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Post by hchoops on Jan 27, 2019 17:27:44 GMT -5
I believe that major conferences, even low majors, do not take refs who do HS games
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Jan 27, 2019 18:04:46 GMT -5
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Post by timholycross on Jan 27, 2019 20:54:46 GMT -5
In days gone by, however, guys would have done both high school and college. I remember Charlie Diehl and a couple of his Somerville buddies doing high school games while working college. Also tuned in to the RI state finals on a Providence station and there was Ken Walker (remember him...real entertaining guy).
The money's gotten too good at the college level for sure. The PL has to be paying what the guys in the MAAC are getting ($1500); that's a lot of high school games at $80-$100 per game.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 27, 2019 21:10:39 GMT -5
One of my grad school professors at Northeastern was also a college referee. I guess that most referees today make their living from refereeing??
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Post by A Clock Tower Purple on Jan 27, 2019 21:20:55 GMT -5
In days gone by, however, guys would have done both high school and college. I remember Charlie Diehl and a couple of his Somerville buddies doing high school games while working college. Also tuned in to the RI state finals on a Providence station and there was Ken Walker (remember him...real entertaining guy). The money's gotten too good at the college level for sure. The PL has to be paying what the guys in the MAAC are getting ($1500); that's a lot of high school games at $80-$100 per game. Not necessarily. Being a metro-NY league means more $ due to expenses being higher, and that's what the MAAC is willing to pay to get good officials to call important games, not the stock rate. Also the good New England-based zebras are going to take games at BC, Prov, Rhody, UMass, and UConn before they'd jump on say Laf at HC. That's why HC usually gets the bottom of the barrel, unless a ref is pairing the game with another higher paying game nite before or after within driving distance. My semi-educated guess on this is PL pays about $750 a game for regular season, and a little more for the league tourney games.
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Post by trimster on Jan 28, 2019 7:45:16 GMT -5
One of my grad school professors at Northeastern was also a college referee. I guess that most referees today make their living from refereeing?? I doubt there are many college refs who do 1-2 sports, who make a living doing it. I know an NFL ref who also teaches school. I belelieve the NFL is experimenting with some of their people being full time. Not sure what they would do all year to justify it being full time.
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Post by trimster on Jan 28, 2019 7:46:22 GMT -5
One of my grad school professors at Northeastern was also a college referee. I guess that most referees today make their living from refereeing?? I doubt there are many college refs who do 1-2 sports, who make a living doing it. I know an NFL ref who also teaches school. I belelieve the NFL is experimenting with some of their people being full time. Not sure what they would do all year to justify it being full time.
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Post by res on Jan 28, 2019 9:19:55 GMT -5
res, a nice explanation but the end result would seem to come out the same. That is, PL doesn't pay refs well and, as a result, you'll get the "bottom feeder" refs who aren't good enough to attract the power conferences who pay better. Yes, I agree. The end result is that we end up, for the most part, with lower-rated refs. But I still think it's worth pointing out that this isn't a result of some particular incompetence on the part of league officials which some people seem to imply. Think of the size of a typical Patriot League team budget vs. a typical Big East team budget or a typical ACC team budget. Then look at the size of those leagues TV contracts and other revenue sources. We're just at the other end of the market. When I sometimes decide to buy my local liquor store's own label instead of a premium product, I don't blame the gin.
Anyhow, if we had the top-rated officials doing our games, I'm not sure how much it would cut down on the number of complaints. Go to any message board around college basketball after a close game and you see posters who are always complaining about the quality of the officiating - sometimes including me, though I try my best to refrain. Basketball is a tough game to officiate at times.
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Post by notjuanjones on Jan 28, 2019 9:43:47 GMT -5
res, a nice explanation but the end result would seem to come out the same. That is, PL doesn't pay refs well and, as a result, you'll get the "bottom feeder" refs who aren't good enough to attract the power conferences who pay better. Yes, I agree. The end result is that we end up, for the most part, with lower-rated refs. But I still think it's worth pointing out that this isn't a result of some particular incompetence on the part of league officials which some people seem to imply. Think of the size of a typical Patriot League team budget vs. a typical Big East team budget or a typical ACC team budget. Then look at the size of those leagues TV contracts and other revenue sources. We're just at the other end of the market. When I sometimes decide to buy my local liquor store's own label instead of a premium product, I don't blame the gin.
Anyhow, if we had the top-rated officials doing our games, I'm not sure how much it would cut down on the number of complaints. Go to any message board around college basketball after a close game and you see posters who are always complaining about the quality of the officiating - sometimes including me, though I try my best to refrain. Basketball is a tough game to officiate at times.
All true. But Saturday's AU-Bucknell game was egregious. It wasn't just that they blew calls; it's that they had no control of the game. They were so all over the place that neither team could adjust. Y'all know I'm an AU fan, and I can think of 3-4 ridiculous calls that went in our favor. We also shot 45 free throws, which is crazy. But the biggest deal to me was how the refs let Nathan Davis completely punk them throughout the game. He screamed and cussed them and gesticulated for at least 30 seconds after double technicals were called in the first half against Josh Alexander and Bruce Moore. It went way past working the refs or trying to get a T to fire up his team. It was point-blank intimidation. And they did nothing. He did it again in the second half after Nate Sestina fouled out on a legit charging call, and they finally banged him. None of the refs were guys that get regular work, even at the PL level, and it showed. I get that we won't get the cream of the crop, but it's not too much to ask to be able to competently work a D1 game, is it?
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Post by res on Jan 28, 2019 9:52:40 GMT -5
I don't have a satisfactory answer for you. It's certainly not too much to ask, but I have no idea who else was available to work that game. Saturdays are usually the toughest to schedule because nearly everyone is playing. I have no way to be certain, but I doubt that the PL selected these guys just to save a few bucks. If you see these guys working another PL game in the future, however, I think you're on to something.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 28, 2019 9:57:27 GMT -5
bison137 posted the below on the Bucknell board regarding the officials for the AU v. Bucknell game --
It would help if we just had the average bad PL-level ref. The crew today consisted of three guys who usually ref D3 games, or maybe HS. They were:
1. Danny O'Brien - Has never reffed more than three D1 match-ups in a season. Today was his first assignment since back in November. Think he's good if he doesn't get even one assignment for two months?
2. Chet Walker - Today was his fourth assignment since early December. Except for one Ivy assignment, he normally refs leagues ranked lower than the PL. Normally refs 10-14 D1 games a year - only when they're desperate.
3. Matthew Oblas - Today was his second assignment in eight weeks.
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Post by lou on Jan 28, 2019 9:59:25 GMT -5
Didn't the PL have some kind of partnership with the ACC to, among other things, develop competent referees? Wonder how that is working out these days...
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Post by purplehaze on Jan 28, 2019 10:27:45 GMT -5
One of the solutions would be to adjust the schedule to avoid Wednesday and Saturday games, which are the most packed with games. Tuesdays are much lighter, as are Fridays and Sundays. It would not be difficult at all if the league really wanted to get better refs
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Jan 28, 2019 11:59:42 GMT -5
I think HCFC45 would prefer a crew made up of Moe, Larry and Curley (or even Shemp) over any crew with Bill McCarthy.
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Post by Tom on Jan 28, 2019 12:10:43 GMT -5
I know someone who does some reffing. He can ref for anyone, but 90 percent of the time he works for Big East, ACC, A-10, or occasionally Ivy. He has a full time job in addition to his officiating.
Non Alum and HCFC45 would be happy to officiate games at Hart if they were asked nicely.
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Post by HCFC45 on Jan 28, 2019 23:09:19 GMT -5
For those of you who know me, I've said it for too many years (even going back to Charlie Diehl) the refs we get are not the best! ! I have not seen the Bucknell - American game (I will try to view the replay) but can honestly say that the way it was called would never happen in the ACC, Big East, etc. Believe it or not, there is a difference in the way games are called in the Big East, ACC, etc. and the PL, IVY (I think), etc... ! As a reference, I was with others in attendance at the HC - Michigan. There were 8 fouls called on HC in the first half! Bill McCarthy called 7 of them! ! 2 or more were questionable! Can't wait to see him if and when he comes to Hart this year! !
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Post by hc87 on Jan 29, 2019 2:32:34 GMT -5
It's garbage college basketball....hence garbage basketball officials....
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Post by classof83 on Jan 29, 2019 9:12:20 GMT -5
Does anyone have an update on Jimmy Sotos' injury at Bucknell?
Bison 137?
It didn't look good when I saw the end of the Bucknell/American game
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Post by trimster on Jan 29, 2019 9:14:57 GMT -5
It's garbage college basketball....hence garbage basketball officials.... There is no question HC hoops has predictably regressed since since 1990 but to call it garbage is a bit harsh. Let's not forget the accomplishments of Bucknell and Lehigh in the tourney and the near misses of HC. Also, HC competed well in the last few months with Michigan, Providence and URI and beat UMass. Garbage would be getting dusted by 30 by those teams.
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Post by bison137 on Jan 29, 2019 11:11:22 GMT -5
Does anyone have an update on Jimmy Sotos' injury at Bucknell? Bison 137? It didn't look good when I saw the end of the Bucknell/American game There has been no word as yet, but with a dislocated shoulder I have to think he's out at least a couple of weeks. If that is the case, it likely ends Bucknell's chance of a regular season title.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Jan 29, 2019 11:15:31 GMT -5
Does anyone have an update on Jimmy Sotos' injury at Bucknell? Bison 137? It didn't look good when I saw the end of the Bucknell/American game There has been no word as yet, but with a dislocated shoulder I have to think he's out at least a couple of weeks. If that is the case, it likely ends Bucknell's chance of a regular season title. I think you're being a little too grim. Sotos is a big loss, no question, but I still think Bucknell has enough in their backcourt with McKenzie and Toomer to win the regular season. Andrew Funk will likely have to step up and play more minutes.
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Post by DiMarz on Jan 29, 2019 11:37:14 GMT -5
A dislocated shoulder (subluxation) is not the same as a finger..There are many more ligaments and muscles that get stretched in a dislocation of the shoulder and they they don't return to their original position on their own all the time...Shoulders are a tough injury, rotator cuff, labrum, and all the ligaments in there get affected...
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Post by classof83 on Jan 29, 2019 11:39:45 GMT -5
That is too bad. He is a good player. Is it his shooting shoulder?
My history with a dislocating shoulder is after I did it the first time it kept happening and eventually lead to shoulder surgery that impacted my range of motion slightly.
I am sure he will have a full recovery - but it will take time. I am no doctor, but I would think the impact may be more on his rebounding than shooting since that is when there would be more physical contact.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Jan 29, 2019 11:46:31 GMT -5
Sotos has a ton of assists but has some turnovers as well. His three point shooting has been off during PL games. Like most Bison he has been good at drawing fouls and is a good free throw shooter. If Funk replaces him it looks like a drop off if you believe in KenPom's or sports-reference's numbers. Funk does not draw fouls at all. I guess Mackenzie, a mighty fine player, will move over from shooting guard and take over point guard duties? Sotos was playing 28 minutes a game of late. Maybe Mackenzie goes from 35 minutes to 38 per game, Toomer from 25 to 35, leaving 15 minutes for Funk to pick up?
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Post by classof83 on Jan 29, 2019 12:23:16 GMT -5
I am curious how it affects their pace of play. Sotos does a good job bringing the ball up the court quickly. If McKenzie gets more minutes at the point I wonder if opposing teams will pressure the ball up the court to make him work those shooting legs a little harder.
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