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Post by bigfan on Mar 10, 2018 9:18:32 GMT -5
To "notjuanjones" In regards to your post, I believe that your comments in b & c would help HC if they left the PL.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Mar 10, 2018 10:02:53 GMT -5
I have absolutely no dog in this hunt. I'm just curious, being an outsider. Is the desire by those who want Holy Cross to leave the Patriot League based on: a) A belief that HC could return to being a national powerhouse in basketball if it were in a bigger, more "prestigious" conference than the PL?; b) A belief that the Patriot League, as a basketball conference, is not good enough for HC; c) A belief that leaving the PL would increase student and/or alumni interest in the program; d) A desire to be in a Catholic-based basketball league for non-basketball reasons; e) Some combination of the above; f) None of the Above/Some other reason Again, I'm just curious. Speaking for myself and not AU, I've come to enjoy the PL very much. We were not willing to spend what was necessary at the time to remain in the CAA, and the CAA wasn't exactly clamoring for us to stay, anyway. Some AU folks thought similarly to some people I've read here, that we would quickly come to dominate the PL and then get invited to a "bigger" conference. That hasn't exactly happened. Since we've been in the conference there have been some very good programs to compete against--HC last decade, Lehigh/Bucknell in the McCollum/Muscala years and Bucknell now. But the level of competition has been consistently good at the top throughout the years we've been here, IMHO. Hopefully we'll be back at that top again soon as we were for a decade under Jeff Jones. B and C most relevant. With regards to D, I do believe there is a desire to play in a conference with other Catholic schools but not because of non-basketball reasons. As far as academic affiliation goes, most would agree the PL is the best fit. Some here probably believe in point A, that HC's program will naturally become stronger by joining a better conference. In other words, they don't think we know how to institutionally find a way to win in the PL but the second we go to the A-10 or BE, we will organically turn into a powerhouse and the '70's will be back again.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Mar 10, 2018 10:40:21 GMT -5
What do we know that Fordham doesn't? Can we sell our secret to them for millions of dollars, and use that to fund our transition to the BE?
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Post by bison137 on Mar 10, 2018 10:46:14 GMT -5
What do we know that Fordham doesn't? Can we sell our secret to them for millions of dollars, and use that to fund our transition to the BE? Probably nothing. As an example of what a move to the A10 (not happening anyway) might create.
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Post by HC92 on Mar 10, 2018 10:47:26 GMT -5
We have been to the NCAA tourney six times since Fordham was last there.
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Post by hchoops on Mar 10, 2018 10:49:53 GMT -5
We have been to the NCAA tourney six times since Fordham was last there. Which was 1992 and before that 1971
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Post by hcnation on Mar 10, 2018 12:08:28 GMT -5
What do we know that Fordham doesn't? Can we sell our secret to them for millions of dollars, and use that to fund our transition to the BE? What does Davidson know in a location where 90 % of the buzz is ACC not A-10
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Post by hc87 on Mar 10, 2018 12:11:02 GMT -5
Just an observation, you're seeing a lot of the same complaints (admittedly writ larger) with UConn basketball today: playing uninteresting (to fans) opponents, can't recruit like we once did, local interest waning etc etc that one saw with HC after we declined the BE invite.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Mar 10, 2018 12:22:23 GMT -5
Caro's obsession with all things Pitino speaks volumes about his character, IMO.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Mar 10, 2018 12:33:44 GMT -5
What do we know that Fordham doesn't? Can we sell our secret to them for millions of dollars, and use that to fund our transition to the BE? Hah, as long as Loyola (Chicago) doesn't sell that secret first. Should we win the resulting bidding war, it may not be enough to fund the BE transition -- maybe A-10 though.
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Post by joe on Mar 10, 2018 12:48:06 GMT -5
Of course HC basketball can again generate a strong local following if it perennially dominates the PL and puts up a fight in March, but I just can’t understand how and why that would ever happen. So what’s more unrealistic, thinking we are going to compete adequately in a more legit/exciting conference or that we are somehow going to figure out a recipe for PL dominance year in and year out?
I had to think for a moment about which I, as a fan and alum, would prefer. Another way of looking at it, would I rather be a fan of St. Joe’s this season or Bucknell? My preference is St. Joe’s, holding it’s own against still competition, Bucknell beating up on low major teams all year.
I think that with the appropriate support and coaching that it is frankly much more doable.
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Post by gks on Mar 10, 2018 12:48:23 GMT -5
The Patriot League is awful for basketball. If I was the decision maker I'd be done with the PL in an instant. But Holy Cross' problem is Holy Cross. I am convinced the powers that be don't care to win and the old HC fans know this. If the school doesn't care why should everyone else.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Mar 10, 2018 12:55:22 GMT -5
Envious of the packed house, fans right at the edge of the court.....at the Vermont-UMBC game I'm watching right now.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Mar 10, 2018 13:55:13 GMT -5
What do we know that Fordham doesn't? Can we sell our secret to them for millions of dollars, and use that to fund our transition to the BE? What does Davidson know in a location where 90 % of the buzz is ACC not A-10 True, but at least it's college hoops....they are the kid brother. With the pro stranglehold up here, college sports are the red headed step children. The only mention March Madness gets on WEEI and the Sports Hub is to put it down....and they spend out 5 minutes out of the year on that.
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Post by cmo on Mar 10, 2018 20:57:20 GMT -5
This nova - prov game is great.
I only remember the tail end of our PC rivalry, but watching this makes you understand the frustration with the Big East decision and current PL status.
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Post by res on Mar 11, 2018 10:17:57 GMT -5
What does Davidson know in a location where 90 % of the buzz is ACC not A-10 True, but at least it's college hoops....they are the kid brother. With the pro stranglehold up here, college sports are the red headed step children. The only mention March Madness gets on WEEI and the Sports Hub is to put it down....and they spend out 5 minutes out of the year on that. Dave, he's also conveniently forgetting that prior to being invited to join the A10 Davidson had dominated in its previous conference, winning 13 regular season titles between 1996 and 2014, going to 7 NCAA tournaments over the same period. Its lower-level conference affiliation didn't seem to kill the program.
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Post by cmo on Mar 11, 2018 10:23:55 GMT -5
Does Bucknell explore making a similar jump?
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Post by timholycross on Mar 11, 2018 10:32:51 GMT -5
Does Bucknell explore making a similar jump? Great program (which I'd take in a heartbeat), great school, great (small, relatively) arena; but nothing else going for it. TV market incredibly small (which one is it?) . Dwarfed by nearby Penn State in just about everything athletically. Not happening.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Mar 11, 2018 10:59:55 GMT -5
Does Bucknell explore making a similar jump? Great program (which I'd take in a heartbeat), great school, great (small, relatively) arena; but nothing else going for it. TV market incredibly small (which one is it?) . Dwarfed by nearby Penn State in just about everything athletically. Not happening. Scranton/Wilkes-Barre DMA
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Post by hopjim on Mar 11, 2018 11:01:05 GMT -5
Appreciate that some looking at facts rather than (with all due respect), illogical arguments that basketball success is all about the league. Would submit a few other thoughts:
1. At the heart of everything, HC is an academic institution, something to be proud of. Unless you are a much larger school, such as Duke and Notre Dame, difficult to invest in what is needed to compete in a major basketball conference.
2. The idea of a "Catholic conference" appears to be long gone. Villanova, Boston College, etc. are larger and more committed to investing in sports. Not sure if any of the catholic universities would want to partner with a small, Worchester based school that is unlikely to ever draw more than 1000-1500 a game.
3. Since Bucknell is often mentioned, its a good model to understand and follow. Alums understand its an academic first school and pride that graduates getting good jobs and having positive careers. They embrace being a sports underdog and seem to take pride in what they can accomplish not just in basketball but all sports. Their track, lacrosse, wrestling, swimming, etc. programs are surprisingly good. In basketball, while they typically lose, they schedule 3-5 of the top names in the sport each year. Basketball is almost a "brand." Surprising amount of alums travel to basketball games around country (not in numbers but relative to size of alumni base) and go to "watch parties" around US (friend just told me he attended one in Dallas for PL Championship).
4. Bucknell, Leigh, etc. appear to do the basics well. Bucknell in particular has a small, but great gym. Consistently brings in good coaches. Alumni are supportive. All these factors are within the ability of HC alums to influence.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Mar 11, 2018 11:26:56 GMT -5
Nice analysis-but disagree that Holy Cross will never draw more than 100o to 1500 fans per game. A good team at HC will draw 2,500+ consistently in my opinion.
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Post by hc87 on Mar 11, 2018 13:40:38 GMT -5
HC will never consistently draw 2500 while playing in the PL. We didn't when Willard was winning in the early 2000s. We may get a few games at that #: Winter HC, a big PL game, a rare name OOC opponent etc but the years of a packed or near packed Hart every game are as dead as disco.
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Post by joe on Mar 11, 2018 13:53:22 GMT -5
Nice analysis-but disagree that Holy Cross will never draw more than 100o to 1500 fans per game. A good team at HC will draw 2,500+ consistently in my opinion. I don’t think so, not for everyday games, even if we were very good, as long as we either remain in the PL or the PL remains a crap conference. If we had a winning streak of like 15 regular season games heading into March as the one seed, just maybe for the last few.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Mar 11, 2018 13:54:19 GMT -5
HC will never consistently draw 2500 while playing in the PL. We didn't when Willard was winning in the early 2000s. We may get a few games at that #: Winter HC, a big PL game, a rare name OOC opponent etc but the years of a packed or near packed Hart every game are as dead as disco. 2002-03: 2,959 2003-04: 3,274
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Post by joe on Mar 11, 2018 14:13:00 GMT -5
HC will never consistently draw 2500 while playing in the PL. We didn't when Willard was winning in the early 2000s. We may get a few games at that #: Winter HC, a big PL game, a rare name OOC opponent etc but the years of a packed or near packed Hart every game are as dead as disco. 2002-03: 2,959 2003-04: 3,274 Encouraging but is it replicable without total HC dominance given the overall decline in college basketball attendance in general?
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