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Post by CHC8485 on Aug 12, 2024 10:22:55 GMT -5
OK, efg, so where does the 3rd buy game come from?
Go to 3 buy games and you're down to 7 other OOC games (or no MTE) meaning some years you will only have 3 non-conference home games. I think 4 is exceedingly low considering that the non-conference season runs 2 months from the beginning of November to the end of December - all during the grind of the final 5 weeks of the semester. And I don't think 3 buy game vs. 2 makes the players and particularly fans that much more excited about the season.
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Post by Tom on Aug 12, 2024 11:02:43 GMT -5
OK, efg, so where does the 3rd buy game come from? Go to 3 buy games and you're down to 7 other OOC games (or no MTE) meaning some years you will only have 3 non-conference home games. I think 4 is exceedingly low considering that the non-conference season runs 2 months from the beginning of November to the end of December - all during the grind of the final 5 weeks of the semester. And I don't think 3 buy game vs. 2 makes the players and particularly fans that much more excited about the season. First of all chem majors sometimes need help with math If you start with 2 and then add 2, that equals 4 not 3  That leaves 6 other OOC and presumably 3 home games every year not just some years 3 buy games is where we are this year with 7 OOC. With 5 contracts, HC opted for 2 home every year opponents from D-III to get to your exceedingly low 4 Perhaps the 3rd game could come from the group of Wisconsin/URI/Virginia Although it was not my intention, I think I just kicked off "Pick On Bob Day" |
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Post by CHC8485 on Aug 12, 2024 11:43:51 GMT -5
Sorry - missed the TWO buy games in efg's post.
But it makes the point that much sharper. HC would have 3 home games every year in that scenario. Not a schedule I would be excited about.
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You all may now resume your regular picking on a poster of your choice (usually bfoley82) day.
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Post by bison137 on Aug 12, 2024 12:57:03 GMT -5
I don’t think some of the math above adds up. Bucknell always plays three buy games, and it always plays a minimum of four D1 home games. However, there are two factors not incorporated in some of the above analysis:
1. One of the three games in every MTE in which they have played is a P6 team, and they get a paycheck for playing that game. Occasionally, there have even been two P6 teams.
2. In a number of the three game MTEs, they have played, in addition to playing a P6 team, for which they got a paycheck, they also played one home game and one road game.
Thus, the schedule might look like
One buy game as part of an MTE
Two other buy games
One home game as part of an MTE
Three other home games
One road game as part of an MTE
Three other road games
Two other discretionary games.
With that framework, Bucknell has never had less than four D1 home games and sometimes has five. The home games have included home and home series with Richmond, LaSalle, and Saint Bonaventure. Also some home games against MAC teams, and a series with Vermont, where Vermont played twice in Sojka while Bucknell only traveled to Vermont once.
This season’s OOC schedule has four buy games, and also five good home games plus a semi-home game in Wilkes Barre’s Mohegan Sun Arena.
MON NOV 4 at DELAWARE
THU NOV 7 at SOUTHERN INDIANA
SAT NOV 9 at KENTUCKY
WED NOV 13 home vs. MOUNT ST. MARY'S
SAT NOV 16 home vs. RICHMOND
THU NOV 21 home vs. NJIT
SAT NOV 23 home vs. RIDER
WED NOV 27 at MARYLAND
SAT NOV 30 vs. SIENA at Mohegan Arena, Wilkes-Barre
WED DEC 4 home vs. ST. BONAVENTURE
SUN DEC 8 at RADFORD
SAT DEC 21 at GONZAGA
SAT DEC 28 at SYRACUSE
Might be a bit ambitious, but Griffin likes it that way. It seemed to help last year, as the team got a lot better later in the season. It will also put a lot of money into the bank.
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Post by efg72 on Aug 12, 2024 13:03:47 GMT -5
I don’t think some of the math above adds up. Bucknell always plays three buy games, and it always plays a minimum of four D1 home games. However, there are two factors not incorporated in some of the above analysis: 1. One of the three games in every MTE in which they have played is a P6 team, and they get a paycheck for playing that game. Occasionally, there have even been two P6 teams. 2. In a number of the three game MTEs, they have played, in addition to playing a P6 team, for which they got a paycheck, they also played one home game and one road game. Thus, the schedule might look like One buy game as part of an MTE Two other buy games One home game as part of an MTE Three other home games One road game as part of an MTE Three other road games Two other discretionary games. With that framework, Bucknell has never had less than four D1 home games and sometimes has five. The home games have included home and home series with Richmond, LaSalle, and Saint Bonaventure. Also some home games against MAC teams, and a series with Vermont, where Vermont played twice in Sojka while Bucknell only traveled to Vermont once. This season’s OOC schedule has four buy games, and also five good home games plus a semi-home game in Wilkes Barre’s Mohegan Sun Arena. MON NOV 4 at DELAWARE THU NOV 7 at SOUTHERN INDIANA SAT NOV 9 at KENTUCKY WED NOV 13 home vs. MOUNT ST. MARY'S SAT NOV 16 home vs. RICHMOND THU NOV 21 home vs. NJIT SAT NOV 23 home vs. RIDER WED NOV 27 at MARYLAND SAT NOV 30 vs. SIENA at Mohegan Arena, Wilkes-Barre WED DEC 4 home vs. ST. BONAVENTURE SUN DEC 8 at RADFORD SAT DEC 21 at GONZAGA SAT DEC 28 at SYRACUSE Might be a bit ambitious, but Griffin likes it that way. It seemed to help last year, as the team got a lot better later in the season. It will also put a lot of money into the bank. Exactly-- and in addition to your observation, it helps the recruiting and retention of players. We need to play a few regional teams but we also need to think bigger- imho. I am willing to accept the two D3-- sort of-- if this is the last year we have any on the schedule. Not sure if this is determined by the Athletic Department or only by the basketball program? |
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Post by CHC8485 on Aug 12, 2024 13:17:59 GMT -5
True bison on MTEs that involve a P6 team.
But there are many like HC has played in the last couple of years including this year's at Brown that have 3 games at the host site. That is the model I am using.
If you go to a MTE that gives you a home game AND a pay day, I'm on board with that, in addition to the challenge such as Bucknell is taking on this year. In fact, in 5 of the last 6 years, when able to schedule an MTE (COVID years was just the PL Schedule) Holy Cross has not gotten a home game out of the MTEs in which they have participated.
Why we have only participated in only 1 MTE that gives us a home game in the last 6 season when we have been able to schedule an MTE is beyond me.
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Post by sader1970 on Aug 12, 2024 14:08:44 GMT -5
Don't recall if this has been posted yet but according to URI, HC is playing the Rams at their place on 11/8. They also play Fairfield in their first game on 11/4. They play Lafayette on 11/20, Yale on 12/2; Providence on 12/7, all at home. They play Brown at Brown on 12/10.
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Post by rf1 on Aug 12, 2024 15:05:43 GMT -5
Don't recall if this has been posted yet but according to URI, HC is playing the Rams at their place on 11/8. They also play Fairfield in their first game on 11/4. They play Lafayette on 11/20, Yale on 12/2; Providence on 12/7, all at home. They play Brown at Brown on 12/10. URI released its non conference schedule today. Probably the weakest slate in the last 35 plus years. Somewhat expected as the program is at the lowest point it has been in that span coming off four straight losing seasons. Rhody will for the second consecutive year host a non D1 school as Franklin Pierce will make the trip to Kingston. It used to be a rarity that URI scheduled non D1 programs. Not anymore for Rhody or much of the rest of the A-10 as a majority of its members are doing this for the upcoming season. URI will play two games in a MTE in Jacksonville, FL. The other participants are yet to be announced but they are not expected to be high profile teams. Breaking with the past, the Rams will not face a single high profile FBS school. It's only opponent from a high rated conference will be the visit of PC to the Ryan Center. URI will play just twelve OOC games with eight in Kingston, three neutral site (two in Jacksonville MTE and vs Temple in Springfield, MA), and one true road game at Brown. x.com/RhodyMBB/status/1822996663398527396 |
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Post by Tom on Aug 12, 2024 15:20:20 GMT -5
Don't recall if this has been posted yet but according to URI, HC is playing the Rams at their place on 11/8. They also play Fairfield in their first game on 11/4. They play Lafayette on 11/20, Yale on 12/2; Providence on 12/7, all at home. They play Brown at Brown on 12/10. URI released its non conference schedule today. Probably the weakest slate in the last 35 plus years. Somewhat expected as the program is at the lowest point it has been in that span coming off four straight losing seasons. Rhody will for the second consecutive year host a non D1 school as Franklin Pierce will make the trip to Kingston. It used to be a rarity that URI scheduled non D1 programs. Not anymore for Rhody or much of the rest of the A-10 as a majority of its members are doing this for the upcoming season. URI will play two games in a MTE in Jacksonville, FL. The other participants are yet to be announced but they are not expected to be high profile teams. Breaking with the past, the Rams will not face a single high profile FBS school. It's only opponent from a high rated conference will be the visit of PC to the Ryan Center. URI will play just twelve OOC games with eight in Kingston, three neutral site (two in Jacksonville MTE and vs Temple in Springfield, MA), and one true road game at Brown. x.com/RhodyMBB/status/1822996663398527396One very traditional road game from the not power conference A-10. URI isn't exactly a basketball hot bed. I ASSUME the guarantee money for HC is much less than Wisconsin or Virginia. However, if you only have 2 home and homes, adding D-II Franklin Pierce can help the budget a little bit. Looking at 3 random OOC games from last year, URI averaged a little under 4000. This isn't Duke packing Cameron where there's so much on the table at every home game, it's worth it to pay someone 80K (or whatever the big time going rate is) to not have to play that road game |
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Post by bfoley82 on Aug 12, 2024 15:24:12 GMT -5
URI released its non conference schedule today. Probably the weakest slate in the last 35 plus years. Somewhat expected as the program is at the lowest point it has been in that span coming off four straight losing seasons. Rhody will for the second consecutive year host a non D1 school as Franklin Pierce will make the trip to Kingston. It used to be a rarity that URI scheduled non D1 programs. Not anymore for Rhody or much of the rest of the A-10 as a majority of its members are doing this for the upcoming season. URI will play two games in a MTE in Jacksonville, FL. The other participants are yet to be announced but they are not expected to be high profile teams. Breaking with the past, the Rams will not face a single high profile FBS school. It's only opponent from a high rated conference will be the visit of PC to the Ryan Center. URI will play just twelve OOC games with eight in Kingston, three neutral site (two in Jacksonville MTE and vs Temple in Springfield, MA), and one true road game at Brown. x.com/RhodyMBB/status/1822996663398527396One very traditional road game from the not power conference A-10. URI isn't exactly a basketball hot bed. I ASSUME the guarantee money for HC is much less than Wisconsin or Virginia. However, if you only have 2 home and homes, adding D-II Franklin Pierce can help the budget a little bit. Looking at 3 random OOC games from last year, URI averaged a little under 4000. This isn't Duke packing Cameron where there's so much on the table at every home game, it's worth it to pay someone 80K (or whatever the big time going rate is) to not have to play that road game The Ryan Center also cost 54 million to build...have they made their money back? |
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Post by rf1 on Aug 12, 2024 15:48:07 GMT -5
One very traditional road game from the not power conference A-10. URI isn't exactly a basketball hot bed. I ASSUME the guarantee money for HC is much less than Wisconsin or Virginia. However, if you only have 2 home and homes, adding D-II Franklin Pierce can help the budget a little bit. Looking at 3 random OOC games from last year, URI averaged a little under 4000. This isn't Duke packing Cameron where there's so much on the table at every home game, it's worth it to pay someone 80K (or whatever the big time going rate is) to not have to play that road game The Ryan Center also cost 54 million to build...have they made their money back? It has probably brought in far more revenue than the Luth Center build and Hart Center renovation that was nearly double the cost at $95M. Last season was the second lowest average attendance in the 20 plus year history of the Ryan Center. In its life, the venue has averaged over 5k for men's basketball games in the 7,657 seat capacity building. |
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 12, 2024 20:42:10 GMT -5
I see URI (A-10, and as rf1 said, a good following that has averaged over 5K attendance) and Bucknell (PL but more recent success than HC) as being more attractive opponents than HC for the payer group of schools.
How would people present Holy Cross MBB as an attractive opponent to get paying schools to choose us over teams like Bucknell and URI?
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Post by bison137 on Aug 12, 2024 22:08:35 GMT -5
I see URI (A-10, and as rf1 said, a good following that has averaged over 5K attendance) and Bucknell (PL but more recent success than HC) as being more attractive opponents than HC for the payer group of schools. How would people present Holy Cross MBB as an attractive opponent to get paying schools to choose us over teams like Bucknell and URI? i’m not not sure Bucknell’s success has much to do with it. The last good season they had was 2018–19, after which Nathan Davis destroyed the program. In any event, here is a sample of PL teams that haven’t had as much success over the last 15 years as Bucknell. None of them seem to have had much trouble finding multiple guarantee games. I think it is more a function of how badly teams want to play these games and how much energy they put into getting it done. 2023-24: American - Villanova, Georgetown, and Virginia Tech. Lehigh- Penn State, UNC, Providence, and Boston College. Loyola - Florida, Missouri, and three A10 schools. 2022-23: Loyola - Clemson, DePaul, Penn State Lehigh - Syracuse, Wisconsin, VA Tech Lafayette - Miami, Penn State, St John’s, and several A10 teams. |
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 12, 2024 22:26:47 GMT -5
I see URI (A-10, and as rf1 said, a good following that has averaged over 5K attendance) and Bucknell (PL but more recent success than HC) as being more attractive opponents than HC for the payer group of schools. How would people present Holy Cross MBB as an attractive opponent to get paying schools to choose us over teams like Bucknell and URI? i’m not not sure Bucknell’s success has much to do with it. The last good season they had was 2018–19, after which Nathan Davis destroyed the program. In any event, here is a sample of PL teams that haven’t had as much success over the last 15 years as Bucknell. None of them seem to have had much trouble finding multiple guarantee games. I think it is more a function of how badly teams want to play these games and how much energy they put into getting it done. 2023-24: American - Villanova, Georgetown, and Virginia Tech. Lehigh- Penn State, UNC, Providence, and Boston College. Loyola - Florida, Missouri, and three A10 schools. 2022-23: Loyola - Clemson, DePaul, Penn State Lehigh - Syracuse, Wisconsin, VA Tech Lafayette - Miami, Penn State, St John’s, and several A10 teams. You've proved your point. I suppose it is legitimate for an HC head coach to decide his team needs guaranteed wins more than guaranteed losses while they try to climb back to .500, as uninspiring as that is to fans. Perhaps the ADs at the schools you listed made buy games more of an imperative than HC's ADs, who have all been relatively new during their tenure since Dick Reagn left. |
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Post by bigfan on Aug 13, 2024 7:17:47 GMT -5
This home schedule is not good. We need to bring in better opponents
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Post by Tom on Aug 13, 2024 8:16:43 GMT -5
I see URI (A-10, and as rf1 said, a good following that has averaged over 5K attendance) and Bucknell (PL but more recent success than HC) as being more attractive opponents than HC for the payer group of schools. How would people present Holy Cross MBB as an attractive opponent to get paying schools to choose us over teams like Bucknell and URI? URI is buying, not selling. They only have one true OOC road game this season, and I don't think Brown is paying a guarantee |
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Post by Tom on Aug 13, 2024 8:35:28 GMT -5
This home schedule is not good. We need to bring in better opponents It's a tough balance act. We want big names which means guarantee games, which by definition are on the road with no return game. Between 3 guarantees and an MTE that only leaves seven games. 5 contracts in place for home and home - with only 2 of those at Hart this year. Playing name opponents means detracting from your home schedule either by quantity or quality (if you choose to boost the number by hosting lower division schools that you never have to travel to). Do you trade Virginia, Wisconsin, and the two D-III's for four home and homes to get the same number of home games, but all against D-I opponents? There could be a strategic component. The recent results have been pretty bad. Over the last 5 seasons, I can count the D-I OOC wins on one hand. Perhaps Coach Paulsen and his staff see a value in getting a cheap win just so the guys don't get too down. I'm not saying that is the case - just that might be a motivating factor |
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Post by sader1970 on Aug 13, 2024 10:14:45 GMT -5
Out of fidelity to Holy Cross in general, and Holy Cross men's basketball specifically, I will be renewing my season tickets. I might be holding my nose when I do that but also appreciate having a "home" game at URI Ryan Center  and suggest for those who feel very strongly about the weak schedule that you 1. write to Dave Paulsen (maybe copy Kit Hughes, though unless he changed things from his predecessors, the coach makes up 90%-95% of the schedule) 2. Non-renew your season tickets (if you feel that strongly about it) 3. Stop supporting men's basketball CAF (but donate to another program - women's basketball?) But posting stuff on Crossports is very unlikely to change things. |
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Post by jaredcurry on Aug 13, 2024 11:43:20 GMT -5
This home schedule is not good. We need to bring in better opponents No we don’t, we need (D1) wins…but I hear you…these kids do not need an 1-9/10/11 record going into league play. In that situation it is basically impossible to turn a season around. |
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Post by bison137 on Aug 13, 2024 11:52:34 GMT -5
This home schedule is not good. We need to bring in better opponents It's a tough balance act. We want big names which means guarantee games, which by definition are on the road with no return game. Between 3 guarantees and an MTE that only leaves seven games. 5 contracts in place for home and home - with only 2 of those at Hart this year. Playing name opponents means detracting from your home schedule either by quantity or quality (if you choose to boost the number by hosting lower division schools that you never have to travel to). Do you trade Virginia, Wisconsin, and the two D-III's for four home and homes to get the same number of home games, but all against D-I opponents? There could be a strategic component. The recent results have been pretty bad. Over the last 5 seasons, I can count the D-I OOC wins on one hand. Perhaps Coach Paulsen and his staff see a value in getting a cheap win just so the guys don't get too down. I'm not saying that is the case - just that might be a motivating factor It only leaves seven games because that is how HC has chosen to approach it. However, as I pointed out before, it is not at all difficult to play one of your guarantee games as part of an MTE - which would leave them with three guarantee games plus at least four D1 home games. For example, in recent years, Bucknell has played the following as part of three or four game MTEs: providence Michigan Vanderbilt/Butler Maryland TCU/UNLV/URI - in Hawaii. Syracuse Georgia Duke Maryland Bucknell got a significant check for playing each of these games. |
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 13, 2024 12:43:46 GMT -5
Out of fidelity to Holy Cross in general, and Holy Cross men's basketball specifically, I will be renewing my season tickets. I might be holding my nose when I do that but also appreciate having a "home" game at URI Ryan Center and suggest for those who feel very strongly about the weak schedule that you 1. write to Dave Paulsen (maybe copy Kit Hughes, though unless he changed things from his predecessors, the coach makes up 90%-95% of the schedule) 2. Non-renew your season tickets (if you feel that strongly about it) 3. Stop supporting men's basketball CAF (but donate to another program - women's basketball?) But posting stuff on Crossports is very unlikely to change things. No, but you learn things from the discussion. We just had insight from a former player on how the early season w/l record effects the the team heading into league play and we learned from Bison and rf1 how other mid major peers approach the OOC schedule. Enlightening. |
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Post by trimster on Aug 13, 2024 12:58:52 GMT -5
Out of fidelity to Holy Cross in general, and Holy Cross men's basketball specifically, I will be renewing my season tickets. I might be holding my nose when I do that but also appreciate having a "home" game at URI Ryan Center and suggest for those who feel very strongly about the weak schedule that you 1. write to Dave Paulsen (maybe copy Kit Hughes, though unless he changed things from his predecessors, the coach makes up 90%-95% of the schedule) 2. Non-renew your season tickets (if you feel that strongly about it) 3. Stop supporting men's basketball CAF (but donate to another program - women's basketball?) But posting stuff on Crossports is very unlikely to change things. I feel the same as you do. I certainly will not be renewing my season tickets based on the quality of the opponents; as you stated, it will be due to loyalty to the program. |
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Post by Tom on Aug 13, 2024 13:00:06 GMT -5
It's a tough balance act. We want big names which means guarantee games, which by definition are on the road with no return game. Between 3 guarantees and an MTE that only leaves seven games. 5 contracts in place for home and home - with only 2 of those at Hart this year. Playing name opponents means detracting from your home schedule either by quantity or quality (if you choose to boost the number by hosting lower division schools that you never have to travel to). Do you trade Virginia, Wisconsin, and the two D-III's for four home and homes to get the same number of home games, but all against D-I opponents? There could be a strategic component. The recent results have been pretty bad. Over the last 5 seasons, I can count the D-I OOC wins on one hand. Perhaps Coach Paulsen and his staff see a value in getting a cheap win just so the guys don't get too down. I'm not saying that is the case - just that might be a motivating factor It only leaves seven games because that is how HC has chosen to approach it. However, as I pointed out before, it is not at all difficult to play one of your guarantee games as part of an MTE - which would leave them with three guarantee games plus at least four D1 home games. For example, in recent years, Bucknell has played the following as part of three or four game MTEs: providence Michigan Vanderbilt/Butler Maryland TCU/UNLV/URI - in Hawaii. Syracuse Georgia Duke Maryland Bucknell got a significant check for playing each of these games. Your point is taken. However, my gut suggests those games are harder to find. Just taking a quick look at the New England power conference schedules from last year, nothing is identified as an MTE. I know HC played at Michigan a few years ago as part of something primarily at Mohegan Sun. I assume that every power conference team hosts multiple guarantee games so they don't have to play an actual road game out of conference. Maybe the schools I looked at don't highlight that portion of an MTE, but I doubt that every power conference school pays an MTE with a home guarantee. I figure there are 6 or so guarantee games for ever power conference school. I also figure hosting a guarantee game as part of an MTE is something a school does once a year at most - and since not all schools do it, the average is less than one per power conference school. In short, there are way more opportunities for a conventional; guarantee game than an MTE guarantee. game. Bucknell has proven you can find them, but I just gotta think it's easier said than done |
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Post by HC92 on Aug 28, 2024 13:46:45 GMT -5
Notre Dame released its OOC schedule today. Only home OOC games are Stonehill, Buffalo, North Dakota, Elon, Dartmouth and LeMoyne. That reads like an HC home OOC schedule. They are playing in a good MTE with Alabama, Houston and Rutgers and have road games at Georgia and Georgetown.
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Post by purplehaze on Aug 29, 2024 8:17:08 GMT -5
Any guesses how much ND pays those cupcakes for visiting South bend ? It’s been a long time since the bad blood between us and ND because of the Kearney firing - we should get on their schedule next year
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That leaves 6 other OOC and presumably 3 home games every year not just some years
and suggest for those who feel very strongly about the weak schedule that you