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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 9, 2023 20:08:11 GMT -5
As for Yale, it was not that long ago that the then President of Yale sought to de-emphasize athletics. yaledailynews.com/blog/2013/10/18/future-of-athletic-recruitment-remains-uncertain/There were some Olympic sports at Yale where the number of recruited athletes on the roster were so few, that coaches sought walk-ons from the student body. ----------------------- Also, the current AD at Yale was formerly the AD at Colgate. Don't you think that she might give a heads-up to ADs and PL football coaches that when it comes to scheduling us, you should know that the number of full rides on our [Yale] football team is triple the number of full rides on your team?
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Post by longsuffering on Oct 9, 2023 20:58:14 GMT -5
Regarding the worry about PL rules and IL advantages holding HC back, it wasn't either of those that caused Sluka to step out of bounds on his brilliant designed run at the end of the BC game. That was centrifugal force.
It wasn't Harvard having 150 scholarship equivalents that caused HC's five turnovers at Polar Park. It could have been all the promotional hoopla that week or undefeated Harvard being darn good this year.
The PL has chipped away at some of the league restrictions during Covid, let's see how the league responds to the end of Covid years. Laffy and GU are exceeding expectations this season, Fordham gave the league another FBS pelt, and the PL is now rated in the middle of the pack among FCS conferences.
The rest of the league must have enjoyed seeing two teams get bids last year and it's possible again this year. Things are looking up.
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Post by hc1996 on Oct 10, 2023 9:10:51 GMT -5
This discussion prompted me to look into whether there has been any IL chatter about athletic scholarships. A high level Google search suggests there has been. Appears as though many people believe that the IL will begin to offer athletic scholarships subsequent to a few yet to be decided legal cases brought forward by IL athletes. Sounds like the Winklevoss twins didn’t get the same grant offers as their football/basketball classmates.
Further, IL athletic scholarships are a big problem for the PL from a recruiting standpoint. Instead of the IL recruiter giving a wink and some hand signals, they can come out and say yes we give scholarships. Not good for us.
HC and the PL need a 5-10 year plan!
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Post by efg72 on Oct 10, 2023 9:24:52 GMT -5
Based on my observations the PL has no plan, at least not a plan that is visible and understood. There is no publicly shared vision for the future, list of options if changes occur in this current realignment environment, leadership plans, etc. If it wasn't such a comfortable league for its members/Presidents, it might have folded years ago due to mismanagement.
Now with that said, it has survived over the years so it does deserve some credit.
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Post by bfoley82 on Oct 10, 2023 11:20:27 GMT -5
No one said that. I did say next year will be different. Do you believe that the only QB who can be successful is a dual threat who played HS lacrosse? Both the players you mention are tryly unique and when they move on there will be a lot of work readjusting for the coaches and their players. The best player in college lacrosse played one year of college football at a D-2 school and ended up drafted by a NFL team...so yea it isn't that tough!
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Post by bfoley82 on Oct 10, 2023 11:28:06 GMT -5
Whataya talking trash about the IL? Of course they are all honest as SCOTUS is stacked with Ivy. Not like the Holy Cross grad on scoutus is honest...
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Oct 10, 2023 11:37:41 GMT -5
Yeah, but the point here is North Dakota is and will continue to operate with advantages over the PL and IL. The problem I’m seeing is we, at least in my opinion, have been operating with a slight advantage over the IL the last few years. That is going away. The Ivies aren’t completely honest about their grant/scholarship situation. HC needs to recognize all of these challenges and do something to address them. I don't think the PL ever had a "slight advantage" over the Ivy League. Scholarships might help us out now with certain individual players but net overall we're never going to out-recruit them in the aggregate.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Oct 10, 2023 11:43:59 GMT -5
Sluka and Coker are eligbile to return for a fifth year if they wanted. Wouldn't blame them if they wanted to test the FBS for a year before pursuing the NFL. If the feedback they receive is strong from NFL scouts, they could also be advised to enter the draft now. I see the opportunity for Coker to show his stuff versus FBS (certainly FBS would welcome his quality) but Sluka might be a bit tricky as QB may not be his best shot at NFL. Sluka currently the #68 ranked QB prospect in 2024 draft class. IMO, I think his best bet is to land a starting gig at an FBS school next year, continue to hone his skills as a passer and try to become a Top 20-25 QB in 2025 class. I think that he'll have a better chance of making the league that way as opposed to trying to re-invent the wheel and become a WR.
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Post by Ignutz on Oct 10, 2023 12:18:10 GMT -5
Whataya talking trash about the IL? Of course they are all honest as SCOTUS is stacked with Ivy. Not like the Holy Cross grad on scoutus is honest... You should restrict your comments re: Scotus members to all of the UNH justices that have been on the Court over the years. And I'm not referring to your esteemed alums serving on the Coos County traffic court.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 10, 2023 12:19:40 GMT -5
Foley, maybe you don't realize that Clarence got his law degree from an Ivy League school. But, you knew that, you just wanted to put your own slant on things and gig Holy Cross again. Wouldn't expect anything different from you but, yes, I include CT in my original comment - he gets no break from me.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 10, 2023 13:21:13 GMT -5
This discussion prompted me to look into whether there has been any IL chatter about athletic scholarships. A high level Google search suggests there has been. Appears as though many people believe that the IL will begin to offer athletic scholarships subsequent to a few yet to be decided legal cases brought forward by IL athletes. Sounds like the Winklevoss twins didn’t get the same grant offers as their football/basketball classmates. Further, IL athletic scholarships are a big problem for the PL from a recruiting standpoint. Instead of the IL recruiter giving a wink and some hand signals, they can come out and say yes we give scholarships. Not good for us. HC and the PL need a 5-10 year plan! You mean this article? www.bestcolleges.com/news/analysis/ivy-league-athletic-scholarships-could-be-imminent/Your deluding yourself if you think any PL school can ever compete with the IL if the IL awarded merit scollies. HC fin aid in fiscal 2022 totaled $71 million. Princeton's financial aid in 2022 totaled $345 million. And the amount Princeton awarded in 2022 did not factor in an $11+ BILLION increase in endowment value in 2021. Princeton distributes five percent of the endowment value annually, so going forward, that $11 billion will result in a future distribution of $550 million (assumes static endowment value going forward). Princeton's net revenue from student tuition and fees in 2022 was $219 million. HC's net revenue from student tuition and fees in 2022 was $146 million. If Holy Cross' endowment increased by $100 million in 2024, and it applied the entire increase to financial aid, the financial aid amount awarded by HC would increase by $4.5 million. (HC's allocation percentage is lower than Princeton's.) If Princeton allocated 40 percent of its $550 million increased endowment distribution to financial aid, EVERYONE matriculating at Princeton would attend for free.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 10, 2023 13:41:18 GMT -5
This discussion prompted me to look into whether there has been any IL chatter about athletic scholarships. A high level Google search suggests there has been. Appears as though many people believe that the IL will begin to offer athletic scholarships subsequent to a few yet to be decided legal cases brought forward by IL athletes. Sounds like the Winklevoss twins didn’t get the same grant offers as their football/basketball classmates. Further, IL athletic scholarships are a big problem for the PL from a recruiting standpoint. Instead of the IL recruiter giving a wink and some hand signals, they can come out and say yes we give scholarships. Not good for us. HC and the PL need a 5-10 year plan! You mean this article? www.bestcolleges.com/news/analysis/ivy-league-athletic-scholarships-could-be-imminent/Your deluding yourself if you think any PL school can ever compete with the IL if the IL awarded merit scollies. HC fin aid in fiscal 2022 totaled $71 million. Princeton's financial aid in 2022 totaled $345 million. And the amount Princeton awarded in 2022 did not factor in an $11+ BILLION increase in endowment value in 2021. Princeton distributes five percent of the endowment value annually, so going forward, that $11 billion will result in a future distribution of $550 million (assumes static endowment value going forward). Princeton's net revenue from student tuition and fees in 2022 was $219 million. HC's net revenue from student tuition and fees in 2022 was $146 million.
If Holy Cross' endowment increased by $100 million in 2024, and it applied the entire increase to financial aid, the financial aid amount awarded by HC would increase by $4.5 million. (HC's allocation percentage is lower than Princeton's.) If Princeton allocated 40 percent of its $550 million increased endowment distribution to financial aid, EVERYONE matriculating at Princeton would attend for free. Something is not adding up for me: Princeton's enrollment is 17,000, more than 5X HC's EDIT: looks like I used a bad source for Princeton’s enrollment number. 8,600 is a good ballpark number
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 10, 2023 13:53:37 GMT -5
You mean this article? www.bestcolleges.com/news/analysis/ivy-league-athletic-scholarships-could-be-imminent/Your deluding yourself if you think any PL school can ever compete with the IL if the IL awarded merit scollies. HC fin aid in fiscal 2022 totaled $71 million. Princeton's financial aid in 2022 totaled $345 million. And the amount Princeton awarded in 2022 did not factor in an $11+ BILLION increase in endowment value in 2021. Princeton distributes five percent of the endowment value annually, so going forward, that $11 billion will result in a future distribution of $550 million (assumes static endowment value going forward). Princeton's net revenue from student tuition and fees in 2022 was $219 million. HC's net revenue from student tuition and fees in 2022 was $146 million.
If Holy Cross' endowment increased by $100 million in 2024, and it applied the entire increase to financial aid, the financial aid amount awarded by HC would increase by $4.5 million. (HC's allocation percentage is lower than Princeton's.) If Princeton allocated 40 percent of its $550 million increased endowment distribution to financial aid, EVERYONE matriculating at Princeton would attend for free. Something is not adding up for me: Princeton's enrollment is 17,000, more than 5X HC's You may have difficulty computing because Princeton is so generous with fin aid, and HC is comparatively stingy. Current Princeton undergraduates with a family income of $100,000 or less, attend for free. Those with a family income between $100,000 and $150,000 pay peanuts. IIRC, one can still receive fin aid from Princeton if one's family income is $300,000.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 10, 2023 13:57:49 GMT -5
Also, Princeton's total enrollment is about 8,600, not 17,000.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 10, 2023 14:01:14 GMT -5
Something is not adding up for me: Princeton's enrollment is 17,000, more than 5X HC's You may have difficulty computing because Princeton is so generous with fin aid, and HC is comparatively stingy. Current Princeton undergraduates with a family income of $100,000 or less, attend for free. Those with a family income between $100,000 and $150,000 pay peanuts. IIRC, one can still receive fin aid from Princeton if one's family income is $300,000. As I’ve written before, HYP are on a different financial aid universe. And it is very difficult for an HC person (or even a non-HYP person) to grasp that.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 10, 2023 14:24:55 GMT -5
You may have difficulty computing because Princeton is so generous with fin aid, and HC is comparatively stingy. Current Princeton undergraduates with a family income of $100,000 or less, attend for free. Those with a family income between $100,000 and $150,000 pay peanuts. IIRC, one can still receive fin aid from Princeton if one's family income is $300,000. As I’ve written before, HYP are on a different financial aid universe. And it is very difficult for an HC person (or even a non-HYP person) to grasp that. And when you consider that HC has the second highest endowment per student among all Catholic colleges and universities in the U.S. (Notre Dame is first.) This issue is highly distorted because there are about a dozen schools, Notre Dame being one, where athletics are truly a business with substantial net revenue. Notre Dame's football program in 2022 yielded a 'profit' of $76 million, more than enough to pay for HC's entire athletic program twice-over. BC's total generated revenue for women's hoops was $346,000, less than 10 percent of the total expenses for that program.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 10, 2023 14:27:14 GMT -5
I don't begin to understand college finances like some here....just that anecdotally it seems like something has changed with Ivy financial aid to prospective football recruits that didn't exist in the 1980s. Knew a bunch of guys then who were offered by various Ivies but chose HC mainly due to the full athletic scholarship they were offered as opposed to the financial aid the Ivies were offering then. Maybe some chose HC due to its football success and playing Army, BC etc as well but I'm fairly certain the full athletic scholarship from HC was the deal signer for most then.
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Post by hc1996 on Oct 10, 2023 14:46:31 GMT -5
Yup. The IL laughed at the PL going non-scholarship and adjusted their “grant” practices to increase the divide between the PL and IL.
The differentiator for the IL will always be their academic reputation. We will never be able to directly compete with that and that is fine. But if we want to try to beat them on some key recruits, we need better facilities, better OOC games, and some flexibility with regard to fifth years.
The new facilities are awesome. An upgrade to Fitton in the concession area would draw more fans. It’s a complete disaster now. Playing UConn, BC, Army, Syracuse really helps. No idea how to solve the fifth year problem but that needs to happen.
HC is a great school with a rich athletics history. I think it’s a choice if we want to continue to grow and succeed. There are some limitations being a small liberal arts school, but some smart people can figure this out for the longer term.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 10, 2023 15:22:05 GMT -5
Also, Princeton's total enrollment is about 8,600, not 17,000. Data USA , a site on which I will not rely again, had the approx 17,000 number I used. Further exploration leads to other sites all of which are right around your 8,600 number. Thanks for the correction and I will edit my post
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Post by hcpride on Oct 10, 2023 15:51:30 GMT -5
I don't begin to understand college finances like some here....just that anecdotally it seems like something has changed with Ivy financial aid to prospective football recruits that didn't exist in the 1980s. Knew a bunch of guys then who were offered by various Ivies but chose HC mainly due to the full athletic scholarship they were offered as opposed to the financial aid the Ivies were offering then. Maybe some chose HC due to its football success and playing Army, BC etc as well but I'm fairly certain the full athletic scholarship from HC was the deal signer for most then. HYP was not particularly generous with financial aid (that has massively changed) in the 1980's. Loans, one small example, were a part of HYP financial aid in the 1980's. The break athletes got in the 1980's was that they received grants instead of loans (hence the old term 'grants in aid' ) as part of their financial aid. So, athletes were treated differently (financial aid grants v financial aid loans) within the same financial aid calculations. And full or nearly full financial aid was rare for athletes and non-athletes alike. (as you note) Now HYP financial aid is a billion times more generous than it once was. One small example, loans are now verboten. So athletes and non-athletes are treated identically in a system where full or nearly full financial aid grants are common.
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Post by hc1996 on Oct 10, 2023 16:04:27 GMT -5
The difference is, and I understand it to be true for the entire IL, athletes receive full grants regardless of family income level.
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Post by longsuffering on Oct 10, 2023 16:19:50 GMT -5
The IL has an advantage with Bucket "A" of quality FCS prospects while the PL has an advantage with Bucket "B".
Bucket "A" is the kids who academically qualify for admission to the IL, PL and every other FCS school. Bucket "B" is the kids who qualify for the PL and most other FCS schools but not the Ivies. Which Bucket is bigger? Include kids who are tweeners between FCS and G5 and ultimately go with an FCS school.
It's not like the motivated PL coaching staffs, more of whom who are presumably working their way up the coaching ladder than their IL peers where more assistant coaches are likely in a terminal position and pleased with their sinecure on an Ivy campus, don't have a Bucket to work and work hard.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 10, 2023 17:48:21 GMT -5
I don't begin to understand college finances like some here....just that anecdotally it seems like something has changed with Ivy financial aid to prospective football recruits that didn't exist in the 1980s. Knew a bunch of guys then who were offered by various Ivies but chose HC mainly due to the full athletic scholarship they were offered as opposed to the financial aid the Ivies were offering then. Maybe some chose HC due to its football success and playing Army, BC etc as well but I'm fairly certain the full athletic scholarship from HC was the deal signer for most then. A series of court cases in the early 1990s changed the landscape on financial aid for the IL, and other most selective schools. For an overview of the legal disputes, and Congress stepping in, see: news.mit.edu/1992/history-0903^^^ I thought Georgetown may have been a party, but it apparently wasn't. 22 of the 23 colleges and universities are listed in the overview. I am not going to look for the identity of the 23rd. Wesleyan is not listed.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 10, 2023 18:00:42 GMT -5
The difference is, and I understand it to be true for the entire IL, athletes receive full grants regardless of family income level. Other than your anecdotal story about a neighbor, the IL does not offer full grants. If the IL awarded full grants for football (and ice hockey) there would be significant Title IX implications, and law suits by female athletes. ------------------------------------------- Princeton was sanctioned by the IL because a 'booster' helped pay for a very good tennis player to attend Princeton. See: paw.princeton.edu/article/princeton-censured-major-ncaa-violation-womens-tennis-0Also,
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Post by hc1996 on Oct 10, 2023 19:08:03 GMT -5
The IL offers full grants. The IL benefits from the rest of the world looking up to them and trusting that they are the standard by which all others should be measured. They take advantage of the system. They have the resources to impact decisions. C’mon man.
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