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Post by jkh67 on Dec 8, 2023 8:44:42 GMT -5
Not to sound like a State Farm commercial but Harvard and to a lesser extent Yale have played us consistently in football through thick and thin when they were up and we were down (with the Yale exception at the end of Gilmore’s tenure when they backed out of an agreed home and home when their turn to come to Fitton). I miss Dartmouth as we played them every year for eons (yes, that’s exaggeration). You are the company you keep. I like playing Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth, even Brown. They are local and games are usually competitive. I also like playing UNH, URI, UConn, UMass and FBS teams like BC, Army, Navy but Syracuse not so much. I think the football schedule the last few years has really been close to perfect. I know some would like to see the various Dakota teams, especially SDSU, and Sac State. They’re never coming to Fitton. Basketball, we need to upgrade the schedule as we improve. GU and St. John’s would be great in 2-3 years when we are more likely to be going full throttle. BC should be every year regardless of how we or they are doing. Tradition. This could be one of those seminal moments that we've been talking about re: what we really want to be moving forward........Do we want to be a Villanova-esque solid 1-AA/Mid-major, or D-3 ?? Which is it gonna be ?? This decision, and the urgency in which its implemented from Kit and Vince will tell us a lot I vote for the "Villanova-esque" model, as I'm sure we all do, but I expect we'll continue with the existing PL model. And why not from the administration's standpoint? Based on most of what I read, student support for HC sports has been mediocre at best for decades now and I'm not aware of any serious alumni resistance to the PL model. So what incentive do TPTB have to change that model? Their attitude is almost certain to be "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 8, 2023 11:11:59 GMT -5
The incentive would be to avoid taking our all sport won loss record over the past 10-20 years and try to compete at a higher level. You have to work your way up.
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Post by jkh67 on Dec 8, 2023 11:30:02 GMT -5
The incentive would be to avoid taking our all sport won loss record over the past 10-20 years and try to compete at a higher level. You have to work your way up. I hear you, but I fear the administration won't see enhancing the school's athletic profile (especially in football and basketball) as an important mission for HC as an educational institution first and foremost. My guess is that, if our sports program can be competitive in the PL and do reasonably well against comparable OOC schools, TPTB will be satisfied. You can argue that more emphasis on athletics can make HC a better school overall, but I doubt that argument will be persuasive if only because it's hard to prove that it's actually true.
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Post by purplehaze on Dec 8, 2023 11:38:15 GMT -5
'if our program can be competitive in the PL' - haven't seen that in a very long time - complete shutout of our fall sports, not qualifying for a single league playoff berth (when in many sports more than half make the postseason)
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Post by cruskater31 on Dec 8, 2023 11:46:59 GMT -5
'if our program can be competitive in the PL' - haven't seen that in a very long time - complete shutout of our fall sports, not qualifying for a single league playoff berth (when in many sports more than half make the postseason) Football might be our only hope
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Post by 78purple on Dec 8, 2023 11:49:44 GMT -5
'if our program can be competitive in the PL' - haven't seen that in a very long time - complete shutout of our fall sports, not qualifying for a single league playoff berth (when in many sports more than half make the postseason) Football might be our only hope Football and Women's BB are the only programs with a winning record.....Am I wrong about that ??
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Post by drjack on Dec 8, 2023 11:50:39 GMT -5
'if our program can be competitive in the PL' - haven't seen that in a very long time - complete shutout of our fall sports, not qualifying for a single league playoff berth (when in many sports more than half make the postseason) Football might be our only hope Reason # 426 why this hire is so important. It's the only thing keeping us relevant right now. And to those that bemoan the attendance and fan support (mostly justified don't get me wrong), it's still vastly superior to when I was at HC aside from basketball games during my freshmen year of 07-08. Sure, we had better student support and engagement way back when, but I'd rather be a student at HC now than during my time.
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Post by mm67 on Dec 8, 2023 12:16:13 GMT -5
All is ancient history but overall Dartmouth leads in the series with HC. Actually, not too long ago, at Fitton, I saw Dartmouth kick HC's butt with Peter Pujols the QB. Given HC's recent record with other Ivies, Harvard & Yale, I doubt the Dartmouth Athletics Department believes it has anything to fear. I plead guilty to allowing my experience of the Dartmouth game cloud my judgement. It was a big competitive game. Certainly, the '80's- '90's was a glorious aberration but clearly not indicative of HC football. (Duffner's 60+ wins w/less than 10 losses is not the norm for HC football.)Regardless of our personal experience in college, the Dartmouth game was a long term series. Would like to see it renewed. No doubt the game would be competitive. Also, as someone recently reminded me, you are known by the company you keep. One question: Are any Dartmouth's OOC opponents football scholarship teams?
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Post by 78purple on Dec 8, 2023 12:19:05 GMT -5
All is ancient history but overall Dartmouth leads in the series with HC. Actually, not too long ago, at Fitton, I saw Dartmouth kick HC's butt with Peter Pujols the QB. Given HC's recent record with other Ivies, Harvard & Yale, I doubt the Dartmouth Athletics Department believes it has anything to fear. I plead guilty to allowing my experience of the Dartmouth game cloud my judgement. It was a big competitive game. Certainly, the '80's- '90's was a glorious aberration but clearly not indicative of HC football. (Duffner's 60+ wins w/less than 10 losses is not the norm for HC football.)Regardless of our personal experience in college, the Dartmouth game was a long term series. Would like to see it renewed. No doubt the game would be competitive. Also, as someone recently reminded me, you are known by the company you keep. One question: Are any Dartmouth's OOC opponents football scholarship teams? UNH ?
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Post by hc87 on Dec 8, 2023 12:35:29 GMT -5
The Dartmouth-HC game was always big in our home as my Dad did his medical residency at the Mary Hitchcock Hospital in Hanover. He became a big Dartmouth fan (except when we played them of course). I don't remember it but lived there for the first couple years of my life and we often returned for HC games played there as kids. It's such a great, Fall football setting....I too hope the series is renewed at some point.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 8, 2023 13:31:39 GMT -5
Football might be our only hope Football and Women's BB are the only programs with a winning record.....Am I wrong about that ?? Men's hockey 8-7-2. Not a lock but a definite contender for the league championship and auto-bid. "Many are cold but few are frozen"🙂 but in D-1 hockey as in FCS, the odds are better for a small college like HC due to a smaller pool of teams. WBB is currently 4-4.
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Post by 78purple on Dec 8, 2023 13:46:01 GMT -5
Football and Women's BB are the only programs with a winning record.....Am I wrong about that ?? Men's hockey 8-7-2. Not a lock but a definite contender for the league championship and auto-bid. "Many are cold but few are frozen"🙂 but in D-1 hockey as in FCS, the odds are better for a small college like HC due to a smaller pool of teams. WBB is currently 4-4. Thank you.....I must have been thinking last year
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 8, 2023 14:12:10 GMT -5
Men's hockey 8-7-2. Not a lock but a definite contender for the league championship and auto-bid. "Many are cold but few are frozen"🙂 but in D-1 hockey as in FCS, the odds are better for a small college like HC due to a smaller pool of teams. WBB is currently 4-4. Thank you.....I must have been thinking last year Two league champions and NCAA tournament participants (FB and WBB) last year. The good news is we now have three teams (FB, WBB, MH) that even if they yield no championships this academic year, they are all bona-fide contenders. Progress is being made.
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Wayne
Sophomore
Posts: 28
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Post by Wayne on Dec 8, 2023 14:14:37 GMT -5
All is ancient history but overall Dartmouth leads in the series with HC. Actually, not too long ago, at Fitton, I saw Dartmouth kick HC's butt with Peter Pujols the QB. Given HC's recent record with other Ivies, Harvard & Yale, I doubt the Dartmouth Athletics Department believes it has anything to fear. I plead guilty to allowing my experience of the Dartmouth game cloud my judgement. It was a big competitive game. Certainly, the '80's- '90's was a glorious aberration but clearly not indicative of HC football. (Duffner's 60+ wins w/less than 10 losses is not the norm for HC football.)Regardless of our personal experience in college, the Dartmouth game was a long term series. Would like to see it renewed. No doubt the game would be competitive. Also, as someone recently reminded me, you are known by the company you keep. One question: Are any Dartmouth's OOC opponents football scholarship teams? Over the next five years, Dartmouth has games scheduled with UNH (x3), Army, Fordham (x2), and Towson
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 8, 2023 14:17:37 GMT -5
The Dartmouth-HC game was always big in our home as my Dad did his medical residency at the Mary Hitchcock Hospital in Hanover. He became a big Dartmouth fan (except when we played them of course). I don't remember it but lived there for the first couple years of my life and we often returned for HC games played there as kids. It's such a great, Fall football setting....I too hope the series is renewed at some point. Drove up one year when the foliage was peaking and stopped for dinner at the New London Inn on the way home. Delightful. Since OOC games are played early it's a great time of year to play a team from Northern New England.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 8, 2023 14:28:59 GMT -5
The good news is I think the concept of HC going D-3 is a red herring. I can't imagine any trustee not coming to the realization that being one of the few D-1 national liberal arts schools is our "in" to attract students we otherwise wouldn't and we don't have to gerrymander our way into a higher division while having lower division facilities and heritage (no offense Stonehill and welcome to D-1🙂) because we have always been D-1, have sunk money in D-1 facilities, are in a league with supportive compatriots, and do not want the embarrassing retreat to D-3 that UHartford experienced.
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Post by jkh67 on Dec 8, 2023 14:41:52 GMT -5
All is ancient history but overall Dartmouth leads in the series with HC. Actually, not too long ago, at Fitton, I saw Dartmouth kick HC's butt with Peter Pujols the QB. Given HC's recent record with other Ivies, Harvard & Yale, I doubt the Dartmouth Athletics Department believes it has anything to fear. I plead guilty to allowing my experience of the Dartmouth game cloud my judgement. It was a big competitive game. Certainly, the '80's- '90's was a glorious aberration but clearly not indicative of HC football. (Duffner's 60+ wins w/less than 10 losses is not the norm for HC football.)Regardless of our personal experience in college, the Dartmouth game was a long term series. Would like to see it renewed. No doubt the game would be competitive. Also, as someone recently reminded me, you are known by the company you keep. One question: Are any Dartmouth's OOC opponents football scholarship teams? Over the next five years, Dartmouth has games scheduled with UNH (x3), Army, Fordham (x2), and Towson If Dartmouth's playing Fordham twice in the next five years, we should be pushing big time for a revival of the series. I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't schedule us if we show enough interest.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 8, 2023 14:46:42 GMT -5
Crossports is too funny. Get upset when longstanding series with Harvard and now Dartmouth get disrupted. But also, let's drop the Ivies because the FCS NCAA committee. I think we have to pick one or the other.
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Post by jkh67 on Dec 8, 2023 14:47:59 GMT -5
The good news is I think the concept of HC going D-3 is a red herring. I can't imagine any trustee not coming to the realization that being one of the few D-1 national liberal arts schools is our "in" to attract students we otherwise wouldn't and we don't have to gerrymander our way into a higher division while having lower division facilities and heritage (no offense Stonehill and welcome to D-1🙂) because we have always been D-1, have sunk money in D-1 facilities, are in a league with supportive compatriots, and do not want the embarrassing retreat to D-3 that UHartford experienced. Yes, D-3 is a red herring. As I said in an earlier note, the choice is between staying on our present PL-based course or aiming higher...whatever "higher" might turn out to mean. There's no doubt in my mind that we will stay in the PL. What we should be doing is trying to make the PL more attractive to schools like Villanova, W&M, and Richmond (and maybe UNH, URI, and Maine) at least for football.
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Post by drjack on Dec 8, 2023 14:49:10 GMT -5
Crossports is too funny. Get upset when longstanding series with Harvard and now Dartmouth get disrupted. But also, let's drop the Ivies because the FCS NCAA committee. I think we have to pick one or the other. Pretty sure those are two different groups making each point, which is pretty standard for online communities. I think it's also a generational thing here where the folks who were around during the heydey of the rivalries are the ones wanting it to continue and the younger crowd wants to play more FCS relevant opponents.
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Post by jkh67 on Dec 8, 2023 14:53:15 GMT -5
'if our program can be competitive in the PL' - haven't seen that in a very long time - complete shutout of our fall sports, not qualifying for a single league playoff berth (when in many sports more than half make the postseason) When I talk about being competitive in the PL, I only have the sports that attract attention...to wit, football and basketball...in mind. The others are what they are and don't really matter except to the students who play them and their families. We've clearly show what we can do on the gridiron. Basketball needs lots of work, but I believe we'll get there in time.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 8, 2023 14:56:35 GMT -5
All is ancient history but overall Dartmouth leads in the series with HC. Actually, not too long ago, at Fitton, I saw Dartmouth kick HC's butt with Peter Pujols the QB. Given HC's recent record with other Ivies, Harvard & Yale, I doubt the Dartmouth Athletics Department believes it has anything to fear. I plead guilty to allowing my experience of the Dartmouth game cloud my judgement. It was a big competitive game. Certainly, the '80's- '90's was a glorious aberration but clearly not indicative of HC football. (Duffner's 60+ wins w/less than 10 losses is not the norm for HC football.)Regardless of our personal experience in college, the Dartmouth game was a long term series. Would like to see it renewed. No doubt the game would be competitive. Also, as someone recently reminded me, you are known by the company you keep. One question: Are any Dartmouth's OOC opponents football scholarship teams? I was at that game in 2016. Was Homecoming. That was actually the game where Peter got hurt. In 2017 with PP back as a 5th year, the heartbreaking OT loss on the blocked PAT in Hanover was basically the beginning of the end for Gilmore. We were ranked heading into that game, having lost a close game at UCONN and destroyed Top 10 UNH in Worcester.
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Post by trimster on Dec 8, 2023 15:04:49 GMT -5
The good news is I think the concept of HC going D-3 is a red herring. I can't imagine any trustee not coming to the realization that being one of the few D-1 national liberal arts schools is our "in" to attract students we otherwise wouldn't and we don't have to gerrymander our way into a higher division while having lower division facilities and heritage (no offense Stonehill and welcome to D-1🙂) because we have always been D-1, have sunk money in D-1 facilities, are in a league with supportive compatriots, and do not want the embarrassing retreat to D-3 that UHartford experienced. Yes, D-3 is a red herring. As I said in an earlier note, the choice is between staying on than the average PL schoolour present PL-based course or aiming higher...whatever "higher" might turn out to mean. There's no doubt in my mind that we will stay in the PL. What we should be doing is trying to make the PL more attractive to schools like Villanova, W&M, and Richmond (and maybe UNH, URI, and Maine) at least for football. I couldn't agree more. I don't see HC leaving the PL as disappointing as it's been from a purely athletic standpoint, so adding schools that are more competitive athletically and would raise the bar of the PL, would be my answer. Obviously convincing them to come onboard might be an issue. Do we really need the AI for example. I don't think HC admitting students who clearly didn't belong before the advent of the PL, was ever an issue and I am very confident it wouldn't become one without the AI. This business of "we have no place to hide student athletes" is hogwash. When was HC ever in that business? Also, if we are going to be judged by the company we keep, how should we feel about being in a basketball conference that in some rating services, is dead last as of today. Numero 32. How does that square with trying to excel in everything we do?
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Post by rgs318 on Dec 8, 2023 15:24:34 GMT -5
Yes, it is a down year for PL men's hoops. Does losing to "better" teams mean HC is trying to excel? Yes, today the PL is rated low but I have not seen them as last in any ratings. I am in the raise the PL bar camp. Try actively to bring some better programs into the stability of the PL.
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Post by longsuffering on Dec 8, 2023 15:30:39 GMT -5
Yes, D-3 is a red herring. As I said in an earlier note, the choice is between staying on than the average PL schoolour present PL-based course or aiming higher...whatever "higher" might turn out to mean. There's no doubt in my mind that we will stay in the PL. What we should be doing is trying to make the PL more attractive to schools like Villanova, W&M, and Richmond (and maybe UNH, URI, and Maine) at least for football. I couldn't agree more. I don't see HC leaving the PL as disappointing as it's been from a purely athletic standpoint, so adding schools that are more competitive athletically and would raise the bar of the PL, would be my answer. Obviously convincing them to come onboard might be an issue. Do we really need the AI for example. I don't think HC admitting students who clearly didn't belong before the advent of the PL, was ever an issue and I am very confident it wouldn't become one without the AI. This business of "we have no place to hide student athletes" is hogwash. When was HC ever in that business? Also, if we are going to be judged by the company we keep, how should we feel about being in a basketball conference that in some rating services, is dead last as of today. Numero 32. How does that square with trying to excel in everything we do? The inconvenient truth is if HC MBB leaves the PL the league would zoom up to #29-30 or so. I can imagine a couple of other leagues considering taking us but none that would waive the entrance fee or waiting period for the auto-bid and those leagues wouldn't necessarily give HC a prestige or significant competitive boost over the PL. And we'd go from a founding partner to a carpet bagger.🤕
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