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Post by possum on Jan 7, 2019 15:57:03 GMT -5
Jack Donohue may have been a great guy and storyteller but his teams never got it done at the end of seasons with tourney bids on the line. In the last 3 games of the six seasons Jack had quality teams his record was 3-15.
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Post by hchoops on Jan 7, 2019 16:20:46 GMT -5
Jack D still had a .616 wining percentage, slightly better than RW’s .615
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 7, 2019 16:46:24 GMT -5
Disclaimer: My opinion based on stats is included below. Please skip if you are too sensitive to read something written by someone who might have a different opinion than you.With the talk in the Navy thread about “ugly” and “pretty” games, and the “grind” of conference games, I decided to take a quick look at the performance of Carmody’s Northwestern teams in road games in the BIG10 conference. The question I was hoping to gain some better insight into was: Does Carmody’s style and system prepare his teams to win tough conference games with any level of consistency? Some stats: - Over 13 seasons, Carmody’s teams were 21-89 (.191) in BIG10 road games
- The highest B10 road win total was 3, achieved two times. In 11 of 13 seasons, his teams won 2 or fewer B10 road games. (7 seasons with 8 road games, 6 with 9 road games). In 6 of 13 seasons, his teams won 1 or 0 B10 road games
- Of the 21 wins those teams accumulated, only 4 (19%) were against teams who finished in the top half of the B10 in that particular season
- The average B10 rank of the teams Northwestern beat on the road was 8.4. (median = 9)
- Of the 21 wins those teams accumulated, only 4 (19%) were against teams who finished with a B10 record of at least .500 in that particular season
- The average B10 winning percentage of the teams Northwestern beat on the road was .342. (median = .313)
- 2010-11 was likely Carmody’s best chance to get a Nortwestern team to the NCAA Tournament (final KenPom rank of 50), but they could only manage a B10 road record of 2-7 (.222).
Carmody has won conference road games at a slightly higher clip at Holy Cross ( 8-21, .276), but the teams have continued to be extremely inconsistent. Based on these data points, I would argue that employing a system that places more emphasis on perimeter shooting than defense and rebounding does not equip a team to win with any type of consistency in conference road games, particularly against the better teams in the league. Okay let's put that record into context by comparing him to prior Northwestern University coaches Kevin O'Neill, immediate predecessor, had a record of 9-39= .188 in BIG10 Road & Home games combined
Ricky Byrdsong, who preceded O'Neill, had a record of 10-62= .139 in BIG10 Road & Home games combined
Bill Foster, Byrdsong's predecessor, had a record of 13-113= .103 in BIG10 Road & Home Games combined
So, Bill Carmody had a better record in conference road games than his predecessors at Northwestern had in road & home games combined! He moved the program forward a great deal.
How did Princeton do in Ivy League road games when Carmody coached there?
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 7, 2019 16:50:54 GMT -5
Disclaimer: My opinion based on stats is included below. Please skip if you are too sensitive to read something written by someone who might have a different opinion than you.With the talk in the Navy thread about “ugly” and “pretty” games, and the “grind” of conference games, I decided to take a quick look at the performance of Carmody’s Northwestern teams in road games in the BIG10 conference. The question I was hoping to gain some better insight into was: Does Carmody’s style and system prepare his teams to win tough conference games with any level of consistency? Some stats: - Over 13 seasons, Carmody’s teams were 21-89 (.191) in BIG10 road games
- The highest B10 road win total was 3, achieved two times. In 11 of 13 seasons, his teams won 2 or fewer B10 road games. (7 seasons with 8 road games, 6 with 9 road games). In 6 of 13 seasons, his teams won 1 or 0 B10 road games
- Of the 21 wins those teams accumulated, only 4 (19%) were against teams who finished in the top half of the B10 in that particular season
- The average B10 rank of the teams Northwestern beat on the road was 8.4. (median = 9)
- Of the 21 wins those teams accumulated, only 4 (19%) were against teams who finished with a B10 record of at least .500 in that particular season
- The average B10 winning percentage of the teams Northwestern beat on the road was .342. (median = .313)
- 2010-11 was likely Carmody’s best chance to get a Nortwestern team to the NCAA Tournament (final KenPom rank of 50), but they could only manage a B10 road record of 2-7 (.222).
Carmody has won conference road games at a slightly higher clip at Holy Cross ( 8-21, .276), but the teams have continued to be extremely inconsistent. Based on these data points, I would argue that employing a system that places more emphasis on perimeter shooting than defense and rebounding does not equip a team to win with any type of consistency in conference road games, particularly against the better teams in the league. Because -- Holy Cross : The Patriot League :: Northwestern : The Big Ten Please. You're grasping.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Jan 7, 2019 17:06:34 GMT -5
Disclaimer: My opinion based on stats is included below. Please skip if you are too sensitive to read something written by someone who might have a different opinion than you.With the talk in the Navy thread about “ugly” and “pretty” games, and the “grind” of conference games, I decided to take a quick look at the performance of Carmody’s Northwestern teams in road games in the BIG10 conference. The question I was hoping to gain some better insight into was: Does Carmody’s style and system prepare his teams to win tough conference games with any level of consistency? Some stats: - Over 13 seasons, Carmody’s teams were 21-89 (.191) in BIG10 road games
- The highest B10 road win total was 3, achieved two times. In 11 of 13 seasons, his teams won 2 or fewer B10 road games. (7 seasons with 8 road games, 6 with 9 road games). In 6 of 13 seasons, his teams won 1 or 0 B10 road games
- Of the 21 wins those teams accumulated, only 4 (19%) were against teams who finished in the top half of the B10 in that particular season
- The average B10 rank of the teams Northwestern beat on the road was 8.4. (median = 9)
- Of the 21 wins those teams accumulated, only 4 (19%) were against teams who finished with a B10 record of at least .500 in that particular season
- The average B10 winning percentage of the teams Northwestern beat on the road was .342. (median = .313)
- 2010-11 was likely Carmody’s best chance to get a Nortwestern team to the NCAA Tournament (final KenPom rank of 50), but they could only manage a B10 road record of 2-7 (.222).
Carmody has won conference road games at a slightly higher clip at Holy Cross ( 8-21, .276), but the teams have continued to be extremely inconsistent. Based on these data points, I would argue that employing a system that places more emphasis on perimeter shooting than defense and rebounding does not equip a team to win with any type of consistency in conference road games, particularly against the better teams in the league. Because -- Holy Cross : The Patriot League :: Northwestern : The Big Ten Please. You're grasping. So can I interpret that to mean that you're a fan of Carmody's system and style and think it will actually bring a high level of success to HC, and reverse miserable results on the road in conference games over the last 16 seasons? In Carmody's first 3 years at HC he was 7-20 (.259) in PL road games. Of those 7 wins, the highest PL finish was 5. The average PL finish of those 7 teams was 7.7, and the average PL winning percentage was .349 Carmody was 0-12 in road games against the top 4 teams in the PL during his first 3 seasons. 1-13 vs the top 5 teams 2-14 vs the top 6 teams 2-17 vs the top 7 teamsThese are just simple numbers.
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Post by ndgradbuthcfan on Jan 7, 2019 17:27:26 GMT -5
Notre Dame's arena didn't open up until I was a senior in high school, 1969, Prior to that they played in a pit called the Rockne Memorial. Not too many decent teams ventured there. The capacity was in the 3s. I doubt Jack D wanted to play there any more than ND wanted to play in Worcester. Actually, the Irish played in what was generally referred to as the "Fieldhouse" -- the Rock was always built as a rec center for the students -- there was a gym, pool, etc.... Still used for intramurals and general recreation. Had the chance to play in pickup games there few times in the late 70s. After the ACC (now the Joyce Center) was built, the Fieldhouse was used for fine art studios and the like. One of my good friends had his pottery class there as a matter of fact.... As a ND grad (64-68) I should weigh in here. hc80 is correct about the facility names. Something tells me that Moose Krause's name was somehow involved with the Fieldhouse. Anyways, I seriously doubt that capacity was in the threes, much less than that. We did beat Houston at home with Elvin Hayes and Don Chaney and they were pretty decent. Most of the quality teams, i.e., Indiana, Kentucky, UCLA, we played on the road. Ali gave an anti war speech at the Fieldhouse when he was litigating his Viet Nam draft status.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 7, 2019 17:30:15 GMT -5
Because -- Holy Cross : The Patriot League :: Northwestern : The Big Ten Please. You're grasping. So can I interpret that to mean that you're a fan of Carmody's system and style and think it will actually bring a high level of success to HC, and reverse miserable results on the road in conference games over the last 16 seasons? In Carmody's first 3 years at HC he was 7-20 (.259) in PL road games. Of those 7 wins, the highest PL finish was 5. The average PL finish of those 7 teams was 7.7, and the average PL winning percentage was .349 Carmody was 0-12 in road games against the top 4 teams in the PL during his first 3 seasons. 1-13 vs the top 5 teams 2-14 vs the top 6 teams 2-17 vs the top 7 teamsThese are just simple numbers. We weren't very good in either one of Carmody's first three seasons, so I'm really not surprised with the poor records! Thank you for breaking everything out. If this trend continues this season, then I imagine just about every poster on this message board will be questioning whether Carmody is the right guy for the job.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Jan 7, 2019 17:44:17 GMT -5
So can I interpret that to mean that you're a fan of Carmody's system and style and think it will actually bring a high level of success to HC, and reverse miserable results on the road in conference games over the last 16 seasons? In Carmody's first 3 years at HC he was 7-20 (.259) in PL road games. Of those 7 wins, the highest PL finish was 5. The average PL finish of those 7 teams was 7.7, and the average PL winning percentage was .349 Carmody was 0-12 in road games against the top 4 teams in the PL during his first 3 seasons. 1-13 vs the top 5 teams 2-14 vs the top 6 teams 2-17 vs the top 7 teamsThese are just simple numbers. We weren't very good in either one of Carmody's first three seasons, so I'm really not surprised with the poor records! Thank you for breaking everything out. If this trend continues this season, then I imagine just about every poster on this message board will be questioning whether Carmody is the right guy for the job. Strongly doubt that, but hope we don't have to find out. Go Cross Go!
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Post by hchoops on Jan 7, 2019 18:07:03 GMT -5
BBC, Do these numbers leave out some road wins during the PLT in ‘17.? If so, I am sure it was accidental also.
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Post by lou on Jan 7, 2019 18:13:54 GMT -5
Weren't we the first ever 9 vs 1 tourney win under Carmody at Bucknell?
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Post by efg72 on Jan 7, 2019 18:17:09 GMT -5
Jack Donohue may have been a great guy and storyteller but his teams never got it done at the end of seasons with tourney bids on the line. In the last 3 games of the six seasons Jack had quality teams his record was 3-15. He was a great guy and I thought recruited some terrific talent. Unfortunaly in the games that determined post season play the opposition was very well coached
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 7, 2019 18:38:09 GMT -5
Don't we all wish that Carmody was coaching HC in those games instead of Jack? Well, maybe not, I think he was still in high school at the time. Seriously though, we had real solid teams in those days but, yes, as the season wound down, it seemed we were always playing St. John's and/or PC the last couple or three games of those seasons and wins would have gotten us into post-season but never happened in my 4 years.
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Post by rgs318 on Jan 7, 2019 18:51:21 GMT -5
I remember those "near misses" to get to post-season all too well.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Jan 7, 2019 18:55:28 GMT -5
BBC, Do these numbers leave out some road wins during the PLT in ‘17.? If so, I am sure it was accidental also. Just looked at regular season to continue the comparison with the Northwestern results. The question being asked was whether Carmody’s system that emphasizes perimeter shooting more than defense and rebounding was well suited for winning tough games with any type of consistency.
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Post by efg72 on Jan 7, 2019 18:58:25 GMT -5
Look we changed coaches because we are building for the future. Milan was a wonderful person and passionate about his job. One of my sons spent one year with him at MSM. Not many better men out there, but he wasn’t a great teacher or bench coach, but he loved his kids and respected the game—very rare today in this “me generation”
As an institution we made a change in an effort to reestablish the program and make a commitment of sorts to the basketball effort. If you speak to George and Ralph I doubt they would have opposed the hire.
Carmody and the staff know and love the game and want and expect to win each time they step on the floor. They also know where they stand in terms of leagues, talent and competition.
We all realize the team changed offensive styles of play, which many oppose, but any offense or defense is about execution-much like business- while we all focus on strategy, execution beats strategy every day.
While the first two recruiting classes left gaps, that is not a surprise because recruitable players(AAU) don’t want to play defense and prefer an unstructured offense. Getting to the NCAA likely helped us more than a little
But for those in the PL we all recognize there are academic standards and barriers and in our case we get precious little if any help or support from those leading the admissions effort.
At this point the success of any of our athletic programs will be based on teaching, developing and building a winning culture. In other words, comparisons and data are not relevant at this time.
Let’s learn how to win again, enjoy the experience and build a program for the future. Despite the concern the coach is not engaged in a meaningful way with his team or alumni outside of basketball practice and games, we have the right coaches in place to build for the future!!
Success takes time and patience and for a program looking to rebuild I will bet there will be plenty of frustrating moments but success will be a reality.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 7, 2019 19:00:33 GMT -5
It worked at Princeton.
But then you’ll say, “He was coaching with Pete Carril’s players.”
To which I will say, “So, players matter. The players he had at Northwestern weren’t as good as other schools in the Big Ten.”
To which you will say, “So, he’s a bad recruiter.”
And around and around we go.
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Post by efg72 on Jan 7, 2019 19:12:27 GMT -5
Despite the minutes the underclassmen received last year and the first part of this season, it is quite possible they are still learning the nuances of the offense and defense. Recently there seems to be a bit of uncertainty in positioning on the floor offensively and defensively we have too many missed assignments. What might be needed is an experienced leader on the floor to help guide the team through some of the more difficult and challenging minutes. I believe this will sort itself out over the next few weeks as Green begins to be more of a coach on the floor, but it is a gap.
It appears as if the more physical and better coached teams understand how to alter some of the cuts and then jump in the passing lanes, which upsets the spacing and takes away some easier options making us shoot too soon or not look to make the extra pass. Even when a good shot is taken, in the end the execution looks ugly.
While youth plays into some of this, it is important to recognize they are growing as a team and learning how to win together. The loss yesterday is part of that development and I am sure they will learn from the experience and adjust. The good thing is this team has a number of really tough competitors, is reasonably well coached, and I believe they will still win 20 plus this year which will be a great success!
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Post by ericobeyyourthirst on Jan 7, 2019 19:21:08 GMT -5
It worked at Princeton. But then you’ll say, “He was coaching with Pete Carril’s players.” To which I will say, “So, players matter. The players he had at Northwestern weren’t as good as other schools in the Big Ten.” To which you will say, “So, he’s a bad recruiter.” And around and around we go. *Wakes up in the morning* 1. Go bash the Holy Cross basketball program *Rinse, Wash, Repeat*
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Post by bringbackcaro on Jan 7, 2019 19:54:52 GMT -5
It worked at Princeton. But then you’ll say, “He was coaching with Pete Carril’s players.” To which I will say, “So, players matter. The players he had at Northwestern weren’t as good as other schools in the Big Ten.” To which you will say, “So, he’s a bad recruiter.” And around and around we go. Ok, I’ll take the last 16 seasons, you can hang your hat on seasons 17- 20 seasons ago. 17-20 seasons ago resemble nothing like his first 3 years at Holy Cross, while those first three seasons fall right in line with the larger 16 game sample size. But all the power to you for pretending to see what you want to see from Carmody’s tenure so far. I wish I had that will power!
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Post by sader1970 on Jan 7, 2019 20:00:50 GMT -5
For you own peace of mind, perhaps you should consider following another team so you will be a lot less frustrated. It must be hell for you to see such incompetence and so very few lacking that same vision.
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Jan 7, 2019 20:03:50 GMT -5
We can only wish.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Jan 7, 2019 20:08:25 GMT -5
For you own peace of mind, perhaps you should consider following another team so you will be a lot less frustrated. It must be hell for you to see such incompetence and so very few lacking that same vision. No, thanks, I’ll continue following my alma mater. I lose no sleep over sheep who can’t handle an opposing point of view.
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Post by efg72 on Jan 7, 2019 20:36:17 GMT -5
You are obviously more knowledgeable than I, truly love the school, and understand the game. I appreciate your point of view, encourage you to keep your voice alive, but also ask that you understand we aren’t sheep, but loyal followers like you, that have a longer term view for what it will take to rebuild our program
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Post by princetoncrusader on Jan 7, 2019 21:10:02 GMT -5
I am an NU degree holder. I went through the full-time MBA program in Evanston, and graduated from Kellogg in 1983. I took in a few games during the 1981-2 season, where the team played its home games in a dreary building called McGaw Memorial Hall. After that season, the university renovated the facility and home games for the 1982-3 were played at DePaul's on-campus gym. So by the time Carmody become head coach in 2000, the building was already inferior to other Big Ten gyms. (Side note: Carmody's predecessor went winless in Big 10 play and left abruptly to take a job in the NBA.) I suspect over the course of his tenure, the ageing Welsh-Ryan arena and the practice gym became drawbacks to recruiting. Shortly after he was fired, the AD said, "We must do something about Welsh-Ryan Arena." The university sunk $110mm into the redo, and now has a spectacular building that opened in November. One achievement of Carmody's not noted--one of his teams swept the season series from IU, a feat not accomplished by any Wildcat team since the early 1950s.
In short, for decades, NU has had the worst basketball facilities, the highest academic standards and the smallest fan base in the Big 10--not exactly a formula for success.
I do agree that having good 3 point shooters is critical to the success of the PO. When the shots are falling, Princeton can play with anyone. Just ask Bobby Hurley or the coach at USC.
Winning on the road is tough in the Big 10--see the current Illinois team, which lost to NU on Sunday afternoon.
I am not Carmody's agent or his best friend, just a long-time observer of his career at Princeton, NU and HC. I think he still has passion for the game. Go Cross.
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Post by longsuffering on Jan 8, 2019 2:45:06 GMT -5
Regarding Coach BC's accessibility to alumni and fans, I have noticed he has been opening up more in his responses to Dick Lutsk's pre and post game radio interview questions. In the Navy broadcast the coach gave a short, reticent answer and Dick countered with "Why?" and then Bill expanded with a good thorough explanation, which allowed me to learn something. Trust has been built and is now being rewarded.
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