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Post by hcpride on Oct 8, 2018 8:40:26 GMT -5
Some of those in Gilmore's dusty cupboard that I think can play on most any D-IAA team: Blaise Bell, Richie DeNicola, Martin Dorsey, Teddy Capsis, Ryan Brady, Joe Lang, Chris Riley, Brian Foley, Jack Bowler, . . . . . just a sampling that come immediately to mind. Unfortunately there is one kind of important position on that list missing.... Having watched every down on Saturday's SBU-Towson (D1-AA, CAA) game I've gotta flatly disagree with sader1970's theory. I'll spare fellow crossporters a rundown on position by position (including FCS transfers and CAA accolades) at SBU, for example. But if he means those guys could start on one PL team or another this year I'd have to agree. As gks notes, QB is a glaring issue.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2018 8:50:53 GMT -5
And the 1987 team would have beaten the 2003 team 66-0.....just bustin' Probably more. haha A few years ago, I met up with "Gil the Thrill" and we hiked Stone Mountain outside of Atlanta. For every three steps I took, Gil took one. Fenerty has one of the longest strides I have ever seen in my life. Even in his 50's, he was pumped to do the walk up trail multiple times and kept pace. Can only imagine what an absolute animal that guy was when he played.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 8, 2018 9:14:31 GMT -5
And the 1987 team would have beaten the 2003 team 66-0.....just bustin' Probably more. haha A few years ago, I met up with "Gil the Thrill" and we hiked Stone Mountain outside of Atlanta. For every three steps I took, Gil took one. Fenerty has one of the longest strides I have ever seen in my life. Even in his 50's, he was pumped to do the walk up trail multiple times and kept pace. Can only imagine what an absolute animal that guy was when he played. Gil graduated '85 and was a huge part of those powerhouse (and pre PL) teams of '83 and '84. Those two teams would've won 70-0. (IMHO our most talented teams in that era were Carter teams of the early '80's and Crossporters frequently confuse those years with the later '80's PL Duffner years when we were also very good but included the weaker (non-schollie)PL teams as a portion of our competition)
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 8, 2018 9:35:34 GMT -5
gks, good point about the Ivies and their bottomless pocketbooks. And, if we are to be realistic, the only way a kid takes a PL school over an Ivy school is 1. they are a legacy of the PL school, 2. think the PL is easier academically than the Ivy, 3. have a friend on the team, 4. just wowed by the head coach, 5. think they have a better chance of starting on the PL team, 6. like the schedule so that they get to play an D-IA school and/or get to play for a national championship. Finding the hidden gem recruit and having a great game/recruiting coach is critical to success.
On the "cupboard was bare" argument, I agree that the QB position appears to be weak as demonstrated on the field so far and that is unquestionably the most important position on the field but we have a 3* recruit who is sitting on the bench. Again, the star rating system may well be suspect with some getting no stars and being excellent players and the reverse may well be true. But, a big but, there's been no game chance given to this player.
BTW, 43, some of my football classmates ('67-'69) think they would have kicked your best teams' butts despite the fact that they had a record of 5-5, 3-6-1 and 0-2 (cancelled season) in their 3 years at varsity. The belief is because they played the likes of Syracuse and BC, they would have rolled over teams that are "just D-IAA" while they like to think they were a D-IA team (no such categories existed at the time). When you are so close up, it is difficult to see the forest when the trees are so close. They conveniently forget that they also played Harvard, Dartmouth, Yale, Colgate, BU, UConn, UMass [latter 2 recently "upgraded" to D-IA]. My classmates lost 41-7 and 47-0 to Syracuse and 13-6 and 40-20 to BC. Syracuse was nationally ranked in those days, not BC, which was more on par with us. Point is, it is hard to be objective.
All is history. We need to be looking forward. I think Chesney + LAC = future success. The x factor is how long it will take.
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Post by joe on Oct 8, 2018 9:56:20 GMT -5
gks, good point about the Ivies and their bottomless pocketbooks. And, if we are to be realistic, the only way a kid takes a PL school over an Ivy school is 1. they are a legacy of the PL school, 2. think the PL is easier academically than the Ivy, 3. have a friend on the team, 4. just wowed by the head coach, 5. think they have a better chance of starting on the PL team, 6. like the schedule so that they get to play an D-IA school and/or get to play for a national championship. Finding the hidden gem recruit and having a great game/recruiting coach is critical to success. On the "cupboard was bare" argument, I agree that the QB position appears to be weak as demonstrated on the field so far and that is unquestionably the most important position on the field but we have a 3* recruit who is sitting on the bench. Again, the star rating system may well be suspect with some getting no stars and being excellent players and the reverse may well be true. But, a big but, there's been no game chance given to this player. BTW, 43, some of my football classmates ('67-'69) think they would have kicked your best teams' butts despite the fact that they had a record of 5-5, 3-6-1 and 0-2 (cancelled season) in their 3 years at varsity. The belief is because they played the likes of Syracuse and BC, they would have rolled over teams that are "just D-IAA" while they like to think they were a D-IA team (no such categories existed at the time). When you are so close up, it is difficult to see the forest when the trees are so close. They conveniently forget that they also played Harvard, Dartmouth, Yale, Colgate, BU, UConn, UMass [latter 2 recently "upgraded" to D-IA]. My classmates lost 41-7 and 47-0 to Syracuse and 13-6 and 40-20 to BC. Syracuse was nationally ranked in those days, not BC, which was more on par with us. Point is, it is hard to be objective. All is history. We need to be looking forward. I think Chesney + LAC = future success. The x factor is how long it will take. This all boils down to one simple thing when comparing PL vs IL. It's not the quality, it's the quantity.
In terms of money, there is still a pool of players (middle to upper middle class) who would do better financially on schollie than with need-based aid, although the various grants and so forth from the IL blur the lines.
As I've said before, if you want to play scholarship level FCS football, if you're in for a penny, you have to be in for a pound. PL is nowheresville, and will always be nowheresville unless they make the needed changes to compete. The perfect model to copy is there, and it's called the CAA. If the PL in general, and HC specifically, can't figure out how to compete at that level without sacrificing a significant aspect of its academic integrity, it will only go so far, even under a coach with the enormous potential of Chesney. If Chesney fails at HC, we should be prepared to watch him dominate at another school more willing to support excellence.
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Post by gks on Oct 8, 2018 10:04:02 GMT -5
Agree Joe with CAA. That's the model to follow but will the administrations want to? They do, after all, have public universities in their ranks.
The way HYP and Dartmouth are going you can't complete with their "financial aid". I would say bye-bye to Ivies unless they (Ivy League) is going to conform with 1-AA guidelines.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 8, 2018 10:04:03 GMT -5
gks, good point about the Ivies and their bottomless pocketbooks. And, if we are to be realistic, the only way a kid takes a PL school over an Ivy school is 1. they are a legacy of the PL school, 2. think the PL is easier academically than the Ivy, 3. have a friend on the team, 4. just wowed by the head coach, 5. think they have a better chance of starting on the PL team, 6. like the schedule so that they get to play an D-IA school and/or get to play for a national championship. Finding the hidden gem recruit and having a great game/recruiting coach is critical to success. On the "cupboard was bare" argument, I agree that the QB position appears to be weak as demonstrated on the field so far and that is unquestionably the most important position on the field but we have a 3* recruit who is sitting on the bench. Again, the star rating system may well be suspect with some getting no stars and being excellent players and the reverse may well be true. But, a big but, there's been no game chance given to this player. BTW, 43, some of my football classmates ('67-'69) think they would have kicked your best teams' butts despite the fact that they had a record of 5-5, 3-6-1 and 0-2 (cancelled season) in their 3 years at varsity. The belief is because they played the likes of Syracuse and BC, they would have rolled over teams that are "just D-IAA" while they like to think they were a D-IA team (no such categories existed at the time). When you are so close up, it is difficult to see the forest when the trees are so close. They conveniently forget that they also played Harvard, Dartmouth, Yale, Colgate, BU, UConn, UMass [latter 2 recently "upgraded" to D-IA]. My classmates lost 41-7 and 47-0 to Syracuse and 13-6 and 40-20 to BC. Syracuse was nationally ranked in those days, not BC, which was more on par with us. Point is, it is hard to be objective. All is history. We need to be looking forward. I think Chesney + LAC = future success. The x factor is how long it will take. This all boils down to one simple thing when comparing PL vs IL. It's not the quality, it's the quantity.
In terms of money, there is still a pool of players (middle to upper middle class) who would do better financially on schollie than with need-based aid, although the various grants and so forth from the IL blur the lines.
As I've said before, if you want to play scholarship level FCS football, if you're in for a penny, you have to be in for a pound. PL is nowheresville, and will always be nowheresville unless they make the needed changes to compete. The perfect model to copy is there, and it's called the CAA. If the PL in general, and HC specifically, can't figure out how to compete at that level without sacrificing a significant aspect of its academic integrity, it will only go so far, even under a coach with the enormous potential of Chesney. If Chesney fails at HC, we should be prepared to watch him dominate at another school more willing to support excellence.
Joe No. Middle class now attends HYP for free (athlete and non-athlete). That is the enormous change a few folks have referenced. And upper middle class may also be free or near-free (depending on how you define upper middle class). And financial aid is now all grant for all students (athlete and non-athlete alike) in the IL. Harvard: "If your family income is less than $65,000, your parents pay nothing. [Note: In some parts of the country, some serious football parts BTW, this is a good family income] For families earning between $65,000 and $150,000, the expected contribution is between zero and 10 percent of your annual income." Sader1970 - I think the comments about which teams were better specified the 80's (v 2003) era. No doubt there were other good teams in HC history and no claims to complete objectivity here on Crossports.
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Post by purplehaze on Oct 8, 2018 10:10:44 GMT -5
The CAA does take some liberties to achieve the high level of play which is clearly near or at the top of the fcs every year. for example: = red-shirting (without injury) = january enrollment (for frosh who can graduate early from h.s. and therefore participate in spring practice) = liberal academic requirements (with tutoring 'from day one' for some)
By the way this past weekend no.9 Elon won at no.2 JMU in front of a sold-out crowd of 26,000. The public does support this brand of football in some areas of the league (but for the most part, crowds are in the 7-12000 range)
My point is that the PL will never be able to compete with the Ivies (well demonstrated advantages) and the CAA unless we adopt some 'relaxation' of standards. We will be left being compared to the NEC (with their 40 schollie limit), a place I don't want to be
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Post by gks on Oct 8, 2018 10:19:11 GMT -5
The CAA does take some liberties to achieve the high level of play which is clearly near or at the top of the fcs every year. for example: = red-shirting (without injury) = january enrollment (for frosh who can graduate early from h.s. and therefore participate in spring practice) = liberal academic requirements (with tutoring 'from day one' for some) By the way this past weekend no.9 Elon won at no.2 JMU in front of a sold-out crowd of 26,000. The public does support this brand of football in some areas of the league (but for the most part, crowds are in the 7-12000 range) My point is that the PL will never be able to compete with the Ivies (well demonstrated advantages) and the CAA unless we adopt some 'relaxation' of standards. We will be left being compared to the NEC (with their 40 schollie limit), a place I don't want to be Red Shirting, January enrollment and tutoring are not "liberties." You make it sound like the CAA is doing thing the wrong way....that's just not true. The NCAA rules allow five years to play four...it's the dumb Patriot League that decides not to follow that. January enrollment is getting more and more popular. The Lindstroms at BC are two examples of kids who busted their a** to finish high school early and get a jump start on college life. What is wrong with tutoring? If a kid needs help they should get it. Should the general student population not have access to tutors also? The problem is the Patriot League and there ridiculous, unrealistic rules and 'ideals'.
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Post by joe on Oct 8, 2018 10:21:43 GMT -5
What some call "relaxed standards" and "liberties" are misnomers based on the old-fashioned stereotypes of the jock athlete of the past who took basket-weaving classes and couldn't spell. Tell some of the guys from the 80s they got into HC because of relaxed standards, right? What HC needs to do is weight different parts of applicant's attributes on a case-by-case basis, taking into account their athletic ability in a particular sport or sports, which wasn't too hard from admissions to do prior to the AI, and given that the school is still tiny, should not be that different now. You can use non-AI parameters for admission, and once matriculated use a variety of standard academic support, along with redshirting, to help ensure that student-athletes graduating from the college will continue to be among the best. That's party what the mentoring program is here for as well. We'll take care of our own.
In terms of H-Y-P and upper to middle class athletes getting full freight, hmm. I've never actually researched it. I don't get the impression that as slick as the IL is, I don't think they are handing out money like candy. If so, how this continues to fly under the NCAA radar makes the NCAA, who should be maintaining fair and ethical competition within it's various levels of play, look foolish (not smart enough to outsmart the Ivy League. Yikes).
GKS is spot on.
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Post by gks on Oct 8, 2018 10:28:56 GMT -5
It's the lack of roster limits in the Ivy League that's killing the PL. IL teams can list well over 100 players on a roster. If they had to follow the 1-AA limits 20-40 kids would be back in the player pool. PL is not the only league being hurt by this but since the PL goes after the same kid it's hurting big time. I think Chesney realizes this. Look at the offers for a good chunk of his offers...mostly competing against CAA and low-level FBS.
NCAA won't touch the Ivies practices because 1) they are the Ivy League and 2) they don't compete in the playoffs so no one really cares. If they were to join the 1-AA playoffs they'd have to change.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 8, 2018 10:31:10 GMT -5
The CAA does take some liberties to achieve the high level of play which is clearly near or at the top of the fcs every year. for example: = red-shirting (without injury) = january enrollment (for frosh who can graduate early from h.s. and therefore participate in spring practice) = liberal academic requirements (with tutoring 'from day one' for some) By the way this past weekend no.9 Elon won at no.2 JMU in front of a sold-out crowd of 26,000. The public does support this brand of football in some areas of the league (but for the most part, crowds are in the 7-12000 range) My point is that the PL will never be able to compete with the Ivies (well demonstrated advantages) and the CAA unless we adopt some 'relaxation' of standards. We will be left being compared to the NEC (with their 40 schollie limit), a place I don't want to be Red Shirting, January enrollment and tutoring are not "liberties." You make it sound like the CAA is doing thing the wrong way....that's just not true. The NCAA rules allow five years to play four...it's the dumb Patriot League that decides not to follow that. January enrollment is getting more and more popular. The Lindstroms at BC are two examples of kids who busted their a** to finish high school early and get a jump start on college life. What is wrong with tutoring? If a kid needs help they should get it. Should the general student population not have access to tutors also? The problem is the Patriot League and there ridiculous, unrealistic rules and 'ideals'. PL (ranked now at 11) is much closer to NEC (ranked now at 12) than it is to either CAA (ranked now at 2) or Ivy (ranked now at 3). www.masseyratings.com/cf/compare1aa.htm(No doubt there are CAA schools with very strong academic reputations so it is possible to be strong in both football and academics. I would think the non-medical redshirts (with no impact on our misguided AI BTW) would be a no-brainer to perhaps close the margins a bit.)
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 8, 2018 10:39:15 GMT -5
IIRC, Wade was the fourth string QB when he got the start after PP went down, Wade was a full pay, and may still be. The second string QB was either Bell or Ian Brown. Brown had a badly injured leg. Bell, subbing for PP, was unsuccessful and replaced by Wade. I don't believe Brown ever played a down at HC; he was all-state in Missouri and would have been a senior this year. Brown in his junior HS year threw for 45 TDs and almost 2,500 yards. The cupboard may seem bare to some when it comes to QBs, but it is not that CTG didn't have a likely successor to PP in the wings.
As for Clifford,
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Post by hcpride on Oct 8, 2018 10:40:11 GMT -5
In terms of H-Y-P and upper to middle class athletes getting full freight, hmm. I've never actually researched it. I don't get the impression that as slick as the IL is, I don't think they are handing out money like candy. If so, how this continues to fly under the NCAA radar makes the NCAA, who should be maintaining fair and ethical competition within it's various levels of play, look foolish (not smart enough to outsmart the Ivy League. Yikes).
GKS is spot on. It applies to all kids (not just athletes) so it has nothing to do with the NCAA. Things have changed. This, again is straight from their website (plus I have personal experience in guiding middle class parents thru the process...in almost all cases a middle or upper middle class parents' cheapest option - by far - is HYP): "If your family income is less than $65,000, your parents pay nothing. For families earning between $65,000 and $150,000, the expected contribution is between zero and 10 percent of your annual income." college.harvard.edu/admissions/choosing-harvard/affordability
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Post by purplehaze on Oct 8, 2018 10:42:16 GMT -5
Hey guys, you misinterpreted my point. I want the PL AD'S to sit down and plan how to compete with the CAA and Ivies, on an "urgent" basis, like NOW ! As I stated, I do not want to be compared with the NEC, that is a terrible place to be and I want no part of it (if it wasn't for Colgate we'd be far below the NEC this year)
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Post by joe on Oct 8, 2018 10:45:05 GMT -5
Yeah, now I remember us talking about this. It's lunacy for us to think we can compete with that. We need to put up or shut up. I can only think Chesney is the last chance HC is going to give this completely failed dynamic.
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Post by joe on Oct 8, 2018 10:59:41 GMT -5
Hey guys, you misinterpreted my point. I want the PL AD'S to sit down and plan how to compete with the CAA and Ivies, on an "urgent" basis, like NOW ! As I stated, I do not want to be compared with the NEC, that is a terrible place to be and I want no part of it (if it wasn't for Colgate we'd be far below the NEC this year)
It's certainly urgent at this point. Sitting back and watching another regime fail is idiotic. If we have the coach of the future, now is the time to plan for the future. Not in 1 year, or 2 years, or 4 years, or whatever. Figure out what we want to be and come out and state it.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 8, 2018 11:15:12 GMT -5
In terms of H-Y-P and upper to middle class athletes getting full freight, hmm. I've never actually researched it. I don't get the impression that as slick as the IL is, I don't think they are handing out money like candy. If so, how this continues to fly under the NCAA radar makes the NCAA, who should be maintaining fair and ethical competition within it's various levels of play, look foolish (not smart enough to outsmart the Ivy League. Yikes).
GKS is spot on. It applies to all kids (not just athletes) so it has nothing to do with the NCAA. Things have changed. This, again is straight from their website (plus I have personal experience in guiding middle class parents thru the process...in almost all cases a middle or upper middle class parents' cheapest option - by far - is HYP): "If your family income is less than $65,000, your parents pay nothing. For families earning between $65,000 and $150,000, the expected contribution is between zero and 10 percent of your annual income." college.harvard.edu/admissions/choosing-harvard/affordabilityThere are families with an annual income of $250,000 or more whose son/daughter receive financial aid at Harvard. I would have to go back and check, but I distinctly recall that as the PL transitioned to scollies, Fordham and one or two other PL programs (Colgate? Lehigh?) saw their spending on football actually decrease. How could that be? My belief is that Fordham and this other school(s) were spending more on need-based fin aid than they were on scollie-based aid.
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Post by purplehaze on Oct 8, 2018 11:35:09 GMT -5
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Post by joe on Oct 8, 2018 11:43:08 GMT -5
Outstanding. Deserves in own thread here if someone can finesse cut and paste, probably best to move it our of the game discussion anyway.
Brilliant piece of penmanship.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 8, 2018 11:47:58 GMT -5
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Post by timholycross on Oct 8, 2018 13:16:38 GMT -5
Pretty easy to figure out who Sader 87 is!!!
I liked this quote "Before yesterday, Lehigh was 5-1 against Princeton dating back to 2010. The last meeting, in 2016, Lehigh won 42-28. Coen suddenly wants people to believe that Princeton and the Ivies have surpassed Lehigh to that extent in 2 years? "
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Post by hc87 on Oct 8, 2018 14:15:38 GMT -5
Touche....it's interesting to hear the perspectives of other PL fans on this issue...I do think it's an issue that is increasingly reaching critical mass....most of the PL teams are among the worst in the FCS this year, crowds of roughly 2,000 are the norm not the exception league-wide etc etc....if the league was a medical patient, it would be labeled "In critical condition"
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jstew
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Post by jstew on Oct 8, 2018 14:16:20 GMT -5
Lehigh doesn't look like a world-beater either. For comparison's sake, Gilmore was 3-8 his first year, winless in the PL until the overtime win vs Gtown in the season finale. For those that make the scheduling argument, the PL is an absolute joke this year and every conference game outside of Colgate is "Georgetown" type of competition from year's past. It definitely seems that the PL has fallen substantially over the past 8 years and will need to create a new identity or become a second rate Ivy League experience with Div 2/Div 3 talent. The play for HC will be to get into the CAA if they want to really "compete" at the FCS level. In response to the 3-8 comment above, that 2004 team would have beat our 2018 team by at least two scores. Even in the "non-scholarship era", we still had a dual threat quarterback that went through a read progression, an All American/future HOF at Tailback, strong receivers, and a decent defense. In 2003, Colgate made it to the FCS National Championship game to give some perspective into how strong the PL was at that time. Remember how intense the Lehigh/Lafayette rivalry was back in the day? That game along with Colgate, usually determined the fate of the PLC and produced a lot of NFL talent as a byproduct. I know it's easy to exaggerate your own athletic experience, however, I can say with 100% certainty that the Patriot League is the weakest it has been since it's inception. Most of these players starting in 2018, would not have played from 2004-10. If I recall correctly, 2003 team was beating eventual IAA national championship finalists, Colgate entering the 4th quarter...just sayin'.
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Post by hc80 on Oct 8, 2018 16:47:28 GMT -5
I can't get it out of my head that the offensive funk of this team is because of a lack of talent at the QB position. We all saw Wade two years ago when PP went down - he showed some potential - had a few good games. Clifford was all-conference in the Chicago Catholic League -- won the Illinois 8A state title for crying out loud. There has to be some level of talent in him -- that conference and state playoffs have all sorts of outstanding players and teams. Whatever poor play we have seen at QB - just does not add up to being strictly a personnel issue in my opinion.
It just seems that our offense is built to go east/west -- and that does not work at this level - if you are not a north/south threat, might as well play Division 2 ball.
I did not see the whole UNH game - but I was at the Bucknell game. Bucknell's defense just continued to creep up into the box and play tight on every wideout. They were just playing for all the short yardage plays..whether it is a run or a pass. We hit a few big ones in the fourth quarter against Bucknell once we looked downfield.
If we are not taking shots down the field (even if they are not complete) - we have no chance. Against UNH, we had 7 pass plays that were completed that gained 4 yards or less. Explain to me the point of that! Let alone there were 2 incompletions intended for running backs that were probably within the line of scrimmage even if caught. Maybe if I saw the films of UNH I would see that we were taking some downfield shots -- but I doubt it happened - and in college football, if you don't go downfield, you are going nowhere. And that is why we were 1 of 12 on third down conversions. You ain't beating anybody if you are 1 of 12 on third down.
Time to change the offensive set -- hell, even if the QBs throw interceptions on long passes -- no worse than punting at this point. And if we are worried about the pass rush, move the pocket. Put pressure on the corners and outside linebackers....But do something for cryin' out loud!! Either the run game has to set up the passing attack or the passing attack has to open it up underneath -- got to one or other and we have proven that the status quo gets us nowhere.
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