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Post by dadominate on Feb 9, 2020 8:20:34 GMT -5
I'm not sure how much we are improving this year relative to our opposition (it is common for various players and various schemes and various other individual and collective factors to improve as a season progresses from beginning to end). That being said, this is one of the worst (W-L) - perhaps the absolute worst - hoops seasons at HC in the last 75 years. agree with both points. i've watched almost every game, and i have not really seen much improvement relative to our opponents or even as a team. some individual players have improved, others either left the program or have regressed. all in all, "we are what our record says we are" and we continue to lose game after game in a weak league. hard to objectively see that as meaningful improvement. in particular, i would have liked to have seen more defensive improvement at this point of the season. it's easy to blame the players' quickness or athleticism, and that is certainly part of the issue, but it is not the entire issue as defense is the most coachable aspect of the game. plenty of teams that are slow afoot can and do still defend well. we have improved very little (if at all) even as we are deep into league play where the level of competition is obviously pretty low. i'm still hopeful/long on nelson, but looking at it objectively, it's hard to imagine his first season going much worse from both a win-loss perspective and all of the players leaving the program. the saving grace will need to be the 2020 class and i agree with sov that they will be the key to whether nelson succeeds or not. he won't have more than a 4-year leash for the 2021 class to mature. season 1 has been an unmitigated disaster (the evaluation of how a coach manages a program begins DAY 1), season 2 will probably be mediocre unless we have another pridgen and a lowder in the class (hopeful that we do), and season 3 will start to be the point that if we aren't winning considerably more than we are losing, the pressure will be on. carmody bought himself time and patience with consistently poor team performance by going to the ncaa tournament in year 1 and having a strong reputation/track record as a head coach prior to hc. this is nelson's first gig. he can't afford to have any more single digit win seasons, especially not a low single digit season like this is turning out to be. while no reflection of the character of our players who do hustle and leave it all out on the court every game, this season has been an embarrassment and you only get one of those as a head coach in my book. the 2020 class is promising, especially martindale, and the optimist in me (and most of us, by virtue of the fact that we are posting here despite the lows of the last decade and the fall from prominence the decades before that!) thinks the red flags are just growing pains in nelson and that he will turn this program around.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Feb 9, 2020 8:35:35 GMT -5
Absolutely correct, dado.
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Post by efg72 on Feb 9, 2020 8:44:05 GMT -5
Improving??? Are you kidding? Next loss is the most ever in the history of the program and on schedule to go 3-29! That is like Moe Howard on the golf course “Look, I’m getting better the holes are getting smaller” Expectations are at an all time low and so are followers of the program, Nelson has a momentous task ahead, wish him well! IMO and With all due respect, based on where the team started with the lost personnel, improvement starts with a baseline few if any on this board ever experienced. My bet is Nelson and the kids never experienced such a low before either, so give them credit for trying to reinvent themselves and bring this program back.Losing is hard and takes a toll on each person over the course of a season, yet this group continues to fight. Given where the program has been for over a decade, save a 2016 magical tour in the playoffs, this finally is the bottom and a place to rebuild. So yes, they have the opportunity to improve each night, but playing a season without a true point guard, at least one powerful big inside and multiple seniors leading the program, becomes an enormous lift for any coach/team. With reinforcements, a few breaks and good fortune of no future departures, this should get better. In the short term small individual improvements might not appear to be important, but longer term yield big results- incremental can be monumental
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Post by rgs318 on Feb 9, 2020 8:59:43 GMT -5
"That being said, this is one of the worst (W-L) - perhaps the absolute worst - hoops seasons at HC in the last 75 years."
hcpride...that is true, but what purpose does making such a statement serve? Do you really think that any HC fans are unaware of that?
Also, you may remember that Coach Nelson said that with a new coach and system it was a bit like having to coach a team of almost all freshmen. Yes, all players improve through the course of a season (well, many of them do) to some extent. But the improvement of some of these players has been good - especially someone like CLS who seemed to stagnate for so long.
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Post by Crosser on Feb 9, 2020 9:08:31 GMT -5
I’m not sure if this team is as bad as some are saying. Sure, our record is abysmal; worst ever probably. But, it seems to me that we’ve been competitive in many (most) games for significant portions of those games. On many occasions they do so against teams that are much stronger on paper. Too many times - we go into some kind of funk/fatigue at critical points in the game - usually toward the end of 1st half or beginning /end of 2nd half. We’ve had a short bench all year, but lately it’s been very troublesome. I don’t care how young and in shape our guys are - and they DO seem to be well conditioned, players in the game for 36-40 minutes are not going to be as effective as those who’ve had occasional blows on the bench. We’ve had 5 players score 20 or more points in games this year and a couple more came within a point or two of reaching that mark. Yes, two of them seem to have departed. It seems to me that if you score around 20+ in a D-game, then your probably a D-1 caliber player. Yes, scoring does not tell the entire story, but most coaches will place a high value on this skill. Defensively, we’ve struggled mightily at times, but there are rays of hope. I believe RW has improved dramatically in that regard. MF is asserting himself more defensively, but still prone to fouls. The overall team defense seems to be making opponents work harder for their shots, but probably hasn’t shown up in any metrics yet. I just believe that our players have the ability to be much better than their record. I give everyone on the squad A+ for effort and never giving up. And I look forward to better days ahead.
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Post by hc6774 on Feb 9, 2020 9:13:53 GMT -5
generally agree with dado but with some these additions
who is embarrassed? were Langel's 3 seasons of 20 losses at Colgate embarrassing?
Does the best PL coach poll thread suggest that while there is a lot of longevity among league coaches, can you say that there is a dominant program/coach? Nelson's recruiting, although difficult in the first half of the season, got more so in the second half [the North Carolina commitment is encouraging]... this difficulty will extend until we start winning.
Nelson as a coach is still unknown and that adds to the recruiting difficulty...
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Post by efg72 on Feb 9, 2020 9:25:09 GMT -5
With respect to comments about others in the league improving, I agree and disagree. For example, Loyola should get much better in the weeks ahead, but they are just learning how to win and when they do that confidence could propel them forward.
While many of our opponents are improving we are as well. Since Lowder and Navy #1, one can look at points in the game where we lose a game. That has moved from the 7 minute mark to the four and under, and games like Colgate and BU #2, were winnable games.
Two possible reasons They don’t take the game seriously or We are making small improvements that allow us to compete for an extended period of time
Is that a lower standard? Certainly uncomfortable, but hitting bottom should be uncomfortable for coaches, players and fans-nobody likes to lose games, lose at work or in life. Perhaps these incremental improvements will allow us to compete for 40 minutes and steal a game in the tournament and lead to a middle of the league finish in 2021
it would be great to have an August tour of Europe to bring the new group together before school starts
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Post by hc6774 on Feb 9, 2020 9:36:22 GMT -5
With respect to comments about others in the league improving, I agree and disagree. For example, Loyola should get much better in the weeks ahead, but they are just learning how to win and when they do that confidence could propel them forward. While many of our opponents are improving we are as well. Since Lowder and Navy #1, one can look at points in the game where we lose a game. That has moved from the 7 minute mark to the four and under, and games like Colgate and BU #2, were winnable games. Two possible reasons They don’t take the game seriously or We are making small improvements that allow us to compete for an extended period of time Is that a lower standard? Certainly uncomfortable, but hitting bottom should be uncomfortable for coaches, players and fans-nobody likes to lose games, lose at work or in life. Perhaps these incremental improvements will allow us to compete for 40 minutes and steal a game in the tournament and lead to a middle of the league finish in 2021 it would be great to have an August tour of Europe to bring the new group together before school starts I like the August trip idea... how does that work with the recruiting calendar...we have a big class of '21s to recruit.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 9, 2020 9:36:51 GMT -5
Lent is almost upon us and I will soon be serving my hiatus penance (actually, probably relief this year) from Crossports. I am giving myself a small "out," in that I am in too deep into the basketball prediction contest and will continue to look at that thread and make my predictions. Before I "close the books," I want to chime in here as to the state of Crusader men's basketball (don't get me going on the women who don't have the excuses the men have). First, it seems to me that the pattern of playing close, even leading, in almost every game, leads me to believe that the abilities level is not that far behind most of the rest of the PL, perhaps Colgate excepted (boy, that pains me to write that!). But virtually every game, we fade in the end, sometimes losing double digit leads. In my observation, that's because we have a extremely thin bench which is hurt not just from lack of depth but because we often get key players in foul trouble (read: Faw and Pridgen and sometimes Niego). The rest are ironmaning it and they get 1/4 step slower from fatigue and that's all it takes to just lose, often "going away." Now to use my favorite management term, there is virtually no "synergy" on this team. Unquestionably there has been individual performance improvement with Faw and LeSann as exhibit A and B. That hasn't translated into better results. Whose fault/responsibility is that? Ultimately, the head coach, in this case the present head coach but certainly the most immediate past head coach too. I hate the expression "the cupboard is bare." However, the cupboard in this case was really bare and with the loss of Grandison, Green, then Lowder and Hargis, I'm not sure we even had a cupboard. Now, permit me a minor gripe that hopefully isn't just ego talking. I wasn't "buddies" with any of the basketball coaches but over the years I met all of them on more than one occasion, even grumpy Ralph and Carmody would respond, albeit politely, if I dropped them a note as presumably they understood that I was a long-time season ticket holder and support the team financially. Milan and even Sean would respond more quickly. So, some of this is probably personality (mine and theirs). In a struggling and ultimately unsuccessful first season (unless you think he's going to pull another Carmody-type first year tournament miracle), you'd think that Brett would be looking for allies wherever he could find them. I was personally disappointed that an email that I sent about 2 weeks ago encouraging him and the team did not garner even a sniff of a response. A perfunctory "thanks" would have sufficed as I know he's busy and probably up to his posterior in alligators. Unless all Crossporters and other fans have deluged him with similar notes (somehow I doubt that) that I am on a long to-do list of impending responses, there would seem to be no reason not to have made some response (he did get it, I know his email address). So, in addition to learning how to be a head coach, he also needs to learn how to be a head coach at a small school with a very few, dedicated alum/fans and the need to learn how/when/why to communicate back to those interested enough to encourage him. [Watch, I'll probably get a long note back later today that'll make me feel like a bigger dope than I am ]
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Post by rgs318 on Feb 9, 2020 9:40:00 GMT -5
efg72...I like your post, but could the incoming frosh play in a game overseas in August? I don't think so. If so it would not help much in the coming year season. In August, 2021 however... PS: The statement I first put at the bottom of each post two years ago has never, IMHO, been more applicable!
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Post by HC92 on Feb 9, 2020 10:14:06 GMT -5
Incoming Frosh have definitely played on these summer tours for other schools in the past. If that works for us and there aren’t some self-inflicted limitations on our ability to do this, summer 2021 would give us a lot of new bodies to work with on the tour between the 2020 and 2021 classes. .
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 9, 2020 10:20:02 GMT -5
Some great postings above that provide keen analyses of our struggling program. As we contemplate the future I'd really like to know why Lowder and Hargis left the program and why Copeland isn't playing. Can you imagine if the same thing happened next season?
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Feb 9, 2020 10:25:28 GMT -5
It’s not only Copeland not playing, but he’s not even on the bench. Is he still part of the program? Is he still at HC?
Regardless of what the answers are to those questions, that’s three scholarship players who dressed for the season opener who are no longer on the bench.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Feb 9, 2020 10:31:10 GMT -5
If we vote and agree that this is the worst season ever, can we agree to spend more time focusing on how they can make it better?
I agree with SoV that the upcoming recruiting is of immense importance. Between 2020 and 2021 there are 6 open slots. The good thing about hoops is you don't need an army. If CBN can bring in 2 guys with 1st team all league potential (along with 4 other decent contributors) they can get back in the hunt. The other thing is defense, as others have pointed out. I have no idea how they fix this, not having a coaching bone in my body, but it doesn't take an expert to figure out it needs to get better, either with personnel, or coaching, or both.
So, having the worst season ever means it's all over for good? Well, you guys saying this made me do this:
Hoping The Seven keep battling.
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Post by timholycross on Feb 9, 2020 11:31:39 GMT -5
Is Hargis still a student? All reports here say Lowder still is.
I think in general, we'll hear a thing or two from the players, but, most likely, nothing from the school (if there were any "violation of team rules" statements, they would have been made).
As far as the future goes, who we see on the club a couple years from now will tell us how Nelson gets along with his players. Next year, we'll have a bunch of freshmen. Two years from that, if we have a bunch of freshmen (and some or all of the 2020-21 incoming guys are gone), you'll have your answer.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Feb 9, 2020 11:44:21 GMT -5
Being from NJ, can't imagine MH would have been at the game last Wednesday if he wasn't still a student.
If the guys were losing games by 25-30, being out of it from wire to wire, then I would say CBN is not having any effect. He has to get at least some credit for keeping it from spinning totally out of control.
Guys unfortunately have to play almost (again, almost) perfect to have a chance in any game. As was mentioned, just cannot be missing the front end of 1 and 1s in a tight game. No matter how bad the refs are, still can't be getting fouls 80 feet from the basket. And, yup, have to make shots.
One thing I would like to see down the stretch: some more regular minutes for BV. I still think he can be an effective role player on a good team; just needs to continue to work on his strength (he doesn't have the body to develop bulk, but he should be able to get strong enough to hold his spot on the blocks). Having someone that can hit free throws in the endgame (if they can get winning down the road) is a plus for him.
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Post by Tom on Feb 9, 2020 12:51:36 GMT -5
HC right now seems to be going with a 6 man rotation with Verbeek getting extra minutes when Faw is in foul trouble. Yesterday with both Faw and Niego in foul trouble , Verbeek played a lot of minutes. Mahoney pushed him around a lot, but in general he did all right in there.
===========
One thing about the defections, never mind strict number of players, there's no point guard playing. Even with Lowder, there was no experience at the a key position. Now they're using wings playing out of position. Yesterday, BU had backcourt pressure basically the whole game. Not heavy, just one guy, but enough that fighting through used clock. I was commenting that I didn't know why everybody didn't do that to HC. The guy sitting next to me thought that opponents should keep five back all the time. It's just one of many issues, but it's tough to win in college without a point guard
=========================
Yet another sign that the program is in the dumps: There were basically no HC fans there. In recent years, BU has been the best attended road game for the purple. I think HC's parents outnumbered the generic fans
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Post by trimster on Feb 9, 2020 13:10:35 GMT -5
Does it really matter at this point. Absolutely not......joke of a program at this point Let me be clear that I am talking about this season, not the future. I remain optimistic that this situation will get turned around.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Feb 9, 2020 15:09:47 GMT -5
We have one player who would be a starter on an average or better D1 college basketball team.
Our head coach would need to be a magician to make this team successful.
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Post by bringbackcaro on Feb 9, 2020 15:15:32 GMT -5
Dare I say that Nelson’s career at HC hinges on next year’s freshmen? Why? He has nothing to do with digging the program into the hole it’s in today. We’ve got 4 guys committed right now and are maybe adding another. It would obviously be great to hit on all of these guys, but even hitting on 3-4 would be a pretty good percentage for his first class. If we hit on 3-4, that still only maxes us out at 4-5 key guys. This is a multi-year build, and the program is not going to be back until Nelson is able to string multiple classes together and get us back to having a real D1 roster.
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Post by hchoops on Feb 9, 2020 15:18:11 GMT -5
Rarely happens, but I agree
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 9, 2020 16:22:30 GMT -5
Lent is almost upon us and I will soon be serving my hiatus penance (actually, probably relief this year) from Crossports. I am giving myself a small "out," in that I am in too deep into the basketball prediction contest and will continue to look at that thread and make my predictions. Before I "close the books," I want to chime in here as to the state of Crusader men's basketball (don't get me going on the women who don't have the excuses the men have). First, it seems to me that the pattern of playing close, even leading, in almost every game, leads me to believe that the abilities level is not that far behind most of the rest of the PL, perhaps Colgate excepted (boy, that pains me to write that!). But virtually every game, we fade in the end, sometimes losing double digit leads. In my observation, that's because we have a extremely thin bench which is hurt not just from lack of depth but because we often get key players in foul trouble (read: Faw and Pridgen and sometimes Niego). The rest are ironmaning it and they get 1/4 step slower from fatigue and that's all it takes to just lose, often "going away." Now to use my favorite management term, there is virtually no "synergy" on this team. Unquestionably there has been individual performance improvement with Faw and LeSann as exhibit A and B. That hasn't translated into better results. Whose fault/responsibility is that? Ultimately, the head coach, in this case the present head coach but certainly the most immediate past head coach too. I hate the expression "the cupboard is bare." However, the cupboard in this case was really bare and with the loss of Grandison, Green, then Lowder and Hargis, I'm not sure we even had a cupboard. Now, permit me a minor gripe that hopefully isn't just ego talking. I wasn't "buddies" with any of the basketball coaches but over the years I met all of them on more than one occasion, even grumpy Ralph and Carmody would respond, albeit politely, if I dropped them a note as presumably they understood that I was a long-time season ticket holder and support the team financially. Milan and even Sean would respond more quickly. So, some of this is probably personality (mine and theirs). In a struggling and ultimately unsuccessful first season (unless you think he's going to pull another Carmody-type first year tournament miracle), you'd think that Brett would be looking for allies wherever he could find them. I was personally disappointed that an email that I sent about 2 weeks ago encouraging him and the team did not garner even a sniff of a response. A perfunctory "thanks" would have sufficed as I know he's busy and probably up to his posterior in alligators. Unless all Crossporters and other fans have deluged him with similar notes (somehow I doubt that) that I am on a long to-do list of impending responses, there would seem to be no reason not to have made some response (he did get it, I know his email address). So, in addition to learning how to be a head coach, he also needs to learn how to be a head coach at a small school with a very few, dedicated alum/fans and the need to learn how/when/why to communicate back to those interested enough to encourage him. [Watch, I'll probably get a long note back later today that'll make me feel like a bigger dope than I am ] Let us know on Easter Monday. I
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 9, 2020 18:52:02 GMT -5
OK, I need to quote myself and prove to be a prophet. So, I am either a dope or Brett Nelson has been reading Crossports. The former, I concede, the latter, I strongly suspect. I just got this: Lent can't get here fast enough for me. I think I'll start my hiatus early for everyone's benefit.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on Feb 9, 2020 19:19:23 GMT -5
We have one player who would be a starter on an average or better D1 college basketball team. Our head coach would need to be a magician to make this team successful. We also have 6 "players" who are not performing at a D-1, D-2, D-3, or Worcester Boys Club level right now.....more impactful imho.
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Post by Tom on Feb 9, 2020 20:15:22 GMT -5
Dare I say that Nelson’s career at HC hinges on next year’s freshmen? Why? He has nothing to do with digging the program into the hole it’s in today. We’ve got 4 guys committed right now and are maybe adding another. It would obviously be great to hit on all of these guys, but even hitting on 3-4 would be a pretty good percentage for his first class. If we hit on 3-4, that still only maxes us out at 4-5 key guys. This is a multi-year build, and the program is not going to be back until Nelson is able to string multiple classes together and get us back to having a real D1 roster. I think there's a little perspective thing going on here. I don't think anyone thinks that the freshmen are going to give us a rags to riches tale next year. That being said, if come the March of 2024 when the incoming class are seniors we're looking at the bottom half of the league, there are going to be some annoyed people here
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