 2023 9:10:41 GMT -5
HC Minor Sports: "Compete" in D-1 with non-scholarship athletes. You remember Mike Tyson? Holy Cross is the other fighter in the ring.
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