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Post by 78purple on May 17, 2024 10:52:38 GMT -5
I hope you are wrong about Richmond-W&M. Would the CAA or the PL allow a non conference game to be the final game ? Richmond coming I to a new conference should not dictate the schedule, esp to the detriment of the rest of the teams. Richmond-W&M isn't just any end-of-season rivalry game. It probably has more history than any at the FCS level outside of Harvard-Yale, Lehigh-Lafayette and VMI-Citadel. Agree....i can't see UR giving up the W & M game......it has the tradition that Crusader 2010 suggests......they are also going to want to continue the UVa game at the beginning of the season, although that has been more of an every other year event...
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Post by 78purple on May 17, 2024 10:55:49 GMT -5
This is big….that is all. This instantly elevates the PL on a national level. Richmond is a well-respected name across the FCS world. Still stunned. Still trying to get my hands around the enormity of this move....Tremendous ( and probably league saving ) get for the PL.....Recruiting just got a lot more interesting ....Wow
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 17, 2024 11:20:45 GMT -5
Data for the Holy Cross' class of 2025, This would have been a class materially affected by COVID disruptions. Note the percentages with composite SAT scores below 1000, and yet a higher percentage of this class is n the top quarter of their school than in the class of 2027. ![](https://i.imgur.com/XWzQvde.png) ![](https://i.imgur.com/votLxKi.png) As a test optional school, I had long wondered why applicants to HC with composite scores in the three digits would ever ask the school consider such in its admissions review. I now have come to believe that the SAT scores in the Common Data Set are for the entirety of the class, not just the scores of those who allowed their scores to be considered in admissions review. An Eureka! moment. I had even thought the reason for the low scores at a test optional school was because of a major clerical error or a disgruntled employee sabotaging the database..
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Post by CHC8485 on May 17, 2024 11:21:36 GMT -5
I find the percentage of HC students in the top quarter of the class--69%- hard to believe. For the class of 2027 at Holy Cross. Images from the Common Data Set ![](https://i.imgur.com/Wxx6OZU.png) Sooo... 69% of 22% of the First-Time, First-Year Students submitted their high school rank. Those numbers - like the SAT numbers - are essentially indicative of nothing. I was in a graduating high school class of roughly 350 kids. If I was ranked 30 in that class, i.e. in the top 10% of that class, I'd 1. Be unlikely to apply to HC or other highly selective school 2. Be unlikely to share that rank if I did apply and had the option to withhold it.
[EDIT] For the record - before Tom or sader1970 chime in - I was in the top 10 (3%) of my high school class and graduated in the top 75% of my Holy Cross class!
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 17, 2024 11:28:30 GMT -5
Yes, and I think this section illustrates the relative difficulties of meeting Patriot League AI and redshirt rules while running competitive programs: The inability to redshirt was seen as a huge detriment to New Hampshire's competitiveness on the field - much more so than the Academic Index.
"We had to crunch the Academic Index for months," Scarano told me, "Interestingly enough, the kids we admit would have not been impacted by the academic index. We are admitting kids that fit our academic index just as Lehigh gets theirs, and Colgate gets theirs.
"But one of the really hard obstacles we ran into was redshirting."That might explain why the Richmond press conference hit the red shirt issue really hard and the AI was no issue at all. Amazing for the PL that it picked up a school in UR that's a plus academically and athletically. All under the cover of darkness throughout the FCS world. There wasn't a peep of rumor about this move that I have seen referenced, perhaps because the PL wasn't perceived as being able to pull off an acquisition this good. Once it was announced, people can see the synergy. All the League presidents and ADs, including GU and Fordham, and the two academies, had to be aware of and approve the offer to UR to join before it was made.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 17, 2024 11:45:44 GMT -5
For the class of 2027 at Holy Cross. Images from the Common Data Set ![](https://i.imgur.com/Wxx6OZU.png) Sooo... 69% of 22% of the First-Time, First-Year Students submitted their high school rank. Those numbers - like the SAT numbers - are essentially indicative of nothing. I was in a graduating high school class of roughly 350 kids. If I was ranked 30 in that class, i.e. in the top 10% of that class, I'd 1. Be unlikely to apply to HC or other highly selective school 2. Be unlikely to share that rank if I did apply and had the option to withhold it.
[EDIT] For the record - before Tom or sader1970 chime in - I was in the top 10 (3%) of my high school class and graduated in the top 75% of my Holy Cross class! As I said at the beginning, the class rank is a proxy for GPA, and average GPAs, because Holy Cross, and others, do not report the GPAs of the enrolling class in the CDS. For the Common App, this: As for standardized test scores, I found this with respect to Notre Dame. It is a bit confusing, but this could apply to admitted students who asked that their test scores not be considered in the review of their application. Notre Dame was test-optional.
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Post by DFW HOYA on May 17, 2024 11:55:42 GMT -5
Roughly grouped, Colgate, Richmond, and Georgetown likely have similar school-wide AI scores; Lehigh, Lafayette, and Fordham likely have similar school-wide A! scores. Bucknell and Holy Cross likely have similar school-wide AI scores. Two additional factors to consider: 1. Test-optional admissions favors schools where applicants on the bottom of the SAT curve do not submit scores so as not to diminish their chances of admission and the school's numbers rise accordigly. Number of students submitting SAT's and/or ACT's in 2025 PL schools for admission per the Common Data Set: Georgetown: 100%, tests are required for admission Bucknell : test-optional for admission but required before enrollment for assessment (96% submitted) Holy Cross: 57%, test-optional Colgate: 54%, test-optional Lafayette: 53%, test-optional Lehigh: 50%, test-optional Fordham: 37%, test-optional Richmond: 36%, test-optional 2. The use SAT superscoring (i.e., students only submit the best scores across multiple tests) inflate the scores when taking tests multiple sessions. It's also called "score suppression". 2025 PL schools accepting superscores: Bucknell : Yes Colgate: Yes Fordham: Yes Georgetown: No Holy Cross: Yes Lafayette: Yes Lehigh: Yes Richmond: Yes
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Post by midwestsader05 on May 17, 2024 11:57:03 GMT -5
Amazing for the PL that it picked up a school in UR that's a plus academically and athletically. All under the cover of darkness throughout the FCS world. There wasn't a peep of rumor about this move that I have seen referenced, perhaps because the PL wasn't perceived as being able to pull off an acquisition this good. Once it was announced, people can see the synergy. All the League presidents and ADs, including GU and Fordham, and the two academies, had to be aware of and approve the offer to UR to join before it was made. The UNH quote (granted 10 years ago) is exactly why I think one of three things will happen to Richmond athletics via the AI. UNH is a fine state school but the admissions standards are no where near Richmond’s selectivity. The correlation is simple; the higher the AI of the entire freshman incoming class = the more difficult to attain the necessary aggregate AI avg for incoming student athletes. Either 1 of three things are happening: 1) The PL is relaxing (not abolishing) the target AI for all incoming student athletes. Would also be welcome news to G’Town and even Colgate. 2) The PL will allow a slow transitional period for Richmond to become fully AI complaint. 3) There is an understanding b/t the Richmond athletics department, the football program and admissions that the football program WILL NOT be where the athletics department will have to make changes. The more selective admission requirements will fall upon lesser known Olympic sports. As I think about it more, this one actually seems most likely. After following recruiting very closely for several years, I’ve seen Richmond football admit some kids out of HS or the portal that I don’t believe could have been admitted to the PL. Fordham the only PL school that has been able to push around the admission edges per Chesney. That coupled with 2 primary sources that played for both the PL AND Richmond confirming that perception from an insider view of the academic differences amongst their respective teams.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 17, 2024 12:07:55 GMT -5
^^^ Before Boston University joined the Patriot League, it agreed that students enrolled in one of its colleges could not play on a BU team competing in a conference sport.
And about the same time, the Loyola men's hoops coach quit because Loyola accepted the AI as a condition for joining the PL.
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Post by hc1996 on May 17, 2024 12:25:43 GMT -5
For the class of 2027 at Holy Cross. Images from the Common Data Set ![](https://i.imgur.com/Wxx6OZU.png) Sooo... 69% of 22% of the First-Time, First-Year Students submitted their high school rank. Those numbers - like the SAT numbers - are essentially indicative of nothing. I was in a graduating high school class of roughly 350 kids. If I was ranked 30 in that class, i.e. in the top 10% of that class, I'd 1. Be unlikely to apply to HC or other highly selective school 2. Be unlikely to share that rank if I did apply and had the option to withhold it.
[EDIT] For the record - before Tom or sader1970 chime in - I was in the top 10 (3%) of my high school class and graduated in the top 75% of my Holy Cross class! These data don't appear to be consistent with what I have seen on the various rankings lists. I feel like HC is less selective than I had thought. Is it possible that schools may be reporting differently? Of course, I trust HC is being honest and therefore the results we are seeing here.
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Post by hcpride on May 17, 2024 12:27:34 GMT -5
All the League presidents and ADs, including GU and Fordham, and the two academies, had to be aware of and approve the offer to UR to join before it was made. The UNH quote (granted 10 years ago) is exactly why I think one of three things will happen to Richmond athletics via the AI. UNH is a fine state school but the admissions standards are no where near Richmond’s selectivity. The correlation is simple; the higher the AI of the entire freshman incoming class = the more difficult to attain the necessary aggregate AI avg for incoming student athletes. Either 1 of three things are happening: 1) The PL is relaxing (not abolishing) the target AI for all incoming student athletes. Would also be welcome news to G’Town and even Colgate. 2) The PL will allow a slow transitional period for Richmond to become fully AI complaint. 3) There is an understanding b/t the Richmond athletics department, the football program and admissions that the football program WILL NOT be where the athletics department will have to make changes. The more selective admission requirements will fall upon lesser known Olympic sports. As I think about it more, this one actually seems most likely. After following recruiting very closely for several years, I’ve seen Richmond football admit some kids out of HS or the portal that I don’t believe could have been admitted to the PL. Fordham the only PL school that has been able to push around the admission edges per Chesney. That coupled with 2 primary sources that played for both the PL AND Richmond confirming that perception from an insider view of the academic differences amongst their respective teams. To the extent Richmond currently has any commits (and perhaps the following year’s commits) that fall outside the PL AI guidelines for Richmond, I’d imagine option 2 applies. It is interesting the AI issue wasn’t mentioned as a concern by the coach or president in the press conference. The red shirt issue certainly was (and all indications at the press conference were that Richmond’s current policies in that regard will continue). IMHO Georgetowns football recruiting woes (relative to their PL competition) are a lack of athletic schollies and unimpressive facilities coupled with low financial aid more so than their PL AI.
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Post by hc1996 on May 17, 2024 12:39:00 GMT -5
I wonder how Villanova would stack up with their admissions numbers for the data set listed by previous posters. I have to think they would be closer to HC than Richmond? For the class of 2026 at Villanova, 95 percent were in the top 25 percent of their high school class. For the SAT composite, 74 percent had SAT composite scores between 1400-1600. 20 years ago HC was ranked close to where we are today (top 30 LAC) and Villanova was a "safety". Crazy how things change.
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Post by lehighowl on May 17, 2024 12:42:47 GMT -5
For the class of 2026 at Villanova, 95 percent were in the top 25 percent of their high school class. For the SAT composite, 74 percent had SAT composite scores between 1400-1600. 20 years ago HC was ranked close to where we are today (top 30 LAC) and Villanova was a "safety". Crazy how things change. I'm pretty sure at one point, not too long ago (Father McShane Era?), Villanova and the University of Scranton were 1/2 respectively in the "Regional College" rankings.
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Post by longsuffering on May 17, 2024 13:02:20 GMT -5
^^^ Before Boston University joined the Patriot League, it agreed that students enrolled in one of its colleges could not play on a BU team competing in a conference sport. And about the same time, the Loyola men's hoops coach quit because Loyola accepted the AI as a condition for joining the PL. I wonder if that decision worked out for that coach. It's always great to have at least an equal offer in your back pocket when you make these bold stands on principle. Not that his was a great hill to die on.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 17, 2024 13:03:56 GMT -5
A school named in this thread has a current staff member whose sole responsibility is to provide academic support to a men's team of said institution. This individual has a PhD in education from a PL school, and describes their skills as those of a "learning specialist". This person's previous employment includes nine years as a special education teacher (with an emphasis on dyslexia) and prior to that, this person worked in the tutoring field.
I don't think it is really fair to a student-athlete if their academic eligibility is wholly dependent on their being tutored during the entire course of their schooling. And the institution has one or more academic programs (majors) that are not that challenging. If a school offers both, then, IMO, the AI becomes dispensable.
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Post by longsuffering on May 17, 2024 13:08:52 GMT -5
A school named in this thread has a current staff member whose sole responsibility is to provide academic support to a men's team of said institution. This individual has a PhD in education from a PL school, and describes their skills as those of a "learning specialist". This person's previous employment includes nine years as a special education teacher (with an emphasis on dyslexia) and prior to that, this person worked in the tutoring field. I don't think it is really fair to a student-athlete if their academic eligibility is wholly dependent on their being tutored during the entire course of their schooling. And the institution has one or more academic programs (majors) that are not that challenging. If a school offers both, then, IMO, the AI becomes dispensable. Is that school in a Commonwealth or a regular state? We need some hint to try and triangulate the unnamed fine institution.🙂
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Post by hcpride on May 17, 2024 13:09:14 GMT -5
20 years ago HC was ranked close to where we are today (top 30 LAC) and Villanova was a "safety". Crazy how things change. I'm pretty sure at one point, not too long ago (Father McShane Era?), Villanova and the University of Scranton were 1/2 respectively in the "Regional College" rankings. Look at BU and Northeastern too 😱 Things change.
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Post by DFW HOYA on May 17, 2024 13:11:05 GMT -5
A school named in this thread has a current staff member whose sole responsibility is to provide academic support to a men's team of said institution. This individual has a PhD in education from a PL school, and describes their skills as those of a "learning specialist". This person's previous employment includes nine years as a special education teacher (with an emphasis on dyslexia) and prior to that, this person worked in the tutoring field. The individual in question does not provide academic support to Patriot League student athletes, so it's not relevant to the topic at hand.
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Post by hcpride on May 17, 2024 13:13:31 GMT -5
A school named in this thread has a current staff member whose sole responsibility is to provide academic support to a men's team of said institution. This individual has a PhD in education from a PL school, and describes their skills as those of a "learning specialist". This person's previous employment includes nine years as a special education teacher (with an emphasis on dyslexia) and prior to that, this person worked in the tutoring field. I don't think it is really fair to a student-athlete if their academic eligibility is wholly dependent on their being tutored during the entire course of their schooling. And the institution has one or more academic programs (majors) that are not that challenging. If a school offers both, then, IMO, the AI becomes dispensable. When Father Brooks (pre AI) retained discretion on entry criteria we survived. And prospered. One suspects ditto with Prez Rougeau even if we ditched the AI.
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Post by hchoops on May 17, 2024 13:13:39 GMT -5
A school named in this thread has a current staff member whose sole responsibility is to provide academic support to a men's team of said institution. This individual has a PhD in education from a PL school, and describes their skills as those of a "learning specialist". This person's previous employment includes nine years as a special education teacher (with an emphasis on dyslexia) and prior to that, this person worked in the tutoring field. The individual in question does not provide academic support to Patriot League student athletes, so it's not relevant to the topic at hand. I will guess Hoya men’s hoops
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 17, 2024 13:14:11 GMT -5
A school named in this thread has a current staff member whose sole responsibility is to provide academic support to a men's team of said institution. This individual has a PhD in education from a PL school, and describes their skills as those of a "learning specialist". This person's previous employment includes nine years as a special education teacher (with an emphasis on dyslexia) and prior to that, this person worked in the tutoring field. I don't think it is really fair to a student-athlete if their academic eligibility is wholly dependent on their being tutored during the entire course of their schooling. And the institution has one or more academic programs (majors) that are not that challenging. If a school offers both, then, IMO, the AI becomes dispensable. Is that school in a Commonwealth or a regular state? We need some hint to try and triangulate the unnamed fine institution.🙂 Too exclusionary.
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Post by longsuffering on May 17, 2024 13:14:24 GMT -5
Does UR pay any conference entrance or exit fees just to switch associate membership for one sport?
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Post by longsuffering on May 17, 2024 13:20:53 GMT -5
A school named in this thread has a current staff member whose sole responsibility is to provide academic support to a men's team of said institution. This individual has a PhD in education from a PL school, and describes their skills as those of a "learning specialist". This person's previous employment includes nine years as a special education teacher (with an emphasis on dyslexia) and prior to that, this person worked in the tutoring field. The individual in question does not provide academic support to Patriot League student athletes, so it's not relevant to the topic at hand. But this would be the type of modification the PL could offer to GU to help them be more competitive like the IL offered modifications to Columbia. Even though it's only one sport, it's great to have a world renowned university like Georgetown in the PL. Similar to the two service academies. Even if I was recruiting for an HC sport that doesn't play all of those three schools, I'd drop all of their names in the recruit's living room.
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Post by longsuffering on May 17, 2024 13:23:41 GMT -5
Is that school in a Commonwealth or a regular state? We need some hint to try and triangulate the unnamed fine institution.🙂 Too exclusionary. Turns out the school is in neither a State or a Commonwealth. An unintentional trick question.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on May 17, 2024 13:43:56 GMT -5
A school named in this thread has a current staff member whose sole responsibility is to provide academic support to a men's team of said institution. This individual has a PhD in education from a PL school, and describes their skills as those of a "learning specialist". This person's previous employment includes nine years as a special education teacher (with an emphasis on dyslexia) and prior to that, this person worked in the tutoring field. The individual in question does not provide academic support to Patriot League student athletes, so it's not relevant to the topic at hand. But this person is critical to the athletes' successful academic career at the institution. And a 2,500 square foot or so study hall for the team is not a small investment. Ten or so years ago, the University of Florida was spending $1-2 million a year tutoring members of their men's teams. Using grad students, IIRC. That's dozens of grad students. Bill & Mary's football team several years ago was rostering kinesiology majors. Where there's a will, there's a way. Not much will in the PL for such stuff.
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