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Post by hc1996 on Oct 9, 2023 9:23:13 GMT -5
I wonder if Kit Hughes has a response to these questions? Is there a plan for post-COVID HC football that will allow them to compete for a national championship?
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Post by mm67 on Oct 9, 2023 9:28:45 GMT -5
SOV, TBT you did not directly address the issues I raised in my post. You & others keep trying to shift the discussion to "ACADEMIC REPUTATION." I made no reference to reputation. Read my comment & you'll see I mentioned the "mission" of the school and its "values." I try to take a more holistic view of the college. I do not live vicariously through HC sports as some might do. Outgrown my student days? Sure, winning is better than losing. But I don't puff up my chest in pride when HC wins or sink to the depths when HC loses. HC success does not validate my existence. IMO A small vocal minority on this board have been pushing for greater emphasis to the detriment of the underlying values which shape HC's policies. The PL, which HC helped to create, mirrors HC's long held commitment to prioritize academic excellence with constraints on athletics. We can all agree to disagree in fellowship and hopefully harmony, no(?) By the way you are correct. Some going all the way back to the '60's believed the NESCAC would be good landing spot for a variety of reasons. Unfortunately, HC was not able to get past the front gate. NESCAC was never a reality. With Respect, mm67
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Post by efg72 on Oct 9, 2023 9:33:32 GMT -5
These decisions will be made by players, their families, and coaches. I'm not sure the FBS route does much for any of our players in terms of recognition and evaluations by the media and scouts. They are well-known, highly regarded, and likely to have options.
For those not considering a professional football opportunity, it would make sense to use the option for graduate school.
It is time for HC to slightly adjust its program offerings and use the Fauci Science Center for a one-year graduate program in public health. We need to be better advocates for our health, and understanding the Future of Health would benefit all of us. The world of public and private payer decisions is not improving our health outcomes.
I believe the WPI 3-2 is back in place, and HC could offer a 4-1 program for students interested in an advanced degree. Some of the 700-plus student-athletes would stick around for it, but my guess is most would not.
The world is changing, and to make a slight adjustment by adding a small graduate program would be a positive move.
Concerning the goal of playing for national championships, the FCS and FBS realignment is confusing and will remain for two or three years. Some FCSs will move up, and some FBSs will move to the FCS. Time will tell what conferences exist, how they are structured, and how each mission will be defined.
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Post by hc1996 on Oct 9, 2023 9:39:07 GMT -5
The academic argument is so played. BC, Gtown, Duke, Stanford, UNC, Michigan, UConn, etc. The list goes on. All incredible schools. Athletics has only helped them grow. HC needs to make some changes or be more creative if we want to continue to compete at this level. I completely recognize that we are a small liberal arts school with about 3000 kids, but there are things we can do to help us compete. The Ivy League is more creative. On the cover they say they don’t offer scholarships. I hope everyone knows that isn’t really true.
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Post by gks on Oct 9, 2023 9:43:32 GMT -5
SOV, TBT you did not directly address the issues I raised in my post. You & others keep trying to shift the discussion to "ACADEMIC REPUTATION." I made no reference to reputation. Read my comment & you'll see I mentioned the "mission" of the school and its "values." I try to take a more holistic view of the college. I do not live vicariously through HC sports as some might do. Outgrown my student days? Sure, winning is better than losing. But I don't puff up my chest in pride when HC wins or sink to the depths when HC loses. HC success does not validate my existence. IMO A small vocal minority on this board have been pushing for greater emphasis to the detriment of the underlying values which shape HC's policies. The PL, which HC helped to create, mirrors HC's long held commitment to prioritize academic excellence with constraints on athletics. We can all agree to disagree in fellowship and hopefully harmony, no(?) By the way you are correct. Some going all the way back to the '60's believed the NESCAC would be good landing spot for a variety of reasons. Unfortunately, HC was not able to get past the front gate. NESCAC was never a reality. With Respect, mm67 -Athletes are not 'regular' students. The commitment required to be a collegiate varsity student-athlete is 1000x greater than the normal student. An extra semester for some will not obliterate any reputation the school has. If anything it will enhance it. -HC, I'm talking football here, has had plenty of fifth year students over the years. Please name one that has ruined the 'mission' and 'values' of the school. That Peter Oliver kid sure did destroy the underlying values of HC....Come on. -The NESCAC, athletically, is ridiculous. Costs would be the same with 150 people in the stands. Thank goodness they shut the gate.
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Post by timholycross on Oct 9, 2023 9:45:22 GMT -5
These decisions will be made by players, their families, and coaches. I'm not sure the FBS route does much for any of our players in terms of recognition and evaluations by the media and scouts. They are well-known, highly regarded, and likely to have options. For those not considering a professional football opportunity, it would make sense to use the option for graduate school. It is time for HC to slightly adjust its program offerings and use the Fauci Science Center for a one-year graduate program in public health. We need to be better advocates for our health, and understanding the Future of Health would benefit all of us. The world of public and private payer decisions is not improving our health outcomes. I believe the WPI 3-2 is back in place, and HC could offer a 4-1 program for students interested in an advanced degree. Some of the 700-plus student-athletes would stick around for it, but my guess is most would not. The world is changing, and to make a slight adjustment by adding a small graduate program would be a positive move. Concerning the goal of playing for national championships, the FCS and FBS realignment is confusing and will remain for two or three years. Some FCSs will move up, and some FBSs will move to the FCS. Time will tell what conferences exist, how they are structured, and how each mission will be defined. Yes, I'm not sure what the details are, but there's something in place w/WPI and something w/Clark as well, from what I was told by an alum that seemed very connected to the school. Each joint program culminates in a master's degree; what I recall about 3-2 back in the day was it ended up with two bachelors' degrees. For those rightfully concerned with HC's academic reputation, I don't see an engineering (or the like) master's program as anywhere that an athlete will get "hidden", that's for damned sure. More power to any student who can take that kind of load on and play Division 1 sports as well.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Oct 9, 2023 9:56:33 GMT -5
...have been pushing for greater emphasis to the detriment of the underlying values which shape HC's policies. The PL, which HC helped to create, mirrors HC's long held commitment to prioritize academic excellence with constraints on athletics. Quite the leap. I need to see examples of how having a handful of kids doing a fifth year is a detriment to "academic excellence." In fact, couldn't you argue this only enriches one's academic experience as there's an opportunity to either do a double major or minor, which may not have been possible in four years? What do you say to the non-athlete who was floundering academically and was asked to leave the school for a semester or two? Is he / she / they able to return and graduate in five years?
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Post by hcpride on Oct 9, 2023 10:04:30 GMT -5
And if I don't see 5th year seniors at Holy Cross I don't see Holy Cross seriously competeing for a national champioinship so I don't see Chesney at Holy Cross. On a slightly different angle, we lose Sluka, Coker, Dobbs and the offensive line I see a big dropoff in performance next year (even with some 5th years). And with O 5th years the following year.....One thing these up-and-comer coaches know is when you're hot you're hot and when you're not you're not. Sluka and Coker are eligbile to return for a fifth year if they wanted. Wouldn't blame them if they wanted to test the FBS for a year before pursuing the NFL. If the feedback they receive is strong from NFL scouts, they could also be advised to enter the draft now. I see the opportunity for Coker to show his stuff versus FBS (certainly FBS would welcome his quality) but Sluka might be a bit tricky as QB may not be his best shot at NFL.
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Post by dharry13 on Oct 9, 2023 10:07:05 GMT -5
Yah I'm with you SOV. mm67 - I actually do puff my chest with pride when I see HC athletics perform at a high level and compete for PL championships and even higher. It gives me great pride. With that said I won't change your mind on this topic and you won't change mine. The more emphasis on athletics the better for me.
With regard to Next Year and 5th years - over the past three years HC has had in the neighborhood of 10-13 5th years because of COVID. I expect the same next year, we just don't know who those players will be yet. I believe HC now does have the ability to get a graduate degree through WPI no? A Masters in Science?
Sure the idea of losing Coker and Sluka among many is tough, but the torch has to get passed at some point. Hopefully the coaches continue to recruit at a national level with an eye of always advancing as far as they can in the FCS playoffs. I think the current class they are recruiting is that type of class; time will tell.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 9, 2023 10:07:17 GMT -5
mm67, while I agree with you 95%-99% in most things, here we differ. I don't think Bob Chesney, Kit Hughes, Vince Rougeau, myself or almost any Crossporters are looking to subsume academics vis-a-vis football. Peter Oliver is an example and believe he graduated summa cum laude, maybe "only" magna cum laude (a LOT better than I did and probably better than almost all Crossporters even those of us who didn't devote a lot of time practicing and playing football.) Jake Dobbs is a star student and don't believe Matt Sluka is far behind. Our football "stars" are also "stars" in the classroom AND, also leaders doing community work. You dialed a wrong number on this subject. Maybe you haven't heard Coach Chesney say at Holy Cross "you can have it all."
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Post by efg72 on Oct 9, 2023 10:07:59 GMT -5
They would both be fine additions to an FBS team-- my point was they might not need it vs a fifth year at HC--- but then again I am not a scout making the decision.
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Post by mm67 on Oct 9, 2023 10:11:50 GMT -5
efg, 1996, gks all your changes in HC's academics are predicated on benefitting athletics. Sort of putting the cart before the horse? A perverse incentive if ever there was one. Change the nature of the school so that HC no longer is a strictly undergraduate SLA college. Shift class offerings & on, & on. All to benefit athletic performance. Quite frankly, comparing HC to Michigan,Stanford, Duke, BC G-town is absurd. Big schools with size to offer the kind of "courses" which can hide their lower academically performing athletes w/o materially affecting their overall numbers. And,these comparisons revolve around the issue of perceived reputation. However the school's position rests on a deeper foundation, namely HC's underlying values and its mission as a small undergraduate, high academic liberal arts college. So, basically some are saying, change HC for sports so that a group of alums can feel better. Go big so HC can go "big time"? Some might posit going bigger time is a fool's errand. Peace.
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Post by efg72 on Oct 9, 2023 10:19:28 GMT -5
mm67 I tried to stay true to the mission given we are all patients- public health impacts all of us.
Allowing any of the 750 students graduating each year from HC to spend an extra year engaged in community health as well as their own might be a very positive move by the school for the students, the community, and the country.
Future conferences allow the PL or some variation of it to survive and for HC and other like-minded institutions to define their future.
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Post by mm67 on Oct 9, 2023 10:27:18 GMT -5
mm67, while I agree with you 95%-99% in most things, here we differ. I don't think Bob Chesney, Kit Hughes, Vince Rougeau, myself or almost any Crossporters are looking to subsume academics vis-a-vis football. Peter Oliver is an example and believe he graduated summa cum laude, maybe "only" magna cum laude (a LOT better than I did and probably better than almost all Crossporters even those of us who didn't devote a lot of time practicing and playing football.) Jake Dobbs is a star student and don't believe Matt Sluka is far behind. Our football "stars" are also "stars" in the classroom AND, also leaders doing community work. You dialed a wrong number on this subject. Maybe you haven't heard Coach Chesney say at Holy Cross "you can have it all." 1970 I agree. HC's leaders are not devaluing academics for athletics. I'm happy & satisfied with the school's current profile. We're not talking about individual students. We are responding to comments seeking to change the underlying nature of the school It makes no sense for HC to change its academics first posture-its size, solely undergraduate course offerings, policies, etc. to suit athletics. Athletics first is not acceptable. Of course as Coach Chesney often says "you can have it all at HC" The school has true student athletes in a small undergraduate setting and it has worked out well. Thus, there is no need to make underlying changes as some are proposing. Remember, '70 grad you're still a youngster in my eyes. Ha! Mind your elders. With Good Cheer, Class of '67
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Post by hc1996 on Oct 9, 2023 10:35:37 GMT -5
I’m not suggesting we sacrifice academics at all. I recognize how different we are than Gtown, UMich, etc. But I am saying we need to be creative. The Ivies give scholarships but say they don’t. Our other FCS competitors have ways to keep athletes a little longer than we do. What are we going to do so that we remain competitive and capable of achieving our current goals? If we don’t evolve, those goals need to change.
I love the idea of a service year so that we can keep some 5th year players. I have no idea if something like that is allowed by the NCAA, but they need to put pen to paper and start thinking of strategies.
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Post by mm67 on Oct 9, 2023 10:48:36 GMT -5
...have been pushing for greater emphasis to the detriment of the underlying values which shape HC's policies. The PL, which HC helped to create, mirrors HC's long held commitment to prioritize academic excellence with constraints on athletics. Quite the leap. I need to see examples of how having a handful of kids doing a fifth year is a detriment to "academic excellence." In fact, couldn't you argue this only enriches one's academic experience as there's an opportunity to either do a double major or minor, which may not have been possible in four years? What do you say to the non-athlete who was floundering academically and was asked to leave the school for a semester or two? Is he / she / they able to return and graduate in five years? HI, You made an interesting point. So the motivation for changing HC's solely undergraduate profile to offering a "fifth year" is ? In truth isn't the motivation to provide an extra academic year for 5th year student athletes to play for HC? So in effect you are deciding on offering an extra academic year to serve the interests of our teams, no? Philosophically we would be placing academics in service to athletics. Maybe, it doesn't make you uncomfortable but it sure bothers me. We won't decide but your points are stimulating. Peace.
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Post by longsuffering on Oct 9, 2023 11:48:30 GMT -5
These decisions will be made by players, their families, and coaches. I'm not sure the FBS route does much for any of our players in terms of recognition and evaluations by the media and scouts. They are well-known, highly regarded, and likely to have options. For those not considering a professional football opportunity, it would make sense to use the option for graduate school. It is time for HC to slightly adjust its program offerings and use the Fauci Science Center for a one-year graduate program in public health. We need to be better advocates for our health, and understanding the Future of Health would benefit all of us. The world of public and private payer decisions is not improving our health outcomes. I believe the WPI 3-2 is back in place, and HC could offer a 4-1 program for students interested in an advanced degree. Some of the 700-plus student-athletes would stick around for it, but my guess is most would not. The world is changing, and to make a slight adjustment by adding a small graduate program would be a positive move. Concerning the goal of playing for national championships, the FCS and FBS realignment is confusing and will remain for two or three years. Some FCSs will move up, and some FBSs will move to the FCS. Time will tell what conferences exist, how they are structured, and how each mission will be defined. The one year grad program would be a nice way to back into a School of Public Health without a huge donor to finance a major new initiative and then to grow the offerings organically if the market responds to them. Coach to Sr. lineman who didn't play freshman year but is finally coming into his own: What do you think about public health? Lineman: Never thought about it. Coach: Start thinking about it. Public Health, leveraging the connection with the most well known Public Health Official in the country, is an excellent choice for Holy Cross to dip it's toe into graduate studies. Drama, for recent college grads with an acting bug, that leverages the PPAC is another thought.
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Post by cruskater31 on Oct 9, 2023 12:00:39 GMT -5
A couple of notes relevant to the subject at hand. I enjoyed the experience of being on an exclusively undergraduate campus and after working for 3 years at GTown, where undergrads, grad students, and professional students all blended together, I appreciate that.
I am not sure how many of our PL peers convince their student athletes to stick around for an additional fall semester for a Covid 5th year or medical redshirt while pursuing a graduate degree. That being said, Fordham, Lehigh, Bucknell (small program), Georgetown, and Colgate (small program) all offer graduate degrees. HC and Laffy are the only two exclusively undergraduate schools. Talk basketball and the list grows.
The high school I teach at always sends a good crop of students to HC. While I can't divulge too many specifics, I asked a colleague in college advising about what schools those who are applying to HC also apply to. An unofficial list includes in no particular order ND, BC, Harvard, Georgetown, PC, Nova, Dartmouth, and Yale. Looking at our public matriculation lists, I see no Lehigh or Lafayette. We had one Colgate for hoops and one Bucknell for lax. Who we consider peer institutions are not necessarily who are students or prospective students see as peer institutions.
I wouldn't mind expanding the WPI and Clark programs as a middle ground between starting a science grad program or MBA/CPA program (we have a strong econ department).
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 9, 2023 12:04:21 GMT -5
A strong candidate for a fifth year already is our injured frosh running back. He has tremendous talent, as we have already seen and could be even more valuable down the road.
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hc69
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 219
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Post by hc69 on Oct 9, 2023 13:03:09 GMT -5
The 3-2/4-1 model doesn't work. The student does three or four years at HC and and the remaining year(s) at the other school. Let's assume it's 4-1 with WPI. HC agrees to accept transfer credits from WPI and WPI agrees to accept transfer credits from HC. The student gets degrees from both schools. BUT, when the student is doing the fifth year at WPI, that's where he or she is enrolled as a full-time student. During that year the student has not yet graduated from HC but is not enrolled at HC either. So a football player could play that year at WPI but not HC.
And graduate programs take years to set up. We can't decide we want a graduate program in something and have it up and running in a year or two.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 9, 2023 13:11:19 GMT -5
Not so random points.
IIRC, Chesney set the national championship goal as part of MB's strategic plan for athletics. This was pre-Covid. The strategic plan was blessed by the Athletics Committee of the BoT before MB headed for Omaha.
A 3-2 or 4-1 program only works for certain majors. You can't major in psychology at HC, and jump to a masters degree in computer science in your fifth year.
IMO, if Sluka opts for the NFL, he is likely to be thought of like Edelman, who was a college QB.
Re; Harvard and scholarships: For Princeton, starting with the class of 2027, IIRC.
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Post by hc1996 on Oct 9, 2023 13:46:17 GMT -5
Fact: the kids on the Yale football team do not pay for a Yale degree. That is regardless of family income level. I’m sure they have a similar published scale for expected contributions, but it is not followed. Kinda like when Father Brooks got his way and we cut scholarships in the early 90’s. The three football players on my hall did not get scholarships, they got full “grants”.
Again, HC is going to need to be creative in order to keep the goal of winning a national championship.
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hc69
Crusader Century Club
Posts: 219
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Post by hc69 on Oct 9, 2023 13:56:04 GMT -5
And your evidence for this is what?
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Post by hc1996 on Oct 9, 2023 13:59:05 GMT -5
Neighbor’s son played for Yale. Met many people over the years who were connected to the program. It’s really not a secret. Also kind of amusing that people think the Ancient 8 are completely honest.
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Post by gks on Oct 9, 2023 14:01:46 GMT -5
And your empirical evidence for Yale is what? Credible references/sources, please. Also, what experience do you have working in administering or monitoring athletically-related aid at the institution, conference, and/or NCAA level? Ask coaches who play against them. Big reason why they don't play in the FCS playoffs. Too many schools would demand they open their books. Heard many times their equivalencies are way over FBS limits.
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