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Post by sader1970 on Oct 7, 2018 11:52:01 GMT -5
I think Gilmore had a bigger hill to climb than Chesney in their respective first years, JMO.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Oct 7, 2018 13:49:37 GMT -5
It’s all I'm not sure that Nate could have done anything quicker on TG replacement as I don't think you can talk to replacement coaches under hire until after the season is over. Could have been a quicker hire but Chesney seems to be the one that over time will get us to the promised land. He did some very good recruiting but say he was able to get even more/better recruits, would you expect them all playing right now. As I posted elsewhere, talent is very important but so is experience. Chesney has been in Worcester for several years, allowing Pine the opportunity to do almost unlimited research on him. Pine should have known if Chesney was a strong candidate for the HC job years ago and would have had a perfect benchmark to compare against and see if anyone out there was better as he started conversations after using OC Rock to make a move on Gilmore in the middle of the season. He should have been ready to move on Chesney the Monday after Assumption was eliminated from the playoffs. Instead, he dragged out interviews with Lee Hull (unemployed) and Terry Malone (not an official assistant at Western Michigan) who he could have interviewed any time he wanted, and delayed the Chesney hire for several weeks until the week of the early signing period. The process and timeline were very poorly managed.
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Post by joe on Oct 7, 2018 15:13:57 GMT -5
Agree with BBC. As I said, I’m giving it two seasons before making judgement, but I will not be a Pollyanna. I am convinced that HC wants football to succeed but I am not confident that our tendency toward tactical and strategic errors, nor a certain stubbornness and arrogance, is behind us. My main gripes are the manner in which the Lurh donation was used, as it relates to FB, BB, and IH and the maintenance of too many sports, and the refusal to admit that, as well intended as it might have been, our joining the PL has been an unmitigated failure from a competitive standpoint. HC and HC alone should be able to decide what sports it plays and what students it accepts. It worked for a over a century, with HC turning out varsity athletes who have represented the school as good or better than non-athletes in their adult lives, and that same sort of institutional self-confidence can work again. While holding tight to the schools long held traditions of faith, ethics, academics, athletics, and social responsibility, let the dropping of our mascot be the last concession made to external influence and constructs.
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Post by joutsHC77 on Oct 7, 2018 15:32:12 GMT -5
Touche! Could we at least put a Crusader knight logo tattooed on one of his cheeks? No that would infuriate the BOT.
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Post by gks on Oct 7, 2018 15:49:36 GMT -5
Here's the thing that perplexes me: viewing this from 1,000 miles away, and not being a football expert, I'm inclined to suggest that Degenhardt should get his chance to show what he can do in a game with his highly touted throwing arm. Then I ask: "If I can see this, why can't the coaches?" The answer always comes back : "The coaches see everything I am seeing and more--in practices and in the game--and they know more about football than I ever will, and they don't want to put the new guy in." It's frustrating, isn't it? Surely the coaches can look at the scoreboard and the stat sheet and see that the offense is struggling mightily. Could it be that Coach Chesney wants to wait for an easier opponent for CD's debut, rather than throwing him to the wolves? This is not like our baseball debates where the moronic sacrifices are clearly ill-advised...... I think the correct answer is Degenhardt is not that good. Otherwise...I think he'd be playing.
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Post by gks on Oct 7, 2018 15:52:17 GMT -5
I think Gilmore had a bigger hill to climb than Chesney in their respective first years, JMO. Have to disagree. There is no Steve Silva on this year's team. Gilmore also inherited John O'Neil I believe.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 7, 2018 16:01:54 GMT -5
Silva couldn't have really been good . . . . . he's from RI . . . . worse than Massachusetts for football.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 7, 2018 17:50:33 GMT -5
Gilmore had an easier schedule. He also had no scollie players.
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Post by trimster on Oct 7, 2018 18:20:59 GMT -5
Silva couldn't have really been good . . . . . he's from RI . . . . worse than Massachusetts for football. Steve Silva is a Holy Cross Hall of Famer.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 7, 2018 18:26:29 GMT -5
Here's the thing that perplexes me: viewing this from 1,000 miles away, and not being a football expert, I'm inclined to suggest that Degenhardt should get his chance to show what he can do in a game with his highly touted throwing arm. Then I ask: "If I can see this, why can't the coaches?" The answer always comes back : "The coaches see everything I am seeing and more--in practices and in the game--and they know more about football than I ever will, and they don't want to put the new guy in." It's frustrating, isn't it? Surely the coaches can look at the scoreboard and the stat sheet and see that the offense is struggling mightily. Could it be that Coach Chesney wants to wait for an easier opponent for CD's debut, rather than throwing him to the wolves? This is not like our baseball debates where the moronic sacrifices are clearly ill-advised...... I think the correct answer is Degenhardt is not that good. Otherwise...I think he'd be playing. While I would not single out any players, I don't think it is a secret that we were not pulling in the most coveted recruits near the end of Gilmore's tenure. (Recruit ranking stars notwithstanding). On a different note, I watched every snap of the Towson game and QB Flacco (Joe's younger and shorter brother) reminded me very much of Peter Pujols - especially when Peter was more of a scrambler. Flacco is tearing up the CAA this year.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Oct 7, 2018 19:26:23 GMT -5
It was nice to see Peter McCarty on the sidelines, a former HC assistant under Mark Duffner, who has an outstanding resume for an assistant coach, at nine schools including several P5 schools. Too bad he was coaching for UNH, instead of HC. unhwildcats.com/coaches.aspx?rc=360 I wonder if he has any interest in return to Worcester. Any thoughts from those who knew him when he was here 30 years ago.
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Post by jkh67 on Oct 7, 2018 19:40:09 GMT -5
I didn't see yesterday's game. Reading all the input on this thread this week and in weeks past from folks who follow the program a lot more closely than I do, it's clear that Gilmore left a bare cupboard...especially at QB. Questions are also emerging (at least on Crossports) about Chesney and/or his staff..especially on offense. I'll only say again what I've said before. To wit, that Chesney is like a jolt of adrenalin compared to a lack-luster Gilmore. It may turn out that he's not the Messiah, especially given his lack of experience at the FCS level. In any event, I think we all need to chill out and give him a few years to show whether he's got what it takes or not. Especially given the challenging early season schedule this year.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 7, 2018 20:13:21 GMT -5
Excuse me for bringing up all the players from the sophomores to seniors and even some of the freshmen were recruited by Gilmore and his assistants ("his guys?") and to say the cupboard was bare is an insult to them.
I don't think supporting and wishing Chesney and the team success has to be at the expense of criticizing the former head coach and the players he brought to Holy Cross.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 7, 2018 20:19:36 GMT -5
Good point, sader1970. One does not require the other.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 7, 2018 20:26:45 GMT -5
Some of those in Gilmore's dusty cupboard that I think can play on most any D-IAA team:
Blaise Bell, Richie DeNicola, Martin Dorsey, Teddy Capsis, Ryan Brady, Joe Lang, Chris Riley, Brian Foley, Jack Bowler, . . . . . just a sampling that come immediately to mind.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 7, 2018 20:30:44 GMT -5
Good men, all. You make a good point. However, having the pieces will not necessarily produce a working engine unless here is a effective plan for assembling them into a smooth running whole.
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Post by sader1970 on Oct 7, 2018 20:34:17 GMT -5
Spot on. But that smooth running machine that sputtered last season hasn't been finely tuned yet this season either.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 7, 2018 21:43:28 GMT -5
We're fighting the old battles here but the fact remains, Tom Gilmore was not the man to lead HC football in 2018, he wasn't in probably 2013 or 2014 either....only met him a couple of times at reunions and he seemed like a very good man. He was just not a good head football coach at HC in the PL scholarship-era for all the varied reasons I've stated here for the last 5 years.
That said, Chesney may well not be either but he deserves some time to determine that.
We have some decent players this year agreed but there are some gaping holes in the rostah: line play in general on both sides and the QB are the most glaring. Very hard, if not impossible, to have a decent team when that is the case.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2018 22:47:20 GMT -5
There are three games left with which we may have a shot ( 50/50 ) at victory. Lafayette, Fordham and Georgetown. We better win at least one of them. Finishing 1-10 would be a real issue even with our talent level. A good staff should be able get more than one win even with this schedule. Let's face it our program right now is at rock bottom. Let's hope coach can get this turned around within 3-4 years ( yes it will take that long ) Lehigh doesn't look like a world-beater either. For comparison's sake, Gilmore was 3-8 his first year, winless in the PL until the overtime win vs Gtown in the season finale. For those that make the scheduling argument, the PL is an absolute joke this year and every conference game outside of Colgate is "Georgetown" type of competition from year's past. It definitely seems that the PL has fallen substantially over the past 8 years and will need to create a new identity or become a second rate Ivy League experience with Div 2/Div 3 talent. The play for HC will be to get into the CAA if they want to really "compete" at the FCS level. In response to the 3-8 comment above, that 2004 team would have beat our 2018 team by at least two scores. Even in the "non-scholarship era", we still had a dual threat quarterback that went through a read progression, an All American/future HOF at Tailback, strong receivers, and a decent defense. In 2003, Colgate made it to the FCS National Championship game to give some perspective into how strong the PL was at that time. Remember how intense the Lehigh/Lafayette rivalry was back in the day? That game along with Colgate, usually determined the fate of the PLC and produced a lot of NFL talent as a byproduct. I know it's easy to exaggerate your own athletic experience, however, I can say with 100% certainty that the Patriot League is the weakest it has been since it's inception. Most of these players starting in 2018, would not have played from 2004-10.
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Post by timholycross on Oct 7, 2018 23:34:23 GMT -5
Ok, 43, let's assume your premise is correct. The $64,000 question is: WHY IS THAT? All 7 teams don't have sh**tty OCs, a stubborn admissions director, a laissez-faire administration, Nate Pine not hiring a head coach soon enough, you name it. All should be better with scholarships (sans Georgetown, who doesn't have them), only Colgate is reasonably successful.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 7, 2018 23:34:39 GMT -5
And the 1987 team would have beaten the 2003 team 66-0.....just bustin'
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Oct 8, 2018 7:31:23 GMT -5
Ok, 43, let's assume your premise is correct. The $64,000 question is: WHY IS THAT? All 7 teams don't have sh**tty OCs, a stubborn admissions director, a laissez-faire administration, Nate Pine not hiring a head coach soon enough, you name it. All should be better with scholarships (sans Georgetown, who doesn't have them), only Colgate is reasonably successful. I have three explanations The first comes from being seduced by the lure of scollies. A PL school, when rostering, has two choices: either 60 full scollies, or 40-45 full scollies, and 40+ partials. Re: the partials, PL schools will often lose out to a public university because the cost of attendance at a public university is substantially less, and it is cheaper for parents to have Johnny play football at UNH on a partial than at HC. If a half scollie at HC is $140,000 out of pocket over four years, and UNH is half that, where is Johnny more likely to wind up playing? Overall, the quality of those on the UNH [public university] team on partial scollies is likely to be higher than that of a PL ream, 40-45 full scollies is a two deep, and unless ten freshmen start on opening day, more than a few partials will be on that two deep. With only 40-45 full scollie players, one cannot make more than a few 'mistakes' when a recruited scollie player doesn't quite pan out. Second is what the Lehigh coach complained about. The generosity of IL fin aid these days, and almost certainly a HYP offers a lot more in fin aid to football players than does a PL school. Third, I suspect PL recruiting has not sufficiently adjusted to the demographic fact of declining high school enrollment in the Northeast., and shifted recruiting elsewhere. I looked at Princeton's roster: 28 players from CA,FL, and TX; 12 from AL, GA, and LA; 18 from all of New England and NY.
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Post by gks on Oct 8, 2018 8:28:47 GMT -5
Some of those in Gilmore's dusty cupboard that I think can play on most any D-IAA team: Blaise Bell, Richie DeNicola, Martin Dorsey, Teddy Capsis, Ryan Brady, Joe Lang, Chris Riley, Brian Foley, Jack Bowler, . . . . . just a sampling that come immediately to mind. Unfortunately there is one kind of important position on that list missing....
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Post by timholycross on Oct 8, 2018 8:33:22 GMT -5
Wonder if any coach in the league has considered changing his strategy (offensive) because of limited player resources (as PP implies above)? Don't run as many plays, shorten the game, that sort of thing. It would seem to make sense to try that.
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Post by gks on Oct 8, 2018 8:37:15 GMT -5
Ok, 43, let's assume your premise is correct. The $64,000 question is: WHY IS THAT? All 7 teams don't have sh**tty OCs, a stubborn admissions director, a laissez-faire administration, Nate Pine not hiring a head coach soon enough, you name it. All should be better with scholarships (sans Georgetown, who doesn't have them), only Colgate is reasonably successful. I have three explanations The first comes from being seduced by the lure of scollies. A PL school, when rostering, has two choices: either 60 full scollies, or 40-45 full scollies, and 40+ partials. Re: the partials, PL schools will often lose out to a public university because the cost of attendance at a public university is substantially less, and it is cheaper for parents to have Johnny play football at UNH on a partial than at HC. If a half scollie at HC is $140,000 out of pocket over four years, and UNH is half that, where is Johnny more likely to wind up playing? Overall, the quality of those on the UNH [public university] team on partial scollies is likely to be higher than that of a PL ream, 40-45 full scollies is a two deep, and unless ten freshmen start on opening day, more than a few partials will be on that two deep. With only 40-45 full scollie players, one cannot make more than a few 'mistakes' when a recruited scollie player doesn't quite pan out. Second is what the Lehigh coach complained about. The generosity of IL fin aid these days, and almost certainly a HYP offers a lot more in fin aid to football players than does a PL school. Third, I suspect PL recruiting has not sufficiently adjusted to the demographic fact of declining high school enrollment in the Northeast., and shifted recruiting elsewhere. I looked at Princeton's roster: 28 players from CA,FL, and TX; 12 from AL, GA, and LA; 18 from all of New England and NY. The throwing around of money by the Ivy League is far and away the biggest talent drain on the PL. The way the Ivies beat the system by calling their scholarships "financial aid" allows them unlimited rosters full of top level 1-AA talent and they are stealing 1-A talent at a high rate as well. Why don't they play an FBS school? Well one reason is they schedule way down on the whole but the bigger reason is say Harvard played BC. Harvard would have to report their equivalencies to the NCAA to count as a game towards BC's bowl eligibility. Right now I've heard from people that HYP and probably Dartmouth have between 100 and 120 equivalencies on their rosters. Twenty years ago when Ivies weren't throwing money around like drunken sailors PL would get the players (who were still very good) who Ivies didn't want. Now that the PL can't compete with the Ivies money-wise they have to compete with CAA and NEC schools which brings in the always willing to cooperate Admissions Departments.
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