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Post by Tom on Mar 24, 2023 18:24:48 GMT -5
Circling back to Senator Welsh. . .
I am not up to speed with his stance on every issue and certainly can't speak to the nuances on his positions.
That being said, there have been posts about the local bishop's opinion of this speaker. There is a Catholic middle school in the diocese that the bishop thought was (in what I consider a very narrow interpretation of the situation) promoting ideas that were in conflict to Catholic teaching. He took the extraordinary action of removing the schools status as a Catholic school. That was an ongoing situation where as commencement is a one shot deal and might not be seen as promoting views contrary to Catholic teaching. I don't think the bishop would take a drastic step against HC, but I didn't think he would take it against the middle school either. So who knows.
And I say this as someone who had my HC graduation protested
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Mar 24, 2023 18:32:11 GMT -5
I guess they don't teach 'primacy of conscience' at Holy Cross anymore, unless one is a religious studies major. Primacy of conscience trumps (no pun) doctrine.
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Post by mm67 on Mar 24, 2023 18:32:56 GMT -5
Quite frankly I am surprised by all the attention to this stuff by parents, schools, critics & supporters. I am confused as usual. On the one hand it seems premature in the extreme to take steps to cut off this or that or add various gender changing/affirming hormones in an attempt to transition a youngster. Why not wait? At least some of changes are permanent, no? The kid may miss what he no longer has in his teen years. On the other hand so many of us understandably trumpet the rights of parents to decide for their kids. I suspect many of those who champion parental control would support laws which in fact deny parental control when it comes to choosing transition surgery & hormones for their youngsters. Parental control only for those parents with whom we agree? If it were I I'd go the patience, counseling, love & support route. Why do today what can be put off till tomorrow? Is there an AMA position/recommendation on these procedures or use of these hormones? Peace.
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Post by alum on Mar 24, 2023 18:41:21 GMT -5
You will not fit in among faculty or administrators in public schools in CT. If the children say they are cats or horses or martians, you must treat them as such and with respect. People who say otherwise (like you) are hateful bigots who are driving up youth suicide rates. This is where we are. And I will add to that by saying that I have heard there are schools in Central Mass that have put in "litter boxes" for those who identify as cats.... Yes, this is sadly where we are!!! That’s an urban legend
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 24, 2023 20:24:51 GMT -5
I believe the litterboxs are in the "legend" category. I worked with one New England state (not Mass) on addressing the issue of suicide among gay and lesbian students. The data I saw made it seem that they were the most at risk (as a group) of future suicide (attempted or completed). However, what I have seen about suicide attempts among transgender students makes those earlier numbers look low by comparison.
At my own high school, the number of girls who had same-sex lovers made it appear that the percentage of lesbians was very high. Ten years later, almost 3/4 of those young women are in heterosexual relationships in which hey feel happy and fulfilled. I am glad for their sakes that they were not given treatments that might have made finding their way through life more difficult.
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Post by HC92 on Mar 24, 2023 20:33:38 GMT -5
I like all the articles online purporting to debunk the claim that schools are providing litter boxes for students who identify as cats. They all make clear that it’s preposterous that schools would provide litter boxes to students but apparently not preposterous that our schools all have kids who identify as cats.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Mar 24, 2023 20:57:53 GMT -5
Only on Crossports...
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Post by Crucis#1 on Mar 24, 2023 21:06:22 GMT -5
Kids who are pretending and identifying as furry creatures are no different than adults who CosPlay at a Comic Com Convention or adults who insist their puppies or kitties as their fur babies with all the costumes and treats.
A few adolescents pretending to be something they are not have been around since time immemorial. Kids like to envision themselves in a setting away from their current reality, which if you looked at their family background may unearthed a less than desirable environment. Adults sitting at their cubicles daydreaming about sitting on the beach or sailing in the Caribbean are trying to escape their environment until the phone rings or the boss is looking for a report.
What boomer as a kid did not want to be Superman and fly? Was that reality?
No since getting your pants in a bunch. They are not your children or grandchildren, eventually they will age and pretend they are something else.
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Post by mm67 on Mar 24, 2023 21:06:33 GMT -5
This may be off. As messy as it is, I think all this talk is part of the process through which various jurisdictions are muddling through and figuring out how to deal with this issue. It seems there are quite a few teens who are struggling to the extent that suicide is a problem. And, pre-teens? Of course some come to the table with preconceptions. On the other hand one of our posters who has dealt with the issue of gender nonconformity in his experience approached the issue with an open mind and with patience, understanding and love - very wise. Gotta' help the kids.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 24, 2023 21:14:09 GMT -5
Kids who are pretending and identifying as furry creatures are no different than adults who CosPlay at a Comic Com Convention or adults who insist their puppies or kitties as their fur babies with all the costumes and treats. A few adolescents pretending to be something they are not have been around since time immemorial. Kids like to envision themselves in a setting away from their current reality, which if you looked at their family background may unearthed a less than desirable environment. Adults sitting at their cubicles daydreaming about sitting on the beach or sailing in the Caribbean are trying to escape their environment until the phone rings or the boss is looking for a report. What boomer as a kid did not want to be Superman and fly? Was that reality? No since getting your pants in a bunch. They are not your children or grandchildren, eventually they will age and pretend they are something else. Agreed. The concern (for some) is when the young kids hit the hormones, hormone blockers, or surgery to become something they are not.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Mar 24, 2023 21:18:41 GMT -5
Circling back to Senator Welsh. . . I am not up to speed with his stance on every issue and certainly can't speak to the nuances on his positions. That being said, there have been posts about the local bishop's opinion of this speaker. There is a Catholic middle school in the diocese that the bishop thought was (in what I consider a very narrow interpretation of the situation) promoting ideas that were in conflict to Catholic teaching. He took the extraordinary action of removing the schools status as a Catholic school. That was an ongoing situation where as commencement is a one shot deal and might not be seen as promoting views contrary to Catholic teaching. I don't think the bishop would take a drastic step against HC, but I didn't think he would take it against the middle school either. So who knows. And I say this as someone who had my HC graduation protested Was that the year W. Wilson Goode received an honorary degree? Believe there was a plane flying overhear with a sign…”Please don’t bomb our campus”.
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Post by mm67 on Mar 25, 2023 7:14:33 GMT -5
Imagine if HC applied a religious litmus test of Pro-Life, Transgender Issues, etc. to Trustees, Administrators & faculty, students & staff. These folks are part of the everyday life-blood of the school. Certainly, they would be worthy of more attention than a one off speaker at commencement. The Jesuits wisely have a tradition of openness to discuss & yes disagree with people with all points of view. And, Sen. Welch is merely giving a commencement speech. What's there to be afraid of?
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Post by Tom on Mar 25, 2023 7:40:13 GMT -5
Circling back to Senator Welsh. . . I am not up to speed with his stance on every issue and certainly can't speak to the nuances on his positions. That being said, there have been posts about the local bishop's opinion of this speaker. There is a Catholic middle school in the diocese that the bishop thought was (in what I consider a very narrow interpretation of the situation) promoting ideas that were in conflict to Catholic teaching. He took the extraordinary action of removing the schools status as a Catholic school. That was an ongoing situation where as commencement is a one shot deal and might not be seen as promoting views contrary to Catholic teaching. I don't think the bishop would take a drastic step against HC, but I didn't think he would take it against the middle school either. So who knows. And I say this as someone who had my HC graduation protested Was that the year W. Wilson Goode received an honorary degree? Believe there was a plane flying overhear with a sign…”Please don’t bomb our campus”. It was indeed. Although some of the protests might have been about a fine institution like Holy Cross giving someone like me a degree
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Post by hcpride on Mar 25, 2023 7:50:04 GMT -5
/\ As I recall that mayor went from hero (in some quarters) to zero (in the very same quarters) remarkably quickly.
The bombing took place after he was selected (but, of course, prior to the ceremony).
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Post by matunuck on Mar 25, 2023 8:31:09 GMT -5
FWIW— My view on alum speakers is that if they’ve risen high up in their profession or otherwise have a highly commendable background, HC should always welcome and spotlight them — whether I agree with their views or not. To me, HC is first and foremost an academic institution and should foster open but civil discussion and debate. That said, I do have concerns that some colleges have become overly politicized and dogmatic leaving little to no room for dissenting or skeptical voices to be heard. HC should always strive to avoid that narrow lane, and I hope that is recognized by the school’s leadership.
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Post by newfieguy74 on Mar 25, 2023 8:39:05 GMT -5
FWIW— My view on alum speakers is that if they’ve risen high up in their profession or otherwise have a highly commendable background, HC should always welcome and spotlight them — whether I agree with their views or not. To me, HC is first and foremost an academic institution and should foster open but civil discussion and debate. That said, I do have concerns that some colleges have become overly politicized and dogmatic leaving little to no room for dissenting or skeptical voices to be heard. HC should always strive to avoid that narrow lane, and I hope that is recognized by the school’s leadership. Exactly. I don't want to get political here but I cringe when I hear about students heckling speakers (e.g. Stanford) or demanding that certain speakers be cancelled because they espouse ideas they disagree with. Obviously colleges should not schedule speakers who promote hatred or violence but when a speaker is jeered simply because they are conservative it's time to have a discussion with the students about the point of their education, and that they should not be seeking to harden their views but to challenge them.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Mar 25, 2023 8:47:39 GMT -5
FWIW— My view on alum speakers is that if they’ve risen high up in their profession or otherwise have a highly commendable background, HC should always welcome and spotlight them — whether I agree with their views or not. To me, HC is first and foremost an academic institution and should foster open but civil discussion and debate. That said, I do have concerns that some colleges have become overly politicized and dogmatic leaving little to no room for dissenting or skeptical voices to be heard. HC should always strive to avoid that narrow lane, and I hope that is recognized by the school’s leadership. Exactly. I don't want to get political here but I cringe when I hear about students heckling speakers (e.g. Stanford) or demanding that certain speakers be cancelled because they espouse ideas they disagree with. Obviously colleges should not schedule speakers who promote hatred or violence but when a speaker is jeered simply because they are conservative it's time to have a discussion with the students about the point of their education, and that they should not be seeking to harden their views but to challenge them. Absolutely agree. The strange thing is that the aggressive protesting, which often time leads to heckling and violence on these college campuses only happens when someone who is conservative speaks on campuses.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 25, 2023 8:57:05 GMT -5
I believe it depends less on whether one actually is or is not conservative, than it does on whether or not they are "labeled" as such. It is often the label that triggers demonstrations that what the speaker actually believes or has said. After all, many of the protesters ofteh have not heard or read anything from that person but are there to make sure no one else does. Labeling is a scary pocess when it is based on ignorance. I have heard, and believe, that no decision can bebetter than the information on which it is based. When that "information" is just a label why should ant decision about demonstrations surprise us?
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Post by hcpride on Mar 25, 2023 8:58:11 GMT -5
FWIW— My view on alum speakers is that if they’ve risen high up in their profession or otherwise have a highly commendable background, HC should always welcome and spotlight them — whether I agree with their views or not. To me, HC is first and foremost an academic institution and should foster open but civil discussion and debate. That said, I do have concerns that some colleges have become overly politicized and dogmatic leaving little to no room for dissenting or skeptical voices to be heard. HC should always strive to avoid that narrow lane, and I hope that is recognized by the school’s leadership. Exactly. I don't want to get political here but I cringe when I hear about students heckling speakers (e.g. Stanford) or demanding that certain speakers be cancelled because they espouse ideas they disagree with. Obviously colleges should not schedule speakers who promote hatred or violence but when a speaker is jeered simply because they are conservative it's time to have a discussion with the students about the point of their education, and that they should not be seeking to harden their views but to challenge them. Although this sort of thing is commonplace at colleges nowadays (and one would only know that by reading a variety of sources) the Stanford incident made it to the popular press. Dissent from the prevailing campus orthodoxy is frequently (and sometimes violently) stifled. Kudos to Stanford for admonishing the kids and canning the admin who encouraged them. Hopefully they’ll invite the speaker back so we can see if the kids learned anything. I’m sure HC welcomes conservatives as graduation speakers and maybe we’ll see that next year.
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Post by HC92 on Mar 25, 2023 9:07:16 GMT -5
FWIW— My view on alum speakers is that if they’ve risen high up in their profession or otherwise have a highly commendable background, HC should always welcome and spotlight them — whether I agree with their views or not. To me, HC is first and foremost an academic institution and should foster open but civil discussion and debate. That said, I do have concerns that some colleges have become overly politicized and dogmatic leaving little to no room for dissenting or skeptical voices to be heard. HC should always strive to avoid that narrow lane, and I hope that is recognized by the school’s leadership. I’ll agree with all of this as soon as our alum on the Supreme Court is invited to be graduation speaker. We’ve had more drag shows than conservative speakers on campus this year.
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Post by hcpride on Mar 25, 2023 9:22:25 GMT -5
I believe it depends less on whether one actually is or is not conservative, than it does on whether or not they are "labeled" as such. It is often the label that triggers demonstrations that what the speaker actually believes or has said. After all, many of the protesters ofteh have not heard or read anything from that person but are there to make sure no one else does. Labeling is a scary pocess when it is based on ignorance. I have heard, and believe, that no decision can bebetter than the information on which it is based. When that "information" is just a label why should ant decision about demonstrations surprise us? The strategy of faux-labeling conservative or libertarian or dissenting speech as ‘hate’ and then banning/stifling/disrupting such speech is a tried and true campus strategy. After all, who tolerates ‘hate’? Who will defend ‘hate’ speech.
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Post by mm67 on Mar 25, 2023 9:29:12 GMT -5
Refer all to the 3/24 WaPo Editorial opinion piece on free speech at Stanford & beyond. The "juice" is definitely worth "the squeeze." Please understand I write this in no way to support the positions taken by the guest speaker at Sanford or any guest speaker. I write in support of the right of any speaker to speak & be heard, including the above referenced Sup. Ct. Justice. I did not think commencement addresses were political in nature but more pastoral in incentivizing students to live good, fulfilled, successful lives.
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Post by CHC8485 on Mar 25, 2023 9:33:37 GMT -5
While the protests may have been for the college conferring degrees upon Tom, myself and others of our ilk, the main protest was against our Commencement speaker Paul Nitze, who was one of the architects of US policy toward the Soviet Union from Roosevelt to Reagan. At the time of our graduation Nitze was the chief arms negotiator for the Reagan Administration during a period arms buildup that began at the end of the Carter administration as a result, in part, of reports from Team B, the Think Tank he cofounded earlier in the 70's. With that as background, a local pacifist group led by a Holy Cross grad and likely the Pax Christi chapter at the college had a large banner made and hung it from the last row of Fitton, possibly against the press box wall, that read ... Don't Build BombsThe week before graduation, Goode, the mayor of Philadelphia, authorized dropping a bomb on a building that was housing a radical group called MOVE. That bomb resulted in 4 city blocks burning to the ground. Because of that, the peace group included a hand written addendum to their message so the sign read .................or DropDon't Build^Bombs I don't recall a word Nitze said but I remember the sign!
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Post by hcpride on Mar 25, 2023 9:44:29 GMT -5
/\ Off the topic but I’ve always thought Mayor Woodrow Wilson Goode had a remarkable full name (the fact that many progressives now believe President Woodrow Wilson bad is just too funny in this context 😊)
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Post by mm67 on Mar 25, 2023 15:52:30 GMT -5
Wilson's legacy is definitely mixed at best. And, not just to progressives. For example his administration's resegregating the Fed work force in DC does not win him many friends across the political spectrum left to right. Don't want to get too political.
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