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Post by Sons of Vaval on Apr 23, 2019 10:51:05 GMT -5
That was very apparent after he announced Gibbons would not be returning.
The decision on Gibbons not returning was in all likelihood made well before the new AD was ever hired. Most around Holy Cross were of the thought before the season started that this would be the last year for Gibbons. Not enough recent court success and too much off court baggage.
It wasn't the decision, it was Sullivan's delivery.
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coachrt
Climbing Mt. St. James
Posts: 93
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Post by coachrt on Apr 24, 2019 7:48:09 GMT -5
HC is advertising for a Assistant/Associate coach. Will be interesting to see you is hired. After watching Sullivan's delivery how can he ever be expected to fight for athletics, resources, and communicate with coaches. Keep him in a support role on staff but I'm sure he knows this situation will be his undoing for any shot at the AD position.
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Post by timholycross on Apr 24, 2019 8:17:44 GMT -5
Didn't see the ad, but I can only assume it's an Interim Associate/Assistant Coach reporting to an Interim Head Coach reporting to an Interim Athletic Director? Are the other staff members still employed? Interim, of course!
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Post by Tom on Apr 24, 2019 10:28:48 GMT -5
I'm sure he knows this situation will be his undoing for any shot at the AD position. "This situation" being not renewing the contract of a long term coach who had a not-recent history of winning? or that the interim AD suspended said coach? or tagging the replacement with the title interim? Maybe all of the above? I don't know enough about our interim/acting AD to say whether or not he should be seriously considered for the job. However I don't think his handling of the women's basketball staff will be a major factor if someone else lands the job. Unless one of TPTB is a huge Coach Gibbons supporter, women's basketball won't be the undoing of Sullivan's candidacy. At worst, a straw that tips a very evenly balanced scale between him and another candidate.
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coachrt
Climbing Mt. St. James
Posts: 93
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Post by coachrt on Apr 24, 2019 10:39:15 GMT -5
I'm sure he knows this situation will be his undoing for any shot at the AD position. "This situation" being not renewing the contract of a long term coach who had a not-recent history of winning? or that the interim AD suspended said coach? or tagging the replacement with the title interim? Maybe all of the above? I don't know enough about our interim/acting AD to say whether or not he should be seriously considered for the job. However I don't think his handling of the women's basketball staff will be a major factor if someone else lands the job. Unless one of TPTB is a huge Coach Gibbons supporter, women's basketball won't be the undoing of Sullivan's candidacy. At worst, a straw that tips a very evenly balanced scale between him and another candidate. I agree and your right the handling of this situation is just a factor not the deciding factor. However, if he can't graciously terminate a long time successful employee, it doesn't say much about his ability to deal with sensitive/unpopular decisions that need to be made.
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Post by Ray on Apr 24, 2019 17:37:06 GMT -5
"This situation" being not renewing the contract of a long term coach who had a not-recent history of winning? or that the interim AD suspended said coach? or tagging the replacement with the title interim? Maybe all of the above? I don't know enough about our interim/acting AD to say whether or not he should be seriously considered for the job. However I don't think his handling of the women's basketball staff will be a major factor if someone else lands the job. Unless one of TPTB is a huge Coach Gibbons supporter, women's basketball won't be the undoing of Sullivan's candidacy. At worst, a straw that tips a very evenly balanced scale between him and another candidate. I agree and your right the handling of this situation is just a factor not the deciding factor. However, if he can't graciously terminate a long time successful employee, it doesn't say much about his ability to deal with sensitive/unpopular decisions that need to be made. That press conference may have been awkward, but I don't think "not gracious" is an objective view of it either.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 24, 2019 20:01:42 GMT -5
Cautious, business-like and safe comes to mind. Certainly no one has been ripped on either side, but it feels like there is another sneaker to fall.
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Post by HCFC45 on Apr 24, 2019 21:51:53 GMT -5
Cautious, business-like and safe comes to mind. Certainly no one has been ripped on either side, but it feels like there is another sneaker to fall.Yes, indeed, sad to say, IT'S CALLED A LAWSUIT!!!
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Post by joshua on Apr 25, 2019 0:00:48 GMT -5
Coach gibbons was the best coach and was great with the girls he coached. Coach gibbons was treated awful. Holycross needs to hire a perminated ad and it needs to happen soon. Coach gibbons will be missed up at holycross by me and dont know how interm ad lets someone go because of the last couple of seasons they should look at other programs that don't even make playoffs womans lacrosse mens lacrosse mens hockey Whos always done in round 1 but give that coach an extension but get rid of the best coach at holycross in coach gibbons its awful I'm behind coach gibbons 100%
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Post by gks on Apr 25, 2019 6:17:19 GMT -5
Cautious, business-like and safe comes to mind. Certainly no one has been ripped on either side, but it feels like there is another sneaker to fall.Yes, indeed, sad to say, IT'S CALLED A LAWSUIT!!!It should surprise no one if there is a law suit or settlement talks behind the scenes. I'm sure Coach Gibbons feels his reputation has been destroyed by this. In his issued statements he sounds like someone who is in settlement talks.
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Post by purplehaze on Apr 25, 2019 8:30:04 GMT -5
I can't believe BG's apologists are still out there - give it a rest and let us know when you realize the lousy job he did while bucknell, lehigh and the academies passed us most years. He was coasting with this 'family-community service' agenda while having one of the largest budgets in the PL - When our minor sports coaches are retained for 20-30 years (with sub-par budgets), get back to me.
How much do you want to bet he'll find another comparable job in collegiate basketball ? I'll take the 'not happening' side on that question.
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Post by gks on Apr 25, 2019 8:44:22 GMT -5
I can't believe BG's apologists are still out there - give it a rest and let us know when you realize the lousy job he did while bucknell, lehigh and the academies passed us most years. He was coasting with this 'family-community service' agenda while having one of the largest budgets in the PL - When our minor sports coaches are retained for 20-30 years (with sub-par budgets), get back to me. How much do you want to bet he'll find another comparable job in collegiate basketball ? I'll take the 'not happening' side on that question. I've always said that they should have just fired him. Didn't have the guts to. HC created this mess of suspensions, interim coaches, etc. If you were Gibbons you'd probably pursue a settlement/lawsuit too.
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Post by CHC8485 on Apr 25, 2019 9:23:20 GMT -5
If Holy Cross followed it's procedures (and the terms that may be outlined in BG's contract) vis-a-vis personnel issues, I'm not so sure there is much to settle. They are paying him to the end of his contract and then no longer "doing business." That's how contracts work.
Like it or not, all organizations are now in a position where action is required when any claims of abuse of power arise. The past practice of keeping the status quo while you investigate the claim is untenable. It puts an organization in a much worse position with respect to financial liability, public relations - i.e., you knew about this and allowed the situation to continue?? - and plain and simply doing the right thing.
Organizations have long realized this when it comes to financial matters - embezzling, theft, fraud, etc. As soon as someone is suspected of wrong doing, they no longer have access to continue the behavior. The same has now come to any type of personnel matter. If you are suspected of violating organizational norms spelled out in policies & procedures, you are removed from the environment where you MAY have committed the offense.
Going into this season, I honestly think, in the absence of an exceptional season in 2018 - 2019, the Athletic Department and the college was leaning toward moving on from BG - otherwise they would have extended the contract a year or two ago. The personnel issue - whatever it was - required the college to take action when it did because, as outlined above the threshold for action is extremely low today as opposed to even 4 or 5 years ago. It may have made the non-renewal decision easier, but I doubt the personnel issue by itself is the reason they moved on.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 25, 2019 9:32:49 GMT -5
He coached during the entire duration of the investigation. He was suspended as a result of the investigation findings as I recall. If he can prove the investigation findings were faulty perhaps he has a case of the reputation damage being the fruit of a poision tree? I'm just throwing out a trendy term you hear from TV legal analysts. Probably using it incorrectly. But he wasn't suspended immediately.
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Post by CHC8485 on Apr 25, 2019 11:05:38 GMT -5
You are correct. Having gone back and read the Holy Cross release ...
"The suspension comes as the result of an internal investigation into a personnel matter." But the investigation could have been 3 months, 3 weeks or 3 hours old.
We know from that release that the personnel matter "does not involve a claim of sexual harassment, nor does it involve a student." I and others have assumed it has to do with a complaint filed by another employee and thus my comment above.
But there's a huge range of personnel matters beyond sexual harassment and just general harassment of other employees that could lead to suspension.
My guess is they were following whatever protocols they have in place relative to the type of infraction, prior to determining a suspension was merited.
I stand by my general comment about organizations adopting a bias for action when a possible violation of company policy occurs.
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Post by Tom on Apr 25, 2019 14:03:34 GMT -5
In terms of graciously terminating a long term employee, I would expect someone with the name Sullivan to do a better job. We're supposed to be able to tell someone to go to hell in a manner that makes them look forward to the trip
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 25, 2019 15:14:32 GMT -5
In terms of graciously terminating a long term employee, I would expect someone with the name Sullivan to do a better job. We're supposed to be able to tell someone to go to hell in a manner that makes them look forward to the trip I'll drink to that...ethnic stereotyping. Another factor is there is no longer an authority figure with any significant gravitas in the Department. I would imagine that when someone like Ron Perry the elder, who was a pitcher on an NCAA champion baseball team, a guard on an NIT championship basketball team and a legendary winning coach at Catholic Memorial, said to two employees: "OK, you two shake hands and knock it off." people generally knocked it off, got back to work and never wanted to be called into his office again, or God forbid Father Brooks' office. I agree it is a new day however.
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Post by bison137 on Apr 25, 2019 16:04:43 GMT -5
Coach gibbons was the best coach and was great with the girls he coached. Coach gibbons was treated awful. Holycross needs to hire a perminated ad and it needs to happen soon. Coach gibbons will be missed up at holycross by me and dont know how interm ad lets someone go because of the last couple of seasons they should look at other programs that don't even make playoffs womans lacrosse mens lacrosse mens hockey Whos always done in round 1 but give that coach an extension but get rid of the best coach at holycross in coach gibbons its awful I'm behind coach gibbons 100% I think it's safe to say that most neutral observers think that BG did a below-average job during the past decade. If resources are factored in, he didn't do a better job than the other coaches mentioned and did a worse job than some.
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 25, 2019 19:33:05 GMT -5
He started the decade on third base but somehow ended it by getting picked off first base. May prove the old adage that it is easier to get into first place than to stay there.
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Post by timholycross on Apr 26, 2019 13:51:24 GMT -5
Gibbons' teams dominated the league for the first 15 or so years of existence. Most of those years he was playing by the same rules as everyone else (you can perhaps chalk up a couple of titles to HC reviving scholarships quicker than some other schools). Why things went south no one has been able to come up with a good reason for.
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Post by Tom on Apr 27, 2019 8:00:07 GMT -5
Gibbons' teams dominated the league for the first 15 or so years of existence. Most of those years he was playing by the same rules as everyone else (you can perhaps chalk up a couple of titles to HC reviving scholarships quicker than some other schools). Why things went south no one has been able to come up with a good reason for. I have hypothesized for some time that Coach Gibbons was better at recruiting on a no scholarship level playing field than an everybody scholarship level playing field
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Post by longsuffering on Apr 27, 2019 13:50:47 GMT -5
An evidence based hypothesis. Also, many of the best players in program history: Levin, O'Brien, O'Keefe, Kinne, etc. were from New England. I wonder if the recruiting efforts in the Keystone State and elsewhere are as effective as concentrating the hardest closest to home. I have no hard evidence on that but I can understand the positive multiplier effect that local players who succeed can provide.
One year, probably in the RW era but possibly at a WBB game, HC played UMass. I looked at the program and Holy Cross had more players from Massachusetts on it's roster than UMass. I felt pride for HC and disdain for UMass. I'm probably an odd ball but I remember feeling that it was an embarrassment that UMass couldn't recruit more successfully in-state and a feather in HC's cap that they could.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Apr 27, 2019 15:45:42 GMT -5
Gibbons record.
Palazzi preceded Gibbons. In five seasons, Togo's teams never won fewer than 19 games.. > Gibbons took over 1985 season His first five seasons, he also never won fewer than 19 games. > Between 1991 and 1997, Gibbons had only two seasons winning fewer than 21 games. However, scollies for football and M/W basketball were grandfathered for Holy Cross and Fordham. (Fordham left except for football in 1995.) The other members awarded only need-based aid. Scholarships were allowed for M/W hoops for all schools in Jan 97, effective with the 98 season. > Between 1998 and 2003 seasons, HC won at least 21 games every season. Over those six seasons, FCBG's teams garnered five league championships, and one runner up. Beginning in 2004, the record went south. > Between 2004 and 2018, only two championships, and only two seasons with 20 wins, Over the last four seasons, not including 2019. 2015 15-17 2016 13-17 2017 8-22 2018 13-18 Dec 1996 article. www.mcall.com/news/mc-xpm-1996-12-11-3114668-story.htmlNot clear to me how many seasons between 1988 and 1998 that HC M/W hoops did not have any scollie players on the roster. But it appears that most of FCBG's success during his first two decades occurred when HC had a scollie advantage over other PL schools. When that advantage faded and ultimately disappeared, the record for the next 15 years became consistently mediocre.
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Post by bison137 on Apr 27, 2019 16:38:51 GMT -5
Scholarships were allowed for M/W hoops for all schools in Jan 97, effective with the 98 season. Key word in that statement is "allowed". Only HC moved to basketball scholarships in 1998. Lehigh added their first scholarship players in about 2000, Bucknell in 2003, Colgate in 2004, and Lafayette in 2006. American already had scholarships when they joined the league in the 2001-02 season. One big factor in the HC basketball success is that the other league schools didn't have much interest in women's basketball and gave it very little support prior to about 2009. Not only did HC have scholarships in years when others did not, but their expenditures on recruiting, coaching staff etc were significantly greater than the rest of the league. For example, here is what the various PL schools spent on women's basketball in 2003: College , , Holy Cross $1,038,561 American University $1,023,692 Lafayette College $810,098 Colgate University $766,207 Lehigh University $758,457 Bucknell University $599,516 Note that the above includes certain need-based aid as well as the value of scholarships. By 2009, when everyone had scholarships, HC continued to spend more on women's basketball but the gap had been narrowed significantly: College . . Holy Cross $1,305,265 American University $1,226,676 Lafayette College $1,185,669 Colgate University $1,173,292 Lehigh University $1,150,038 Bucknell University $1,051,440
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Post by purplehaze on Apr 27, 2019 16:50:53 GMT -5
Thanks, bison All of this just points out that HC had a heck of a lot of patience with BG as our results worsened
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