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Post by thecrossisback on Mar 9, 2018 12:17:05 GMT -5
Sadly, at this point in time, we basically "need" the PL (for our faltering admissions/brand) more so than they need us. Shame I want to join the Atlantic Ten or the Big East. Also would not mind if they had to play at DCU. Davidson and St Bonaventure are in the Atlantic 10 with small enrollments. Butler and Providence are in the Big East with small enrollments.
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Post by CHC8485 on Mar 9, 2018 12:20:25 GMT -5
I define a good conference as having teams that can routinely make it to the round of 32, and occasionally deeper, and if they lose in the first round, do not get destroyed. Remind me again what those conferences are outside of
ACC Big East A-10 SEC Big 10 Big 12 Pac 12 West Coast (really Gonzaga & St. Mary's) American (maybe but seems to be waning in recent years. Ask UConn)
When you look at the options and add in competing in other sports and you start to see the issue.
So in reality you're talking about the A-10 & the Big East and maybe some day they will be looking to expand again. Until then, continue to get our house in order, work with Bucknell and/or anyone else interested to drive the PL to get better. At least work to develop a Gonzaga/St. Mary's type dynamic duo in the PL with Bucknell.
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Post by hc87 on Mar 9, 2018 12:31:18 GMT -5
A WCC dynamic is never happening in the PL due mostly to admissions/academics.
The problem in a nutshell is that we joined (created) a conference that treats our marquee sport no differently than (apologies in advance ) field hockey, swimming etc
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Post by WorcesterGray on Mar 9, 2018 12:34:30 GMT -5
This discussion is starting already? Going to be a long summer... Somebody's here twelve hours ahead of schedule - going to be a long day . . .
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Mar 9, 2018 13:14:27 GMT -5
I say get a real cool geographical league going wit HC, Assumption, Clark, WPI, WSU,Becker and Anna Maria. Big conference tournament at the DCU. Bill it as "7 Hills to a Championship".
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 9, 2018 13:18:13 GMT -5
lol
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Post by thecrossisback on Mar 9, 2018 13:19:27 GMT -5
I say get a real cool geographical league going wit HC, Assumption, Clark, WPI, WSU,Becker and Anna Maria. Big conference tournament at the DCU. Bill it as "7 Hills to a Championship". In Hope the Crusaders and the Lancers are on opposite sides of the bracket, so they can play In the finals. Why can't the Northeast make a strong conference, BU, Northeastern, UNH, Maine, Vermont, Rhode Island, Umass, Holy Cross Maybe even BC, Providence, UConn
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Post by DiMarz on Mar 9, 2018 13:20:58 GMT -5
I say get a real cool geographical league going wit HC, Assumption, Clark, WPI, WSU,Becker and Anna Maria. Big conference tournament at the DCU. Bill it as "7 Hills to a Championship". In Hope the Crusaders and the Lancers are on opposite sides of the bracket, so they can play In the finals. Why can't the Northeast make a strong conference, BU, Northeastern, UNH, Maine, Vermont, Rhode Island, Umass, Holy Cross Maybe even BC, Providence, UConn That is the old ECAC...basically
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Post by lou on Mar 9, 2018 13:25:44 GMT -5
That's New England, the Northeast would include some of us in NY, and gasp, PA
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Post by CHC8485 on Mar 9, 2018 13:27:43 GMT -5
A WCC dynamic is never happening in the PL due mostly to admissions/academics. The problem in a nutshell is that we joined (created) a conference that treats our marquee sport no differently than (apologies in advance ) field hockey, swimming etc Sorry. Not suggesting Bucknell or HC would be consistently seeded in the 1- 8 range like Gonzaga & St. Mary's with one winning the PL the other getting an at large bid.
But could they both consistently be ranked in the 40 - 100 range fighting each other to win the PL with the conference champ winner being an 11 or 12 seed? With the PL constraints I could see that happening - see Ivy League the past 6 - 8 years.
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Post by bikeman on Mar 9, 2018 13:31:21 GMT -5
To those that love the PL and feel it's the best fit for HC, please don't complain about small crowds or lack of local support. Everyone except the 10 daily posters here hates the PL and has given up supporting HC athletics.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 9, 2018 13:36:15 GMT -5
HC lists average home attendance for men's hoops as 1642/game (for 13 games) and 21,340 for the year. If your post is correct, shouldn't that be about 10 and 130? Could it be that most of those people came to see HC and could care less either way about the Patriot League? How about the reverse...about 10 regular posters here hate the PL (for a variety of reasons) and those who do go to games support Holy Cross?
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Post by WCHC Sports on Mar 9, 2018 13:43:58 GMT -5
To those that love the PL and feel it's the best fit for HC, please don't complain about small crowds or lack of local support. Everyone except the 10 daily posters here hates the PL and has given up supporting HC athletics. To be quite clear, I don't love the Patriot League, but I think the focus should be on us doing everything we can do in our control, and doing it exceptionally well, first... and THEN worrying about the league. We are bitching and moaning about deserving or needing a raise to be more productive, when there are 2-3 other employees in the department doing a better job than us.
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Post by rgs318 on Mar 9, 2018 13:46:28 GMT -5
Nice analogy. Before you say the PL is beneath us and is holding us back, try beating the teams in it on a regular basis. There are some conferences who might take HC simply because, at this point, they want a new doormat. If Bucknell can develop a perennially strong program in the PL, why can't HC?
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Post by thecrossisback on Mar 9, 2018 13:51:24 GMT -5
To those that love the PL and feel it's the best fit for HC, please don't complain about small crowds or lack of local support. Everyone except the 10 daily posters here hates the PL and has given up supporting HC athletics. To be quite clear, I don't love the Patriot League, but I think the focus should be on us doing everything we can do in our control, and doing it exceptionally well, first... and THEN worrying about the league. We are bitching and moaning about deserving or needing a raise to be more productive, when there are 2-3 other employees in the department doing a better job than us. Baloney. If they win 5 Patriot League Championships in a row and then switched conferences, they would get crushed by other teams. The team will get better in a better conference. Beating up on the weak means nothing.
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Post by Ray on Mar 9, 2018 13:56:19 GMT -5
To be quite clear, I don't love the Patriot League, but I think the focus should be on us doing everything we can do in our control, and doing it exceptionally well, first... and THEN worrying about the league. We are bitching and moaning about deserving or needing a raise to be more productive, when there are 2-3 other employees in the department doing a better job than us. Baloney. If they win 5 Patriot League Championships in a row and then switched conferences, they would get crushed by other teams. The team will get better in a better conference. Beating up on the weak means nothing. Fordham basketball says "hi".
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Post by thecrossisback on Mar 9, 2018 14:00:03 GMT -5
Baloney. If they win 5 Patriot League Championships in a row and then switched conferences, they would get crushed by other teams. The team will get better in a better conference. Beating up on the weak means nothing. Fordham basketball says "hi". The 1947 National Championship Trophy says Hi! Haven't made NCAA since 1992 Cursed! The Ghost of the Patriot League
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Mar 9, 2018 14:00:12 GMT -5
To those that love the PL and feel it's the best fit for HC, please don't complain about small crowds or lack of local support. Everyone except the 10 daily posters here hates the PL and has given up supporting HC athletics. To be quite clear, I don't love the Patriot League, but I think the focus should be on us doing everything we can do in our control, and doing it exceptionally well, first... and THEN worrying about the league. We are bitching and moaning about deserving or needing a raise to be more productive, when there are 2-3 other employees in the department doing a better job than us. Bingo, although I liked the 400lb. fat bastard complaining about the track much better.😀
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Post by joe on Mar 9, 2018 14:07:55 GMT -5
WCHC: "HC loved when it had scholarships and nobody else did, so it could compete with two hands while everyone else had a hand tied behind their back. It's enjoyable for the team to win, but HC could not reasonably expect that advantage to last forever, nor could the PL expect to be viable (let alone respectable) if that imbalance was maintained."
- No I completely agree with you here. When you win, have SRO at home games, and go dancing, you kind of forget about how crappy of a league you're in. I'd take that in a heartbeat.
Bison137: "Conference has actually won three first round games plus one play-in."
- Noted. My opinion remains unchanged. The league has been around long enough to figure out how to do better than this, AI or not.
As I said, when I think of a decent conference I think of going deeper than 32, not getting blown out in the 64, and being able to get an at-large bid once in a while. For example, let's say HC ended up winning the PLT this year. The regular season champ with 20+ wins should at least HAVE A CHANCE at an at-large. A CHANCE, that's all I'm saying. Bucknell would have had zero. This makes the PLT both exciting and, as Carm agrees, somewhat intrinsically unfair.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Mar 9, 2018 14:10:55 GMT -5
For someone who was (once) quite athletic, I could never get around the track like I could on a basketball court or soccer field. My brain also works in analogies. I think it brings some humor to the discussions, even if I'm the only one who laughs
To thecrossisback, if Bucknell jumped ship and left the PL tomorrow, I have a gut feeling that they wouldn't be "crushed" by other teams like you say unless they went straight into the ACC (which is unlikely anyway). I'm not too big into analytical stats, but this year they lost to Maryland by 2. They lost to UNC by 12, so hardly "crushed."
For folks that may be asking for a new conference or league affiliation, you can't seriously either want or expect HC to go into the top leagues in the whole country and be anything other than a doormat, do you? Do you think that they would grow from a bottom-feeder into a contender? Are there any examples of that happening in the top 6-7 leagues today? I don't think there's that much parity.
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Post by joe on Mar 9, 2018 14:16:15 GMT -5
For folks that may be asking for a new conference or league affiliation, you can't seriously either want or expect HC to go into the top leagues in the whole country and be anything other than a doormat, do you? Do you think that they would grow from a bottom-feeder into a contender? Are there any examples of that happening in the top 6-7 leagues today? I don't think there's that much parity.
Great point but kind a defeatist attitude, no? There's only 5 guys on the court at once. No D1 team is ever that far from excellence with a good coach, a few solid recruits, and an administration that gives a damn. It can be done. Haven't you seen Hoosiers?
I'll take Austin Butler over Jimmy Chitwood any day, by the way.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Mar 9, 2018 14:21:29 GMT -5
Confucius say much easier to board train at the station,rather than one moving 70 mph.
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Post by thecrossisback on Mar 9, 2018 14:26:26 GMT -5
I would rather see the team loose in a good conference, than win in a weak one. Beating Lafayette does not make them ready for a tournament game against a one seed. Plus the Patriot League is never had a team seeded in the top ten. Always 16, 15, 14, 13,. Also a good point made above, is the PL can never even get an at large bid. Only hope is the power five break from the NCAA and have their own tournament. Causing the NCAA to let in more smaller conference teams.
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Post by Ray on Mar 9, 2018 14:33:17 GMT -5
I would rather see the team loose in a good conference, than win in a weak one. Beating Lafayette does not make them ready for a tournament game against a one seed. Plus the Patriot League is never had a team seeded in the top ten. Always 16, 15, 14, 13,. Also a good point made above, is the PL can never even get an at large bid. Only hope is the power five break from the NCAA and have their own tournament. Causing the NCAA to let in more smaller conference teams. Facts are hard: Bucknell was a 9 seed in 2006.And an 11 in 2013 if you want to keep it to this decade. There's an interesting study about whether the PL's performance in the NCAAs, over a nearly 30-year sample size, is better/worse/about the same as other one-bid leagues. But that would involve using data and facts to support your argument, rather than your faulty memory.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Mar 9, 2018 14:33:41 GMT -5
For folks that may be asking for a new conference or league affiliation, you can't seriously either want or expect HC to go into the top leagues in the whole country and be anything other than a doormat, do you? Do you think that they would grow from a bottom-feeder into a contender? Are there any examples of that happening in the top 6-7 leagues today? I don't think there's that much parity.
Great point but kind a defeatist attitude, no? There's only 5 guys on the court at once. No D1 team is ever that far from excellence with a good coach, a few solid recruits, and an administration that gives a damn. It can be done. Haven't you seen Hoosiers?
I'll take Austin Butler over Jimmy Chitwood any day, by the way. See Loyola (Chicago). Was a non-factor in the Horizon League FOREVER. Then they get invited to the Missouri Valley and all of a sudden they are at the top of that league. MVC not what it was when Creighton and Wichita were there but still a damn good conference.
Not saying we shouldn't focus on improving the program before looking to change the league, but if the A-10 came calling tomorrow I'd hope the school would say yes without thinking twice.
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