|
|
Post by longsuffering on Dec 31, 2023 18:45:07 GMT -5
I have put Osmanski for Promuto Matt Sluka was great, but the PL was not what Osmanski, Morris, Fenerty or Lockbaum faced. Gordie was a Heisman finalist two times. Fenerty and Lockbaum were both at HC while we were I-AA. And I think Sluka overall played just as difficult a schedule. Ivies better now than they were in the late 1980s. Matt also almost beat BC. None of the Lockbaum era teams sniffed a competitive game against the Eagles, even in the friendly confines of Fitton. Granted BC was a much better team then than in 2023. 2 things I'd love to go into a time machine and see: 1) HC-BC rivalry last one more year and we play in 1987. 2) Sluka stays in bounds. The immaculate (11-0-0, 1st in 1-AA ranking at the end of the regular season) 1987 team got royally screwed with no access to either the playoffs or an HC-BC game. |
|
|
|
Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 31, 2023 18:49:22 GMT -5
Fenerty and Lockbaum were both at HC while we were I-AA. And I think Sluka overall played just as difficult a schedule. Ivies better now than they were in the late 1980s. Matt also almost beat BC. None of the Lockbaum era teams sniffed a competitive game against the Eagles, even in the friendly confines of Fitton. Granted BC was a much better team then than in 2023. 2 things I'd love to go into a time machine and see: 1) HC-BC rivalry last one more year and we play in 1987. 2) Sluka stays in bounds. The immaculate (11-0-0, 1st in 1-AA ranking at the end of the regular season) 1987 team got royally screwed with no access to either the playoffs or an HC-BC game. And we were still ranked #1 AFTER the I-AA playoffs finished. The national champion (Louisiana-Monroe?) was ranked behind Holy Cross. |
|
|
|
Post by hc87 on Dec 31, 2023 18:52:44 GMT -5
The 87 team was getting "also receiving votes" in the 1-A polls during the end of that season.
|
|
|
|
Post by hcpride on Dec 31, 2023 19:00:48 GMT -5
To the extent it matters, Fenerty graduated before we moved down to CL/PL. Lockbaum’s two big years were when we were in CL/PL. Fenerty played at Holy Cross from 1983-1985, our first three years in I-AA. While we weren't in the Colonial League yet, it's not like we were playing Syracuse and Penn State. The SOS was negligibly different, if at all, compared to what Sluka played against. Fenerty's all-time rushing performance came against big, bad Columbia who was in the midst of losing like 50 games in a row. Not suggesting we were playing and losing to Penn State and Syracuse immediately before moving down to face the CL/PL teams. FWIW we moved down to 1-AA a year before Fenerty began playing for us. Interestingly Columbia tied future Patriot League member 😊 Bucknell the week before we throttled them and the week before that Columbia beat Yale. Soooo, we started them on that horrible losing streak. |
|
|
|
Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 31, 2023 19:16:44 GMT -5
Fenerty played at Holy Cross from 1983-1985, our first three years in I-AA. While we weren't in the Colonial League yet, it's not like we were playing Syracuse and Penn State. The SOS was negligibly different, if at all, compared to what Sluka played against. Fenerty's all-time rushing performance came against big, bad Columbia who was in the midst of losing like 50 games in a row. Not suggesting we were playing and losing to Penn State and Syracuse immediately before moving down to face the CL/PL teams. FWIW we moved down to 1-AA a year before Fenerty began playing for us. Interestingly Columbia tied future Patriot League member 😊 Bucknell the week before we throttled them and the week before that Columbia beat Yale. Soooo, we started them on that horrible losing streak. I know, but the Chesney era has caused a lot of Patriot League derangement syndrome on this board. Just trying to give Sluka his due. Saying he doesn't deserve to be as highly regarded as Fenerty and Gordie because he played against "lesser competition" is like saying today that Sluka wouldn't be that good if he played in the CAA. Guy led us to 2 FBS wins, almost led us to victory at BC and ran for 200 yards against the FCS national champ. |
|
|
|
Post by rgs318 on Dec 31, 2023 19:47:07 GMT -5
Tragedy plus time equals comedy...with some time I hope you will be able to rethink that feeling about BC games.
|
|
|
|
Post by longsuffering on Dec 31, 2023 21:32:50 GMT -5
Tragedy plus time equals comedy...with some time I hope you will be able to rethink that feeling about BC games. Most of us don't have enough time left to outlive the '23 BC tragedy.🙂 |
|
|
|
Post by timholycross on Dec 31, 2023 22:09:41 GMT -5
The longer someone's out, the harder it is to fairly judge their worthiness for such an honor.
How many of us saw Bob Dee play for the Patriots, for example, let alone Holy Cross? Never mind the other three gentlemen mentioned in the same thread as he.
Finding this to be the case for a Hall of Fame that got established for my high school. The people making the decisions don't have 10% of the sense of history that a lot of the board members here have.
|
|
|
|
Post by hc17 on Dec 31, 2023 22:30:29 GMT -5
George Connor probably warrants consideration? Folks will knock that he ended up transferring, but he is one of the best
|
|
|
|
Post by KY Crusader 75 on Dec 31, 2023 22:43:38 GMT -5
If Teddy Roosevelt had moved to Canada and become prime minister there would you have wanted him on Mt Rushmore?
|
|
|
|
Post by hc17 on Dec 31, 2023 23:01:09 GMT -5
Right, but I’d argue that he had legit reasons…post war, father was ill at the time, etc
|
|
|
|
Post by hcpride on Dec 31, 2023 23:08:43 GMT -5
George Connor probably warrants consideration? Folks will knock that he ended up transferring, but he is one of the best Assuming ROH (and Mount Rushmore) is based strictly on accomplishments at Holy Cross, his one-time selection as a 2nd Team All-America during his two years at Holy Cross may not measure up. Three years after leaving Holy Cross he was spectacular for two years at Notre Dame and then spectacular in the pros. If we count post-Holy Cross talent and achievements (and we do not) than NFL players like Kalif Raymond would be edging close to ROH. |
|
|
|
Post by HC92 on Jan 1, 2024 0:49:45 GMT -5
Hard to include players who don’t graduate from HC in the HC football ROH. I’m sure Connor had good reasons for transferring but can’t see it.
|
|
|
|
Post by td128 on Jan 1, 2024 5:33:11 GMT -5
In regard the legends from earlier eras, the Holy Cross Ring of Honor Committee at inception did in fact engage then living alumni who were in attendance and had eye witness recollections of Crusaders who graced the gridiron in the 1930s, '40s and forward. The color provided was fabulous. Additionally, these individuals were aware of and provided additional insights of the greatness of Crusaders from prior eras.
In point of fact, George Connor was inducted into the Holy Cross Ring of Honor in 2011: goholycross.com/honors/hall-of-fame/george-l-connor/48
CLASS 1946
INDUCTION 1974
SPORT(S) Football, Men's Basketball
George Connor played just two years for the Crusaders, but made a major impact as one of the program's best linemen ever.
He earned All-East honors as a freshman in 1942, when he helped lead Holy Cross to a 55-12 upset victory over previously-unbeaten and top-ranked Boston College in the season finale. As a sophomore in 1943, Connor then received first team All-America honors and won the Bulger Lowe Trophy, given to the most outstanding football player in New England.
He joined the United States Navy following his sophomore year, and would go on to conclude his collegiate career at the University of Notre Dame after the end of World War II. Connor was a two-time All-American for the Irish, while leading the team to an overall record of 17-0-1 and a pair of national championships. He also won the 1946 Outland Trophy as the top interior lineman in college football.
Connor then played eight seasons for the Chicago Bears of the National Football League from 1948-1955, and was named to the All-NFL team at three different positions ' offensive tackle, defensive tackle and linebacker. In 1952 and 1953, he was named all-league on both the offensive and defensive teams by different wire services.
Connor was inducted into the Holy Cross Varsity Club Hall of Fame in 1974, the College Foot-ball Hall of Fame in 1963, the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 1975 and the Crusader Football Legends Ring of Honor in 2011.
Happy New Year gentlemen. Let's make 2024 "another Great Year to be a Crusader"
LET'S WIN!!
|
|
|
|
Post by hcpride on Jan 1, 2024 6:38:44 GMT -5
/\ /\ That’s interesting, his Wikipedia only notes “He played two years of college football at Holy Cross and was a second-team All-America selection by the Associated Press in 1943.” for his HC time. (Turns out that the AP [an official NCAA selector] named him as a 2nd Teamer in 1943 but The New York Sun [not an official NCAA selector] did name him as a 1st Teamer that year. Wikipedia sheds some light on the difference: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1943_College_Football_All-America_Team#Consensus_All-Americans) Also interesting that so much of the Holy Cross HOF/ROH bio references his post- HC achievements. In 1946 and 1947 (Notre Dame) he was a consensus 1st Team All- American (with AP and several other official selectors designating him for the 1st Team) Whether post-HC accolades aided his ROH entry (2011) is another matter, I guess. The (more selective) Mount Rushmore committee will have to decide if post-HC achievement is relevant. I’m thinking no, and thus Connor falls short. |
|
|
|
Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 1, 2024 9:22:54 GMT -5
George Connor retained some association with HC after leaving as he attended HC Club of Chicago get togethers when I lived there
|
|
|
|
Post by mm67 on Jan 1, 2024 9:49:39 GMT -5
ROH for portal transfer players out prior to graduation? ROH for players who graduated? Of course, none this would apply to head coaches such as
Dr. Eddie.
|
|
|
|
Post by hcnation on Jan 1, 2024 10:03:33 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by rgs318 on Jan 1, 2024 10:04:48 GMT -5
Well, Eddie Anderson did return, didn't he?
|
|
|
|
Post by hcpride on Jan 1, 2024 10:16:20 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by thecrossisback on Jan 1, 2024 10:22:26 GMT -5
Connor is in the college football and pro football Hall of Fame. Of course he should be in the ring of honor. #53 |
|
|
|
Post by td128 on Jan 1, 2024 10:43:27 GMT -5
I just stoked the fire again. So go 'warm' your drinks up as we take a walk down memory lane.
Here is a fascinating article on the world of college football in the 1940s with much that appears very similar to current developments regarding NIL and the transfer portal. Here are a few passages that provide specific color pertinent to our current 'hot stove' discussion.
The writer addresses below the manner in which a number of football factories including ND under legendary coach Frank Leahy built their teams post World War II and brought our Crusader George Connor from Worcester to South Bend in the process.
Let's Talk About Frank Leahy Navigating WWII & Building a College Football Dynasty: www.onefootdown.com/2015/4/22/8374451/lets-talk-about-frank-leahy-navigating-wwii-building-a-college
The time period immediately after WWII has been described as a Wild West era of college football. The GI Bill made it easier than ever for people to attend college, transfer rules were virtually unrestricted, and of course the country had all these grizzled war veterans coming back from war and looking to play football. Even better, schools began to aggressively recruit like never before.
The most infamous of such incidents was of Shorty McWilliams, a running back who finished 10th in the Heisman voting of 1944 at Miss State before moving to West Point and finishing 8th in the Heisman voting for 1945. After the war McWilliams wanted to transfer back to Starkville but the Army leaders were like...
The Army got wind of their star player being coaxed financially and tried to play hard ball and block the transfer.
So what did McWilliams do? His former Mississippi State coaches protested loudly in the media before the Army finally relented to his release. McWilliams was *rumored* to have received $15,000 in cash, a new car, a job paying $300 per month, plus an additional $300 per month just for good measure.
It was like Cam Newton before Cam Newton. Except it paid off (hey-o!) for Mississippi State back then.
The actions and whining of the Big Ten during this era--actions not entirely unfamiliar to modern ears--was to protest the recruiting, scholarships, and rise of television broadcasts in the name of saving amateur athletics and ethics. They even stomped their feet and threatened to break away from the NCAA. This led, a few years down the road, to the formation of the "Sanity Code" whose principles...
...concerned adherence to the definition of amateurism, holding student-athletes to the same sound academic standards as the student body, awarding financial aid without consideration for athletics ability and a policy of recruiting that basically prohibited a coach or anyone representing a member school from recruiting any prospective student-athlete with the offer of financial aid or equivalent inducement.
Immediately, the SEC and Notre Dame--citing the Big Ten's hypocrisy--knew this was a load of crap. Still, the NCAA formed a compliance committee to review cases and move forward with punishments. This effort would eventually fall apart as the committee's only form of punishment was termination from the NCAA and after a while it became clear that they'd never get the two-thirds vote required to do so on any cases. This led to the official sanctioning of full athletic scholarships by the NCAA in the 50's which also included the re-formation of the infractions committee into the form we still see (barely) breathing today.
I made fun of Leahy recruiting while away during the war effort but there is some hyperbole involved on that front as he basically limited himself to acquiring two key players for 1946. There isn't much hyperbole involved when people discuss the 1946 Irish recruiting class as one of the best in college football history.
When Notre Dame prepared for the season over 150 players took the field for tryouts. That number wasn't abnormal for the era but the amount of talent certainly was, even for Irish standards. History has passed down to us that Leahy suggested at least one player (if not a few more) head to the NFL where the odds were better to play in the era of one-platoon football.
9 players came back from the 1942 team, 10 were back from the 1943 team, and a combined 22 players were back from the two non-Leahy coached war teams. Added to this were 20 new recruits. The cream of the crop from those new recruits were: George Strohmyer, Emil Sitko, Jim Martin, Leon Hart . . .
And Our Crusader:
George Connor- His priest uncle was the president of the alumni association at Holy Cross and pulled at Connor to attend the college in Worcester, Massachusetts. He did in 1942 and made the all-Eastern team and was a part of the upset of No. 1 Boston College--one of the most shocking wins in football history. Mysteriously ordered to transfer to Notre Dame by his senior commander of the Holy Cross V-12 program, but Connor refused and stayed in Worcester, making All-American in 1943. When he was called up to fight Connor met Frank Leahy at Pearl Harbor and agreed to transfer to Notre Dame after the war.
|
|
|
|
Post by hchoops on Jan 1, 2024 11:17:55 GMT -5
Connor should not be on HC’s Mt. Rushmore.
|
|
|
|
Post by longsuffering on Jan 1, 2024 11:57:00 GMT -5
There are 33 baseball players enshrined in Cooperstown who served in WW2 including Joe DiMaggio, Ted Williams, Hank Greenberg, Ralph Kiner, Bob Feller and Yogi Berra. For Holy Cross stars like Connor and Bill Swiaki who served their country in wartime, I give them more understanding consideration than a portal jockey in the current era. Any modern day grad transfers should not have their HC contributions discounted in any way of course.
|
|
|
|
Post by rgs318 on Jan 1, 2024 11:59:32 GMT -5
Of course, having graduated from Holy Cross, they really are not "transfers" at all so that is different.
|
|
