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Post by deep Purple on Dec 17, 2018 7:02:51 GMT -5
Untrue imo....more HC fans care about the Ivy games than they do about the PL games....do you really care about HC-Lafayette more than HC-Harvard? Of course. There's more at stake. Lafayette is a league game, Harvard isn't. And would I rather play Harvard or a caa school like UNH, Villanova or James Madison? I'd rather play the caa school.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 17, 2018 7:11:47 GMT -5
Much rather play Colgate or Fordham than Brown or Dartmouth. And rather play Villanova and UNH than Columbia and Princeton. If we are good enough to get into the FCS playoffs again one day with a very good team - we'll be as eager to participate as Colgate was.
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Post by hc87 on Dec 17, 2018 7:23:34 GMT -5
I would rather play Harvard, Dartmouth and/or Yale than any other PL or CAA school. I don't think I'm alone in this.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 17, 2018 7:49:26 GMT -5
I would rather play Harvard, Dartmouth and/or Yale than any other PL or CAA school. I don't think I'm alone in this. Just don't see the Ivy attraction for HC football now. We have so little in common with them nowadays. Of course I really don't see the BC attraction for HC in football any more either. So there is that.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 17, 2018 8:44:51 GMT -5
Next you all will be debating how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.
Look, Holy Cross football in the Patriot League is what it is. We aren't leaving the PL in our lifetimes. We'll give up football before we do that. So, the schedule is what it is and will be: PL teams, a couple or three Ivies, one or two D-IA teams for pay games and an occasional outlier like CCSU, UNH, etc.
Say what you will here and now but I am pretty confident if we win a lot of these games and win the PL championship, all of us will be excited to see the Crusaders in a "boring" NCAA championship playoff, hopefully winning multiple games.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 17, 2018 10:15:28 GMT -5
Ahtist formerly known as Indianhoop, You're ok with the fact that the 1987 division 1aa national championship trophy sits in Northeast Louisiana's trophy case? Semantics...true fans know that that '87 team was the best in 1-AA that year (or many other years as well). . Too bad the '87 team were not the national champions - that would certainly be a crowning achievement for any HC team. Don't know how many playoff-bound teams HC beat during that undefeated '87 Patriot League Championship season but suspect it was zero. (I know they #1 were in the last regular season poll...sort of like JMU last year...but that playoff system is pretty tough and JMU was not the national champion...and therefore makes no claim they were the best FCS team last year)
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Post by timholycross on Dec 17, 2018 10:57:15 GMT -5
Regardless of what one thinks of the FCS playoffs (certainly subject to criticism, even from supporters like me), there was minimal interest in the proposed Ivy/Patriot bowl game when the league was formed (complete media fabrication) and there is less now. From either side, Ivy or PL. Probably as much chance of it happening as the usual "why isn't HC in Division 3 in all sports except basketball and football" which, as has been stated numerous times, is impossible.
No guarantee in 1987 HC would have won ANYTHING, not that they weren't capable.
Some interesting schools in that tournament: Marshall, App. State, Ark. State, Ga. Southern, Western KY., N. Texas..all CUSA or SunBelt now. And none of them won it.
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Post by JRGNYR on Dec 17, 2018 11:18:04 GMT -5
Western Carolina and I was one of the 13K or so souls there....I dunno, just not a fan of this format...just seems kind of "low-rent" in general. Not too ‘low rent’ for Colgate though. LOL In case you have forgotten the excitement around the first HC FCS playoff game you may want to re-read the recollections of a couple of HC NFLers (!) who were on the squad: goholycross.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=33100&ATCLID=210200775When you have a great team, you just don’t want the season to end. This is a heck of an article.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Dec 17, 2018 11:40:38 GMT -5
Regardless of what one thinks of the FCS playoffs (certainly subject to criticism, even from supporters like me), there was minimal interest in the proposed Ivy/Patriot bowl game when the league was formed (complete media fabrication) and there is less now. From either side, Ivy or PL. Probably as much chance of it happening as the usual "why isn't HC in Division 3 in all sports except basketball and football" which, as has been stated numerous times, is impossible. No guarantee in 1987 HC would have won ANYTHING, not that they weren't capable. Some interesting schools in that tournament: Marshall, App. State, Ark. State, Ga. Southern, Western KY., N. Texas..all CUSA or SunBelt now. And none of them won it. The schools from the Eastern seaboard were all knocked out in the first round. >Maine lost to GA Southern 31-28, GA Southern subsequently lost to App State, 19-0 in the quarters.. >Richmond lost to App State 20-3, App State lost to Marshall 24-10 in the semis. >James Madison lost to Marshall 41-12. Marshall lost to NE La in the finals 43-42. The finals were played in Pocatello ID. First round was Nov 28, Quarters Dec 5, Semis Dec12. In the quarters and semi's, only host team to lose was App State.
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Post by CHC8485 on Dec 17, 2018 12:04:41 GMT -5
Not too ‘low rent’ for Colgate though. LOL In case you have forgotten the excitement around the first HC FCS playoff game you may want to re-read the recollections of a couple of HC NFLers (!) who were on the squad: goholycross.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=33100&ATCLID=210200775When you have a great team, you just don’t want the season to end. This is a heck of an article. That James Greene guy sure could write.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 17, 2018 12:50:02 GMT -5
Regardless of what one thinks of the FCS playoffs (certainly subject to criticism, even from supporters like me), there was minimal interest in the proposed Ivy/Patriot bowl game when the league was formed (complete media fabrication) and there is less now. From either side, Ivy or PL. Probably as much chance of it happening as the usual "why isn't HC in Division 3 in all sports except basketball and football" which, as has been stated numerous times, is impossible. No guarantee in 1987 HC would have won ANYTHING, not that they weren't capable. Some interesting schools in that tournament: Marshall, App. State, Ark. State, Ga. Southern, Western KY., N. Texas..all CUSA or SunBelt now. And none of them won it. The schools from the Eastern seaboard were all knocked out in the first round. >Maine lost to GA Southern 31-28, GA Southern subsequently lost to App State, 19-0 in the quarters.. >Richmond lost to App State 20-3, App State lost to Marshall 24-10 in the semis. >James Madison lost to Marshall 41-12. Marshall lost to NE La in the finals 43-42. The finals were played in Pocatello ID. First round was Nov 28, Quarters Dec 5, Semis Dec12. In the quarters and semi's, only host team to lose was App State. NE Louisiana (who beat perennial power Marshall in the finals) was led by hugely talented and long-time NFL quarterback Stan Humphries but they were far from a one-man or one-year team. Holy Cross gets a brief mention (and an implied shot at their weaker schedule) : www.thenewsstar.com/story/sports/college/ulm/2017/09/27/team-destiny-oral-history-ulms-national-title/707816001/
NLU ended the regular season with 10 wins, two losses and the Southland Conference championship but were relegated to third in the national polls.
Holy Cross and Appalachian State were both ranked higher than the Indians, despite a resume that included a conference title and wins over Georgia Southern, the defending national champion, and Arkansas State, the national runner-up from the previous year.
(Coach) Collins: It pissed me off. Not for me, but for my players. Those kids laid their blood, sweat and tears on the field all season long to be the no. 1 team in the country.
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Post by hc87 on Dec 17, 2018 15:13:10 GMT -5
I wouldn't say there was a "tremendous buzz" around the WCU game in 1983....there were only about 13K at Fitton (granted, big for 2018) as opposed to a very big crowd at Sullivan Stadium vs BC the week before. Brutally cold day....as the article points out, we were very banged up going into the game. Video of the WCU game: Mythical 1987 1-AA game: Holy Cross 38 NE Louisiana 21
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Post by hcpride on Dec 17, 2018 15:45:41 GMT -5
I wouldn't say there was a "tremendous buzz" around the WCU game in 1983....there were only about 13K at Fitton (granted, big for 2018) as opposed to a very big crowd at Sullivan Stadium vs BC the week before. Brutally cold day....as the article points out, we were very banged up going into the game. Video of the WCU game: Mythical 1987 1-AA game: Holy Cross 38 NE Louisiana 21 What many folks don't know/forget about that awesome '83 team (besides mistakenly thinking we were already playing the weaker PL schedule) was that they were ranked #1 in the country the second -to- last week of the season...but then played Doug Flutie's BC and were walloped...thus dropping to #3 in the last poll of the season. Although we were loaded - probably the most talent we've put on the field in at least the last 35 years including All-American s and future NFLer s, Western Carolina itself "boasted two All-Americans (Tiger Greene and Eric Rasheed) and seven players who eventually went on to play in the NFL, including Greene, Dean Biasucci, Louis Cooper and Clyde Simmons." Heading into the playoff game v HC, their only two losses were to Clemson and Wake Forest.
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Post by hc87 on Dec 17, 2018 16:17:15 GMT -5
Parlor game, the '83 team might have had a few more "stars" but imo the '87 team was a little bit better. Would love to have seen the '87 O go against the '83 D.
The 1983 regular season schedule wasn't appreciably bettah than the '87 one imo. Bettah but really not by much.
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Post by timholycross on Dec 17, 2018 16:30:29 GMT -5
I wouldn't say there was a "tremendous buzz" around the WCU game in 1983....there were only about 13K at Fitton (granted, big for 2018) as opposed to a very big crowd at Sullivan Stadium vs BC the week before. Brutally cold day....as the article points out, we were very banged up going into the game. Video of the WCU game: Mythical 1987 1-AA game: Holy Cross 38 NE Louisiana 21 What many folks don't know/forget about that awesome '83 team (besides mistakenly thinking we were already playing the weaker PL schedule) was that they were ranked #1 in the country the second -to- last week of the season...but then played Doug Flutie's BC and were walloped...thus dropping to #3 in the last poll of the season. Although we were loaded - probably the most talent we've put on the field in at least the last 35 years including All-American s and future NFLer s, Western Carolina itself "boasted two All-Americans (Tiger Greene and Eric Rasheed) and seven players who eventually went on to play in the NFL, including Greene, Dean Biasucci, Louis Cooper and Clyde Simmons." Heading into the playoff game v HC, their only two losses were to Clemson and Wake Forest. The big "loss" in 1983 was to Harvard. Actually it was a 10-10 tie, but it ended an 8 game winning streak; even worse, Gill Fenerty hurt his shoulder, missed the next two games and left the WC game very early as the injury reoccurred.
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Post by hcpride on Dec 17, 2018 16:50:47 GMT -5
What many folks don't know/forget about that awesome '83 team (besides mistakenly thinking we were already playing the weaker PL schedule) was that they were ranked #1 in the country the second -to- last week of the season...but then played Doug Flutie's BC and were walloped...thus dropping to #3 in the last poll of the season. Although we were loaded - probably the most talent we've put on the field in at least the last 35 years including All-American s and future NFLer s, Western Carolina itself "boasted two All-Americans (Tiger Greene and Eric Rasheed) and seven players who eventually went on to play in the NFL, including Greene, Dean Biasucci, Louis Cooper and Clyde Simmons." Heading into the playoff game v HC, their only two losses were to Clemson and Wake Forest. The big "loss" in 1983 was to Harvard. Actually it was a 10-10 tie, but it ended an 8 game winning streak; even worse, Gill Fenerty hurt his shoulder, missed the next two games and left the WC game very early as the injury reoccurred. Remember it well. That wet tie and losses to Flutie's BC (who beat Alabama the following week) and national championship runner-up Western Carolina were the only '83 blemishes. A few years later (late 80's-early 90's) , playing PL competition without BC or the playoffs, the schedule was a bit lighter...
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Post by unhfan on Dec 17, 2018 16:52:02 GMT -5
UNHFAN, c'mon we're a tiny school. How many HC fans do you think would actually be willing and able to scramble around and fly to an FCS Championship game, across the country, with a week or two notice, in the middle of the Winter? This is frankly where the FCS playoffs fails for us. You cannot have a playoff system of this magnitude. It is interminable and inaccessible, even for die hard fans like myself. Plus, what works for a large state school like UNH may be different than what will work for HC. That being said, if dangling the chance to compete for a national championship is landing us better recruits, or if the players prefer it, so be it. However, I've seen no such proof of this since we went back to the auto-bid. By the way, where is it stated that the champions of two similar FCS conferences cannot agree to have game at the higher seeded teams field at the end of the season, call it a bowl or whatever you wish? I'm not saying you're going to get 70,000 fans, but I'm sure that with the enthusiasm of the season still palpable, you'll get a nice crowd, and it would be exciting for the host school and community. This is what can be considered a "reasonable goal" for a school like HC. So your answer is to play an Ivy League school call it a bowl game and the only people that know it happen are those that show up. I can tell you UNH’s playoff run and being on ESPN for games has helped recruiting. For me it comes down to the chance to win a national title. But if you prefer playing Harvard with the same size crowd you get in the regular season all you my friend. I like the idea of kids getting a ring.
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Post by timholycross on Dec 17, 2018 16:57:21 GMT -5
UNHFAN, c'mon we're a tiny school. How many HC fans do you think would actually be willing and able to scramble around and fly to an FCS Championship game, across the country, with a week or two notice, in the middle of the Winter? This is frankly where the FCS playoffs fails for us. You cannot have a playoff system of this magnitude. It is interminable and inaccessible, even for die hard fans like myself. Plus, what works for a large state school like UNH may be different than what will work for HC. That being said, if dangling the chance to compete for a national championship is landing us better recruits, or if the players prefer it, so be it. However, I've seen no such proof of this since we went back to the auto-bid. By the way, where is it stated that the champions of two similar FCS conferences cannot agree to have game at the higher seeded teams field at the end of the season, call it a bowl or whatever you wish? I'm not saying you're going to get 70,000 fans, but I'm sure that with the enthusiasm of the season still palpable, you'll get a nice crowd, and it would be exciting for the host school and community. This is what can be considered a "reasonable goal" for a school like HC. So your answer is to play an Ivy League school call it a bowl game and the only people that know it happen are those that show up. I can tell you UNH’s playoff run and being on ESPN for games has helped recruiting. For me it comes down to the chance to win a national title. But if you prefer playing Harvard with the same size crowd you get in the regular season all you my friend. I like the idea of kids getting a ring. Trust me, unhfan,that idea's deader than (insert some old white male's name here)'s you-know-what.
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Post by sader1970 on Dec 17, 2018 16:57:33 GMT -5
UNH, you had me up to: Pretty sure the players get rings when they win the league championship. But I know what you mean . . . . national championship ring.
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Post by realism on Dec 17, 2018 19:04:02 GMT -5
So your answer is to play an Ivy League school call it a bowl game and the only people that know it happen are those that show up. I can tell you UNH’s playoff run and being on ESPN for games has helped recruiting. For me it comes down to the chance to win a national title. But if you prefer playing Harvard with the same size crowd you get in the regular season all you my friend. I like the idea of kids getting a ring. ESPN's prime time Saturday football broadcast of the North Dakota State-Colgate game drew 1.8 million viewers. Per this link, "the FCS playoff game on ESPN outrated every college basketball game which was shown last week, the MLS Cup, and 4 of 5 NBA games." viewers. www.reddit.com/r/CFB/comments/58gmj/the_colgatenorth_dakota_state_game_had_over_18/Actual data is available here: www.showbuzzdaily.com/articles/skedball-weekly-sports-tv-ratings-12-3-12-9-18.htmlI think there are many aspects of the FCS playoff that make it unattacrtive. But, it's hard for me to see HC kissing off this kind of P.R..
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Post by deep Purple on Dec 17, 2018 19:50:22 GMT -5
UNHFAN, c'mon we're a tiny school. How many HC fans do you think would actually be willing and able to scramble around and fly to an FCS Championship game, across the country, with a week or two notice, in the middle of the Winter? This is frankly where the FCS playoffs fails for us. You cannot have a playoff system of this magnitude. It is interminable and inaccessible, even for die hard fans like myself. Plus, what works for a large state school like UNH may be different than what will work for HC. That being said, if dangling the chance to compete for a national championship is landing us better recruits, or if the players prefer it, so be it. However, I've seen no such proof of this since we went back to the auto-bid. By the way, where is it stated that the champions of two similar FCS conferences cannot agree to have game at the higher seeded teams field at the end of the season, call it a bowl or whatever you wish? I'm not saying you're going to get 70,000 fans, but I'm sure that with the enthusiasm of the season still palpable, you'll get a nice crowd, and it would be exciting for the host school and community. This is what can be considered a "reasonable goal" for a school like HC. So your answer is to play an Ivy League school call it a bowl game and the only people that know it happen are those that show up. I can tell you UNH’s playoff run and being on ESPN for games has helped recruiting. For me it comes down to the chance to win a national title. But if you prefer playing Harvard with the same size crowd you get in the regular season all you my friend. I like the idea of kids getting a ring. Not only does it help recruiting but its the one recruiting chip we have over them.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 17, 2018 22:02:26 GMT -5
As someone who has been following FCS football since 1994 (die-hard William & Mary fan through 2005, ultimate Holy Cross fan since), I have always been a follower of the playoffs and watch bits and pieces of the games on ESPN when I can. I remember watching Colgate play Western Illinois in the snow in Hamilton and rooted for them en route to Chattanooga because they were the non-scholarship underdog -- I had no PL connection at the time. The FCS level showcases some damn good football. My comments on a PL-Ivy Bowl Game are as follows:
1) I admit such a game could be pretty cool. Yankee Stadium and the MLS stadium in Philly would be my top two choices for host sites. Game could be played same weekend as FCS National Championship and could be held IN ADDITION to Patriot League playoff participation. In the one out of thirty years that we have a team make it to the National Championship Game, our second place team would represent on a week's notice. 2) I would take playoff participation 10 times out of 10 over a PL-Ivy Bowl Game. 3) THIS GAME WILL NEVER HAPPEN. THE IVY LEAGUE WILL NEVER END IT'S 70-YEAR POST-SEASON BAN IN ORDER TO PROMOTE THE PATRIOT LEAGUE. 4) Ten years ago, I would have said that it was only a "matter of time" before the Ivies joined the FCS playoffs. Maybe a couple of presidents retire and it would be on the table. Ivy League football has gotten steadily better and better over the past twenty years. In 1992, the Ivy champ gets boat-raced in the I-AA playoffs, in 2018 I could say with a straight face that Princeton could POSSIBLY beat anyone in the country not named North Dakota State. Unfortunately, because of the increased visibility of long-term safety concerns surrounding the game of football, it is my belief that this will be the new Ivy League rationale to never extend the season beyond ten games. This will replace the "they have exams" excuse that has been floated out for decades.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Dec 17, 2018 22:11:47 GMT -5
So your answer is to play an Ivy League school call it a bowl game and the only people that know it happen are those that show up. I can tell you UNH’s playoff run and being on ESPN for games has helped recruiting. For me it comes down to the chance to win a national title. But if you prefer playing Harvard with the same size crowd you get in the regular season all you my friend. I like the idea of kids getting a ring. Not only does it help recruiting but its the one recruiting chip we have over them. Unfortunately for the Patriot League, that chip doesn't appear to be helping much of late. The Ivies as a whole are recruiting at their highest level since de-classification to I-AA. Not to mention the Ivy League has become a very deep league in the last five years. Remember when Columbia only had a JV team and Dartmouth was only trivially better than Georgetown?
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Post by hcpride on Dec 18, 2018 6:03:15 GMT -5
No doubt and unsurprisingly Ivy League prestige + aid trumps Patriot League full schollies in the football recruiting game at this point. (There are exceptions to all generalities, there are differences among the Ivies, and this is not to say the Ivy League is the Pl's main competitor for football recruits in any case).
At the same time, HC did beat Yale and lost to Harvard by just 2 points this past year.
I do agree that the fact we compete for a national championship (beyond the seldom-appreciated Patriot Football Championship) has a certain appeal to competitive high-schoolers that might work to our advantage now and again. No doubt Colgate will highlight their playoff run.
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Post by joe on Dec 18, 2018 6:29:39 GMT -5
Ivy League seems to recruit just fine without dangling the FCS playoff carrot.
NY - what if the schedules were worked out such that PL and IL champs faced off on the final week of the regular season, before the playoffs? For all intents and purposes, just have this be a regular old PL vs IL OOC game.
This was my thought a few years ago when we discussed this. I do like the have our cake and eat it too approach.
I know the Ivies would need to start their schedule earlier and I know Harvard and Yale play The Game then and bla bla bla. There’s always reasons against.
Just seems like most PL teams will be waiting till the cows come home for the great recruitment tool of an FCS playoff run to actually become a thing. How about a game such as this to fill the void of a rivalry and to give some realistic hope of some post season victory on a more regular basis? Also it would be a nice tune up for the playoffs. Plus maybe the IL could be coaxed out of their oath of no post season for a one game tilt? Seems like it could be a nice little tradition.
How would anyone lose in this situation?
Here come the pessimists . . .
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