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Post by hcpride on May 17, 2024 8:04:45 GMT -5
Good read from our friend LFN. Would UNH have joined in all sports or just football? My recollection was the discussion at the time was more about UNH and Maine coming in for football. This was in the wake of Hofstra and Northeastern dropping the sport and URI announcing intent to relegate to the NEC. Before Albany and Stony Brook were added, and URI reversed course on the NEC, UNH and Maine would have ended on a remote geographic island for CAA Football. The other thing I can't remember is if these conversations all took place before or after scholarships were announced. I would assume after. UNH would have become a member of the Patriot League in all sports. Yes, and I think this section illustrates the relative difficulties of meeting Patriot League AI and redshirt rules while running competitive programs: The inability to redshirt was seen as a huge detriment to New Hampshire's competitiveness on the field - much more so than the Academic Index.
"We had to crunch the Academic Index for months," Scarano told me, "Interestingly enough, the kids we admit would have not been impacted by the academic index. We are admitting kids that fit our academic index just as Lehigh gets theirs, and Colgate gets theirs.
"But one of the really hard obstacles we ran into was redshirting."That might explain why the Richmond press conference hit the red shirt issue really hard and the AI was no issue at all.
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Post by longsuffering on May 17, 2024 8:14:18 GMT -5
UNH would have become a member of the Patriot League in all sports. Yes, and I think this section illustrates the relative difficulties of meeting Patriot League AI and redshirt rules while running competitive programs: The inability to redshirt was seen as a huge detriment to New Hampshire's competitiveness on the field - much more so than the Academic Index.
"We had to crunch the Academic Index for months," Scarano told me, "Interestingly enough, the kids we admit would have not been impacted by the academic index. We are admitting kids that fit our academic index just as Lehigh gets theirs, and Colgate gets theirs.
"But one of the really hard obstacles we ran into was redshirting."That might explain why the Richmond press conference hit the red shirt issue really hard and the AI was no issue at all. Amazing for the PL that it picked up a school in UR that's a plus academically and athletically. All under the cover of darkness throughout the FCS world. There wasn't a peep of rumor about this move that I have seen referenced, perhaps because the PL wasn't perceived as being able to pull off an acquisition this good. Once it was announced, people can see the synergy.
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Post by hc1996 on May 17, 2024 8:22:48 GMT -5
Has the PL officially removed the redshirt restrictions??
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Post by nycrusader2010 on May 17, 2024 8:24:32 GMT -5
Has the PL officially removed the redshirt restrictions?? Yes
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Post by hcpride on May 17, 2024 8:30:01 GMT -5
Yes, and I think this section illustrates the relative difficulties of meeting Patriot League AI and redshirt rules while running competitive programs: The inability to redshirt was seen as a huge detriment to New Hampshire's competitiveness on the field - much more so than the Academic Index.
"We had to crunch the Academic Index for months," Scarano told me, "Interestingly enough, the kids we admit would have not been impacted by the academic index. We are admitting kids that fit our academic index just as Lehigh gets theirs, and Colgate gets theirs.
"But one of the really hard obstacles we ran into was redshirting."That might explain why the Richmond press conference hit the red shirt issue really hard and the AI was no issue at all. Amazing for the PL that it picked up a school in UR that's a plus academically and athletically. All under the cover of darkness throughout the FCS world. There wasn't a peep of rumor about this move that I have seen referenced, perhaps because the PL wasn't perceived as being able to pull off an acquisition this good. Once it was announced, people can see the synergy. Yes, the first media report I saw was May 9 suggesting serious Richmond dissatisfaction with CAA — and PL and SoCon as potential football landings spots for Richmond. (With SoCon potentially requiring a very unlikely all-sports commitment.) I’d imagine things were a lot further along than that.
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Post by hc6774 on May 17, 2024 8:42:56 GMT -5
Has the PL officially removed the redshirt restrictions?? Yes just football?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 17, 2024 9:07:37 GMT -5
Below are proxy values for gauging a school's school-wide AI score. The AI is based on individual standardized test scores and GPA. The proxy values are SAT composite score percentages for the enrolling class, and the percentage of the enrolling class ranked in the top quarter of their high school class. The latter substitutes for GPA as many schools do not report average GPA for enrolling students. Most school's values are for the class of 2027, Schools whose SAT composite scores do not total 99-100 percent enrolled students with SAT composite scores that are below 1000. For Richmond, Fordham, and GU, as football-only schools, the average AI score of all rostered freshmen football players should be within one standard deviation of their school's school-wide score. The other schools can use A! scores of athletes on other teams to offset A! scores of athletes that are below one standard deviation. Value | Colgate | Richmond | Georgetown | Lehigh | Lafayette | Holy Cross | Bucknell | Fordham | Cornell | SAT Composite 1400-1600 - % | 81 | 86 | 78 | 65 | 53 | 29 | 17 | 52 | 95 | SAT Composite 1200-1399 -% | 17 | 13 | 16 | 33 | 47 | 59 | 52 | 45 | 5 | SAT Composite 1000-1199 - % | 2 | 1 | 5 | 1 | 1 | 10 | 29 | 2 |
| Top quarter of the H. S. class - % | 94 | 83 | 95 | 85 | 78 | 69 | 86 | 75 | 94.5 |
Roughly grouped, Colgate, Richmond, and Georgetown likely have similar school-wide AI scores; Lehigh, Lafayette, and Fordham likely have similar school-wide A! scores. Bucknell and Holy Cross likely have similar school-wide AI scores. Cornell is included as a comparative reference. Cornell is thought to have the lowest school-wide AI score of any Ivy school. Based on these values, I don't think the AI should be a particular problem for Richmond, absent a one standard deviation that is compressed. This also presumes that the use of bands for football (and for basketball in the PL) have been abandoned in at least the PL, Bands restricted the enrolling of other than a small number of athletes with low AI scores. All recruited athletes must have an AI score above the floor, which is a score of 168 for the PL.
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Post by hc1996 on May 17, 2024 9:25:44 GMT -5
That's eye opening data. I didn't realize HC was such an outlier amongst our "peers". Has HC's data been consistent over the years or is this representative of more lax admissions criteria for athletes in recent years?
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Post by 78purple on May 17, 2024 9:30:37 GMT -5
Would love to see Richmond in PL Bball. An upgrade in faculties to view a game for sure. The facilities ( UR vs HC ) are not close, trust me
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Post by efg72 on May 17, 2024 9:36:56 GMT -5
If I read this correctly, it looks like our full applicant pool attracts slightly different students than the PL group. By the numbers, I am not sure I would characterize them as part of our peer group.
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Post by Ignutz on May 17, 2024 9:41:28 GMT -5
Below are proxy values for gauging a school's school-wide AI score. The AI is based on individual standardized test scores and GPA. The proxy values are SAT composite score percentages for the enrolling class, and the percentage of the enrolling class ranked in the top quarter of their high school class. The latter substitutes for GPA as many schools do not report average GPA for enrolling students. Most school's values are for the class of 2027, Schools whose SAT composite scores do not total 99-100 percent enrolled students with SAT composite scores that are below 1000. For Richmond, Fordham, and GU, as football-only schools, the average AI score of all rostered freshmen football players should be within one standard deviation of their school's school-wide score. The other schools can use A! scores of athletes on other teams to offset A! scores of athletes that are below one standard deviation. Value | Colgate | Richmond | Georgetown | Lehigh | Lafayette | Holy Cross | Bucknell | Fordham | Cornell | SAT Composite 1400-1600 - % | 81 | 86 | 78 | 65 | 53 | 29 | 17 | 52 | 95 | SAT Composite 1200-1399 -% | 17 | 13 | 16 | 33 | 47 | 59 | 52 | 45 | 5 | SAT Composite 1000-1199 - % | 2 | 1 | 5 | 1 | 1 | 10 | 29 | 2 |
| Top quarter of the H. S. class - % | 94 | 83 | 95 | 85 | 78 | 69 | 86 | 75 | 94.5 |
Roughly grouped, Colgate, Richmond, and Georgetown likely have similar school-wide AI scores; Lehigh, Lafayette, and Fordham likely have similar school-wide A! scores. Bucknell and Holy Cross likely have similar school-wide AI scores. Cornell is included as a comparative reference. Cornell is thought to have the lowest school-wide AI score of any Ivy school. Based on these values, I don't think the AI should be a particular problem for Richmond, absent a one standard deviation that is compressed. This also presumes that the use of bands for football (and for basketball in the PL) have been abandoned in at least the PL, Bands restricted the enrolling of other than a small number of athletes with low AI scores. All recruited athletes must have an AI score above the floor, which is a score of 168 for the PL. To me, the most confusing thing about these numbers is that we haven't required SAT scores for many years, so I would assume that only HS students with high scores would bother to submit them. Am I recalling correctly that there's been some noise re: ending that practice? Have some/many/all of the other listed schools also made SAT score submission optional over the years?
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 17, 2024 9:50:58 GMT -5
I find the percentage of HC students in the top quarter of the class--69%- hard to believe.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 17, 2024 9:54:45 GMT -5
I'm replying to Ignatz.
Schools can and do access the SAT scores of all applying students. This was revealed, at least to me, by the study that Dartmouth did before recently re-instating standardized test scores. Students who did not submit standardized test scores and were rejected would have been admitted if they had submitted the scores. The school would have considered the score in the context of the student's economic / social circumstances, and admitted him/her.
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Post by gks on May 17, 2024 10:00:43 GMT -5
I'm replying to Ignatz. Schools can and do access the SAT scores of all applying students. This was revealed, at least to me, by the study that Dartmouth did before recently re-instating standardized test scores. Students who did not submit standardized test scores and were rejected would have been admitted if they had submitted the scores. The school would have considered the score in the context of the student's economic / social circumstances, and admitted him/her. Wait a minute... So all these schools saying they were SAT or ACT optional really weren't? They were using them as admissions criteria even though they said they weren't? If so that's a scumbag move.
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Post by 78purple on May 17, 2024 10:05:15 GMT -5
I don't know if it was offered, but a little surprised Richmond came our way and not to the SoCon. My hunch is that they believe Nova is right behind them in joining our ranks. Curious what the breakdown of undergrads at U of R percentage-wise is from the Northeast...anecdotally knowing friends&family who attended there, I bet it's a fairly high percentage. 14% per below site which provides following breakdown for class of 2027: 15% VIRGINIA 28% MID-ATLANTIC 14% NEW ENGLAND 19% SOUTH 6% MIDWEST 5% WEST 11% INTERNATIONAL 2% U.S. TERRITORIES & U.S. CITIZENS LIVING ABROAD admissions.richmond.edu/studentprofile/index.htmlI wonder how much of that 28% is NJ and NY alone......I bet it's high
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 17, 2024 10:09:54 GMT -5
I find the percentage of HC students in the top quarter of the class--69%- hard to believe. For the class of 2027 at Holy Cross. Images from the Common Data Set ![](https://i.imgur.com/3FlXKsm.png) ![](https://i.imgur.com/Wxx6OZU.png)
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Post by hc1996 on May 17, 2024 10:11:01 GMT -5
I find the percentage of HC students in the top quarter of the class--69%- hard to believe. Do you think the percentage should be lower?
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Post by cruskater31 on May 17, 2024 10:18:18 GMT -5
I wonder how Villanova would stack up with their admissions numbers for the data set listed by previous posters. I have to think they would be closer to HC than Richmond?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 17, 2024 10:18:25 GMT -5
I'm replying to Ignatz. Schools can and do access the SAT scores of all applying students. This was revealed, at least to me, by the study that Dartmouth did before recently re-instating standardized test scores. Students who did not submit standardized test scores and were rejected would have been admitted if they had submitted the scores. The school would have considered the score in the context of the student's economic / social circumstances, and admitted him/her. Wait a minute... So all these schools saying they were SAT or ACT optional really weren't? They were using them as admissions criteria even though they said they weren't? If so that's a scumbag move. With an SAT-optional school, an applicant would ask that a school not consider his/her SAT scores during review of the application. And the school would not. The Common App used by HC and countless other schools, including IL, PL, NESCAC, etc., there is a standard block for entering your standardized test scores.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 17, 2024 10:24:13 GMT -5
I find the percentage of HC students in the top quarter of the class--69%- hard to believe. Do you think the percentage should be lower? To the contrary, I expected it to be much higher
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Post by gks on May 17, 2024 10:26:57 GMT -5
Wait a minute... So all these schools saying they were SAT or ACT optional really weren't? They were using them as admissions criteria even though they said they weren't? If so that's a scumbag move. With an SAT-optional school, an applicant would ask that a school not consider his/her SAT scores during review of the application. And the school would not. The Common App used by HC and countless other schools, including IL, PL, NESCAC, etc., there is a standard block for entering your standardized test scores. But you said... Schools can and do access the SAT scores of all applying students and Students who did not submit standardized test scores and were rejected would have been admitted if they had submitted the scores. This doesn't sound very 'optional' to me.
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Post by hcpride on May 17, 2024 10:27:09 GMT -5
I'm replying to Ignatz. Schools can and do access the SAT scores of all applying students. This was revealed, at least to me, by the study that Dartmouth did before recently re-instating standardized test scores. Students who did not submit standardized test scores and were rejected would have been admitted if they had submitted the scores. The school would have considered the score in the context of the student's economic / social circumstances, and admitted him/her. Wait a minute... So all these schools saying they were SAT or ACT optional really weren't? They were using them as admissions criteria even though they said they weren't? If so that's a scumbag move. Difference between an ability to access scores (if that is a fact) and the use of such scores in the admissions decision when a student indicates otherwise. Beyond that, the details of a SAT-Based AI at a test score optional school have long been shrouded in mystery. GPA- based AI in a time of wildly inflated GPAs is actually funny. At the same time there are folks who want to say PL has an AI so having one permits that.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 17, 2024 10:33:37 GMT -5
I wonder how Villanova would stack up with their admissions numbers for the data set listed by previous posters. I have to think they would be closer to HC than Richmond? For the class of 2026 at Villanova, 95 percent were in the top 25 percent of their high school class. For the SAT composite, 74 percent had SAT composite scores between 1400-1600.
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Post by 78purple on May 17, 2024 10:41:54 GMT -5
I don't know if it was offered, but a little surprised Richmond came our way and not to the SoCon. My hunch is that they believe Nova is right behind them in joining our ranks. Curious what the breakdown of undergrads at U of R percentage-wise is from the Northeast...anecdotally knowing friends&family who attended there, I bet it's a fairly high percentage. Current UR student body......37.4% from NY ( 14.4 % ), NJ ( 12.4 % ), PA ( 10.6 % )......Virginia, only 18.4 %
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 17, 2024 10:50:31 GMT -5
With an SAT-optional school, an applicant would ask that a school not consider his/her SAT scores during review of the application. And the school would not. The Common App used by HC and countless other schools, including IL, PL, NESCAC, etc., there is a standard block for entering your standardized test scores. But you said... Schools can and do access the SAT scores of all applying students and Students who did not submit standardized test scores and were rejected would have been admitted if they had submitted the scores. This doesn't sound very 'optional' to me. I said it in the context of Dartmouth doing a review of rejected applicants who had asked that the school not consider SAT scores. As a result, Dartmouth did not consider the scores when reviewing their application. Then as part of a retrospective review of rejected applicants who had asked that their scores not be considered, Dartmouth looked at their scores and found some rejected applicants would have been omitted if they had not asked that their scores not be considered. The applicants had apparently believed the scores were too low. Dartmouth said that scores are considered holistically. As an illustrative example, Dartmouth might give less weight to an applicant's SAT score if he/she lives on a tribal reservation and with parents who never went to college. Dartmouth would expect high test scores from an applicant where both parents hold professional degrees from an Ivy League school, and the applicant went to Phillips Exeter. Because applicants were misconstruing this holistic approach, and were 'penalized', Dartmouth re-instated the requirement for applicants to submit standardized test scores to be considered as part of the admissions review.
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