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Post by longsuffering on Jul 5, 2023 10:54:17 GMT -5
Allowing him back on campus would be a very magnanimous gesture considering that had he not been caught in lies (perjury even?) that he'd likely be still pursuing this lawsuit. Before I'd even consider allowing him back on campus or any reconciliation, I'd insist that he put in writing a promise to never again not only to not sue the school or its principals but to cease and desist any public or private comments that somehow the College "did him wrong." A public apology for his actions would probably be a bridge too far but a promise to basically shut up is the lower threshold if I had a say in the matter. If he could do that, and I'm not sure that he's reached that point, I'd welcome him back with open arms and maybe even give him an administrative position in athletics if Kit would have him. Without that promise, hiring him or allowing him back on campus might send the wrong message that some out-of-court secret settlement was made to accommodate him (i.e. he "won" and HC was wrong and settled just to save money). Outside of Crossports, no one else is likely to read the court decision. Whoa. I think the "once burnt, twice shy" rule applies to HC hiring him again. I was thinking of something like reinstating the annual WBB visit to the Mercy Center and inviting Bill to come or something.
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Post by sader1970 on Jul 5, 2023 11:24:41 GMT -5
C’mon, Christian charity and forgiveness.😉
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jul 5, 2023 12:11:29 GMT -5
IIRC from the pleadings, at the time of the second suspension (the first suspension was when he voluntarily suspended himself in the Cooper matter, and then unsuspended himself) he had a hissy fit with the Office of Administration about having to turn over his keys to the Hart and the coaches suite of offices, and his College-issued credit cards; and not being allowed to attend a basketball-related event on campus. Again IIRC, during the first 'suspension', he returned to campus and met with the local press who were on campus for a briefing related to that 'suspension'.
From the pleadings, with respect to the second suspension, he insisted he had a right to review the draft report of the investigating official(s) and the statements of those interviewed (presumably players and coaches) during the course of the investigation, and before the report was submitted to the adjudicating official. Presumably, he wanted to see what others had said about him and his behavior.
Most of the 'cast' in the suspension sagas have moved on, with the exception of Rosemary Shea, who I recall was a named defendant in Cooper v. Holy Cross. (Allegedly, Shea had witnessed the incident(s) involving Cooper.)
I don't believe HC barred him from campus once he was no longer employed. His lawyers may have strongly urged him not to go on campus while his legal claims against the college were being litigated.
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 5, 2023 13:23:56 GMT -5
Perhaps the so called fit was a bursting of emotions over the stressful status of being effectively terminated but not being able to act on wrongful termination because of still being paid and active as an employee, albeit suspended without keys. He never was terminated or docked pay, which always gave HC a defense.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jul 5, 2023 14:25:25 GMT -5
Perhaps the so called fit was a bursting of emotions over the stressful status of being effectively terminated but not being able to act on wrongful termination because of still being paid and active as an employee, albeit suspended without keys. He never was terminated or docked pay, which always gave HC a defense. I disagree that he was wrongfully terminated. He alleged in his complaint that his contract was not extended because there was a unplanned budget shortfall in the women's basketball program and he had become too expensive, and HC wanted to hire a new head coach who was less expensive. None, some, or all of that allegation may be true. IMO, he seems to have come to believe that his many years as head coach had given him the equivalent of being tenured faculty; i.e., he was entitled to remain as head coach as long as he chose.
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 5, 2023 18:50:43 GMT -5
Perhaps the so called fit was a bursting of emotions over the stressful status of being effectively terminated but not being able to act on wrongful termination because of still being paid and active as an employee, albeit suspended without keys. He never was terminated or docked pay, which always gave HC a defense. I disagree that he was wrongfully terminated. He alleged in his complaint that his contract was not extended because there was a unplanned budget shortfall in the women's basketball program and he had become too expensive, and HC wanted to hire a new head coach who was less expensive. None, some, or all of that allegation may be true. IMO, he seems to have come to believe that his many years as head coach had given him the equivalent of being tenured faculty; i.e., he was entitled to remain as head coach as long as he chose. I said he was never terminated. That was HC's ace in the hole. They absorbed the awkwardness of letting his contract run out on paid suspension, thus it could never be said it was a wrongful termination because there was no termination. The contract ended. I agree with your mention of tenured status. Even Jim Boheim didn't have that. That would have to be negotiated into the contract. Any budget shortfalls are irrelevant. Bill Belichick's father Steve Belichick did have tenure at the Naval Academy. He was a tenured Professor of Physical Education with a pension he could add his WW2 military years of service to. He passed up opportunities to be a head coach elsewhere to stay as an assistant coach at the Academy and keep the security it offered for his family.
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coachrt
Climbing Mt. St. James
Posts: 93
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Post by coachrt on Jul 5, 2023 19:40:15 GMT -5
Too bad BG went ahead and altered those emails. Just can’t imagine what he was thinking to do that. I’m sure those were from fellow coaches/administrators who would have gone to bat for him originally if he wanted to get back into coaching. Now, they are left with a feeling of mistrust for what he did to aid his cause.
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 6, 2023 0:17:23 GMT -5
Too bad BG went ahead and altered those emails. Just can’t imagine what he was thinking to do that. I’m sure those were from fellow coaches/administrators who would have gone to bat for him originally if he wanted to get back into coaching. Now, they are left with a feeling of mistrust for what he did to aid his cause. Agree. Just pure speculation on my part but I wondered early on if the lack of moving on to a lower position, but one still in coaching, was influenced by trying to show how HC had made him unable to land a job. Landing a job would nullify that concept. Conversely, former MBB HC BN and AD KH handled Brett's transition flawlessly. Despite delays due to some kind of Covid extension, nary a discouraging word was heard and BN moved on to an assistant coach position faster than you can say "attack and serve." BG was snake bitten from the start of his long goodbye when AD NP, who thought the original in-game kerfuffle within the staff was not a big deal, moved on and an interim AD took over. BG didn't have the equivalent of a stable and secure AD overseeing the Dept like BN had.
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Post by sader1970 on Jul 6, 2023 6:26:17 GMT -5
I always suspect that in these situations, whether Kearny, Brown, Nelson, Gibbons that what we see is the tip of the iceberg with what happens between them; the AD; and the current administration as well as the families and student-athletes of all involved. So much more is likely "behind the curtain" that effects the what, how, when.
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 6, 2023 9:53:00 GMT -5
I always suspect that in these situations, whether Kearny, Brown, Nelson, Gibbons that what we see is the tip of the iceberg with what happens between them; the AD; and the current administration as well as the families and student-athletes of all involved. So much more is likely "behind the curtain" that effects the what, how, when. In front of the curtain KH handled the BN to DP transition well. He handled the Chesney and Magarity extensions well. If all we see is the tip of the iceberg and no ocean liner sinks to the bottom of the sea after hitting said iceberg, I'm happy. If Kit had an unlimited budget he might be able to make all our teams ship-shape. Since he doesn't it comes down to spending priorities. Women's hockey is the most expensive of the many seriously underperforming sports. I wonder if that sport is his next priority focus. He doesn't move rashly, which is good. If that program starts progressing all our full funded scholarship sports will be in a good place.
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Post by Tom on Jul 7, 2023 8:06:09 GMT -5
Like many here I'm grateful to BG for all he did for HC and its women's program. However, he sued the school because he didn't get a new contract and tried to win the case by cheating and lying. If there is to be a time to be magnanimous I think it's down the road, maybe very far down the road. I would be magnanimous today. If there was a no trespass order for him on school property, I would let that go. With the law suit in the rear view mirror, I would treat him like any other anonymous resident of central MA. If he wants to buy a ticket to a sporting event, let him. I would not have a wanted poster so the security guards would know to block his entrance. Is there a realistic fear that if he goes to a play at the PAC, he's going to "trip" and injure himself and sue the school again? That doesn't mean I'd give him special treatment and the ability to stroll into the basketball offices any time he wanted to (like I assume Togo could have). I don't see the harm in treating him like any of the other 200, 000 people who live in Worcester
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Post by oldschoolhoops on Jul 7, 2023 11:30:26 GMT -5
I think it's unlikely we'd see Gibbons just show up at a campus event or game; I would imagine there is some pain and/or regret that would make it challenging to do so. But he absolutely should be welcome to attend any campus event open to the public without issue.
The success of Gibbons' teams over the course of his career makes him a significant figure in the College's sports history and it's better for all to see fences mended by all parties. At some point, there may come a time when an apology may be more easily extended for what appears to be dishonest tactics in response to the departure; and a moment when forgiveness is granted and appropriate. It's unlikely that time is now.
But there is much to be celebrated, especially with the women's hoops program, and connecting past to present without a "he who shall not be named" approach serves everyone.
Life is too short for any other BS. Stakeholders should plant those seeds soon and see what grows; would be better for everyone and the College in general.
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Post by Tom on Jul 7, 2023 13:46:27 GMT -5
I think it's unlikely we'd see Gibbons just show up at a campus event or game; I would imagine there is some pain and/or regret that would make it challenging to do so. But he absolutely should be welcome to attend any campus event open to the public without issue. The success of Gibbons' teams over the course of his career makes him a significant figure in the College's sports history and it's better for all to see fences mended by all parties. At some point, there may come a time when an apology may be more easily extended for what appears to be dishonest tactics in response to the departure; and a moment when forgiveness is granted and appropriate. It's unlikely that time is now. But there is much to be celebrated, especially with the women's hoops program, and connecting past to present without a "he who shall not be named" approach serves everyone. Life is too short for any other BS. Stakeholders should plant those seeds soon and see what grows; would be better for everyone and the College in general. As I hinted above, I think the most likely scenario for Coach Gibbons to return to campus would be if one of his former players gets married in the chapel. I don't see the day when Coach Gibbons apologizes to the school
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Post by longsuffering on Jul 7, 2023 16:43:37 GMT -5
Like many here I'm grateful to BG for all he did for HC and its women's program. However, he sued the school because he didn't get a new contract and tried to win the case by cheating and lying. If there is to be a time to be magnanimous I think it's down the road, maybe very far down the road. I would be magnanimous today. If there was a no trespass order for him on school property, I would let that go. With the law suit in the rear view mirror, I would treat him like any other anonymous resident of central MA. If he wants to buy a ticket to a sporting event, let him. I would not have a wanted poster so the security guards would know to block his entrance. Is there a realistic fear that if he goes to a play at the PAC, he's going to "trip" and injure himself and sue the school again? That doesn't mean I'd give him special treatment and the ability to stroll into the basketball offices any time he wanted to (like I assume Togo could have). I don't see the harm in treating him like any of the other 200, 000 people who live in Worcester Start an annual "Coach Bill Gibbons Classic" pitting HC WBB against the Mercy Center. The teams played each other for Many years under Gibbons. The Mercy Center remains undefeated in the series I believe.
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Post by rgs318 on Jul 7, 2023 20:36:37 GMT -5
As positive as I feel that is, as long as there is the possbility of more legal action by BG, I doubt it could happen.
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Post by timholycross on Jul 7, 2023 20:49:55 GMT -5
As positive as I feel that is, as long as there is the possbility of more legal action by BG, I doubt it could happen. Are you thinking he could resuscitate this specific legal action; or something else?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Jul 8, 2023 4:11:11 GMT -5
As positive as I feel that is, as long as there is the possbility of more legal action by BG, I doubt it could happen. Are you thinking he could resuscitate this specific legal action; or something else? The instant case was dismissed with prejudice, so he would need to find a new venue, a new lawyer, a new complaint, all on his nickel. If you go back to Cooper, his behavior in legal matters could be described as erratic. After Cooper's complaint was filed in NY, he rather quickly suspended himself; former players rallied around him in support; a letter writing campaign was organized among members of the coaching community, asking, IIRC, that the President of Holy Cross reinstate him. There was no reinstatement, and he subsequently decided to unsuspend himself. Again IIRC, the 'suspension' lasted no more than two weeks.
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Post by rgs318 on Jul 8, 2023 6:22:15 GMT -5
As positive as I feel that is, as long as there is the possbility of more legal action by BG, I doubt it could happen. Are you thinking he could resuscitate this specific legal action; or something else? The latter...if he was angry enough to create false items to try to strengthen his case, who knows what he could come up with in the futureif if given an opportunity to do so?
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Post by sader1970 on Jul 8, 2023 6:35:27 GMT -5
This might be slightly over the top but this whole situation is like a Greek tragedy. (Or has my rusty mind forgotten the Classics at Holy Cross? )
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Post by timholycross on Jul 8, 2023 8:39:19 GMT -5
Are you thinking he could resuscitate this specific legal action; or something else? The latter...if he was angry enough to create false items to try to strengthen his case, who knows what he could come up with in the future if if given an opportunity to do so? Are we sure at this point there is still some kind of restraining order? They have to be updated periodically, know someone who's had to reappear a few times to keep one going.
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Post by timholycross on Jul 8, 2023 8:40:30 GMT -5
This might be slightly over the top but this whole situation is like a Greek tragedy. (Or has my rusty mind forgotten the Classics at Holy Cross? ) At least not as bad as The Banshees of Inisherin; Billy's still got all his digits.
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Post by newfieguy74 on Jul 8, 2023 9:03:09 GMT -5
This might be slightly over the top but this whole situation is like a Greek tragedy. (Or has my rusty mind forgotten the Classics at Holy Cross? ) I remember from Ken Happe's Classics courses the concept of Hamartia, a fatal flaw. Seems to fit here.
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Post by newfieguy74 on Jul 8, 2023 9:04:58 GMT -5
The latter...if he was angry enough to create false items to try to strengthen his case, who knows what he could come up with in the future if if given an opportunity to do so? Are we sure at this point there is still some kind of restraining order? They have to be updated periodically, know someone who's had to reappear a few times to keep one going. There was never a restraining order in the civil case that was just dismissed. I'm not aware of a restraining order issued by any other court.
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Post by HC92 on Jul 8, 2023 10:08:07 GMT -5
As impressive as it is that we’ve gotten this to 6 pages, might be time for this thread to die. Sad end to the College’s relationship with one of our longest-tenured coaches. Lots of things could have been done differently by lots of people in the last few years to make this less ugly. No one can go back and change any of it. Sucks but it is what it is at this point.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Jul 8, 2023 21:49:03 GMT -5
A former Holy Cross Head Coach returned to campus without acrimony or threaten litigation and showed a fist bumped with a smile to his successor on the field that he spent 14 seasons. He picked himself up, and continued with his career. Even today, I believe FHC TG bleeds Purple, and would not take any actions to show the institution in a negative situation. Photo courtesy of the Class Correspondent of the Class of 1970, Sader1970..
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