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Post by sader1970 on May 7, 2020 8:33:09 GMT -5
[Raising his hand excitedly] "Me, teacher, me teacher, I know the answer!!"
Because while having losing records, last year was the worst year in Holy Cross basketball history . . . . . . EVER! Get it?
Not even incompetent Bill Carmody was worse. The worst record he ever had was a 20 loss season and Brett Nelson came in and lost not 20, not 23, not 25, not 27 but 29 stinkin' losses including against D-3 team. That, at least for me, is an aberration.
Yes, Nelson lost players ("our three best players") but outside of a senior graduating, I assume you mean Grandison and Green. But those were Carmody recruits and they all are lousy players . . . . you would probably call them the tallest midgets.
Every coach loses players to graduation (hopefully). Sorry, I don't buy that excuse.
As bad as Carmody was, he always won at least double digit wins:
2015-16: 15-20 2016-17: 15-17 2017-18: 12-19 2018-19: 16-17
Great record? No, not even close to a "good" record. I am happy that he finally chose to retire. And who expected results that would be worse under Carmody than Milan Brown?
Now, perhaps even more than you, BBC, I sincerely hope he turns this program around like my expectation was when he was hired. I want him to succeed. I want the team to succeed. Ad majorem gloria Sanctae Crucis.
But his record, what I observed and the wholesale transfers from the team are not signs of success. He has proven absolutely nothing to show he is an even adequate coach . . . . yet. If these highly regarded recruits actually demonstrate more than "potential," I will be happy to jump onto the Nelson bandwagon. The same one I was on and fell off of onto my head. Ouch! It hurts.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on May 7, 2020 9:21:16 GMT -5
So, BBC, this coming season means "stabilizing" and not until the following season will we see the corner being turned? And, since the corner won't be turned this season, just stabilization, should we interpret your comments to mean another 3 win season? You know, just keeping things stable. Fewer than 3 wins might then mean lack of success for you? 3,4,5 wins would mean the future looks bright because Nelson has stabilized the program with his much more talented guys and we're all set to win 8-10 wins the following season demonstrating the corner has been turned and with this much higher ceiling we'll be contending for the PL championship after that? “Turning the corner” means being in the top 4 in the PL. I don’t really care how many games we win this year as long as progress is being made. Does it really matter if we win 6 or 8 or 12 games or finish in 10th or 8th or 6th place in the PL? Those are all bad seasons. We have 6 freshman (who likely will not be able to participate in any summer workouts at HC) and another guy likely sitting out this year* so it’s unrealistic to think they are going to come in and immediately start getting this team to compete at a high level right away. *If Gates becomes eligible immediately and Faw and Butler can make significant strides, we may have a chance to get closer to that corner this year. I think I can answer for everyone on this board. The answer is YES, it does matter if we win 6 or 8 or 12 games.
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Post by WCHC Sports on May 7, 2020 9:23:40 GMT -5
All this talk about either losing (by their choice) or forcing (by the coach's efforts) players off the team being an item of good fortune for the team is tough to stand behind. Whether you agree with the facts or not, the opinion of if it helps is sort of a losing effort. What do I mean by that? Yes, with those players (who at least some HC coach current/previously wanted) we lost, and lost a lot. But imagine the players coming in after them that these HC coaches DIDN'T want? Will they be that much better? Why weren't they considered part of the equation previously?
BN's strategy to me is like him coming upon a cancer-ridden patient. He immediately operates to chop out tumors all over they body, but doesn't use a scalpel-- he uses a cleaver. And what's left is a cancer-free patient, but not much of a healthy patient in a practical/medical sense. Does that make him a good doctor?
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Post by rgs318 on May 7, 2020 9:24:20 GMT -5
I would add that 6th place (although not ideal) is certainly better than 10th...so that does matter as well.
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Post by bringbackcaro on May 7, 2020 10:05:05 GMT -5
“Turning the corner” means being in the top 4 in the PL. I don’t really care how many games we win this year as long as progress is being made. Does it really matter if we win 6 or 8 or 12 games or finish in 10th or 8th or 6th place in the PL? Those are all bad seasons. We have 6 freshman (who likely will not be able to participate in any summer workouts at HC) and another guy likely sitting out this year* so it’s unrealistic to think they are going to come in and immediately start getting this team to compete at a high level right away. *If Gates becomes eligible immediately and Faw and Butler can make significant strides, we may have a chance to get closer to that corner this year. I think I can answer for everyone on this board. The answer is YES, it does matter if we win 6 or 8 or 12 games. My point is that all of those results are well below the bar for even an average season for what Holy Cross basketball should be (at least by my expectations -- maybe they're too high?), so I don't really care about debating the different between a bad, kinda bad, very bad, wicked bad, wicked wicked bad, etc. season -- none are acceptable.
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Post by bringbackcaro on May 7, 2020 10:08:08 GMT -5
All this talk about either losing (by their choice) or forcing (by the coach's efforts) players off the team being an item of good fortune for the team is tough to stand behind. Whether you agree with the facts or not, the opinion of if it helps is sort of a losing effort. What do I mean by that? Yes, with those players (who at least some HC coach current/previously wanted) we lost, and lost a lot. But imagine the players coming in after them that these HC coaches DIDN'T want? Will they be that much better? Why weren't they considered part of the equation previously? BN's strategy to me is like him coming upon a cancer-ridden patient. He immediately operates to chop out tumors all over they body, but doesn't use a scalpel-- he uses a cleaver. And what's left is a cancer-free patient, but not much of a healthy patient in a practical/medical sense. Does that make him a good doctor? So far, the players who left have ended up at the following schools: - St. Francis
- Union
- Miami Dade Community College
We shall see where the others end up, but the question remains for how many healthy body parts that patient actually had to begin with.
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Post by sader1970 on May 7, 2020 10:12:09 GMT -5
Can't speak for anyone else, BBC, but you are persistent if nothing else.
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Post by HC92 on May 7, 2020 10:23:51 GMT -5
All this talk about either losing (by their choice) or forcing (by the coach's efforts) players off the team being an item of good fortune for the team is tough to stand behind. Whether you agree with the facts or not, the opinion of if it helps is sort of a losing effort. What do I mean by that? Yes, with those players (who at least some HC coach current/previously wanted) we lost, and lost a lot. But imagine the players coming in after them that these HC coaches DIDN'T want? Will they be that much better? Why weren't they considered part of the equation previously? BN's strategy to me is like him coming upon a cancer-ridden patient. He immediately operates to chop out tumors all over they body, but doesn't use a scalpel-- he uses a cleaver. And what's left is a cancer-free patient, but not much of a healthy patient in a practical/medical sense. Does that make him a good doctor? So far, the players who left have ended up at the following schools: - St. Francis
- Union
- Miami Dade Community College
We shall see where the others end up, but the question remains for how many healthy body parts that patient actually had to begin with. From a strictly basketball perspective, St. Francis is basically a lateral move. The other two are destinations of guys we believe to have been walk-ons (though there is some question re: Sandy). Lowder and Pridgen will almost definitely move up in level from where HC is. Niego certainly could as well. Yeutter was a good walk-on who I’m guessing will go to a high academic D3. Not sure where Verbeek will wind up. Probably D3 if I had to bet but nothing would shock me with as many open spots as there are around the country.
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Post by dadominate on May 7, 2020 10:29:46 GMT -5
All this talk about either losing (by their choice) or forcing (by the coach's efforts) players off the team being an item of good fortune for the team is tough to stand behind. Whether you agree with the facts or not, the opinion of if it helps is sort of a losing effort. What do I mean by that? Yes, with those players (who at least some HC coach current/previously wanted) we lost, and lost a lot. But imagine the players coming in after them that these HC coaches DIDN'T want? Will they be that much better? Why weren't they considered part of the equation previously? BN's strategy to me is like him coming upon a cancer-ridden patient. He immediately operates to chop out tumors all over they body, but doesn't use a scalpel-- he uses a cleaver. And what's left is a cancer-free patient, but not much of a healthy patient in a practical/medical sense. Does that make him a good doctor? good points/analogy. if we start winning, and start winning fast, then nelson's strategy will have been a success despite the poor optics of the mass exodus out of the program and a historically horrible first season. every poster here is hopeful for that. if we do not start winning soon, nelson assumes responsibility for the direction he has taken the program. having x freshmen is not an excuse next year for nelson... if he had been better able to retain his roster, lowder and pridgen would have been sophomores, niego a junior, hargis a junior, etc. the purge is either part of his process intentionally or an inability to retain players. in either case, the buck stops at the top. being an optimist, i am hopeful that nelson can coach what is now unquestionably his kind of roster. if he can coach, i expect 12 wins this year, hopefully including a win in the pl tournament. that's still a pretty bad season (we're talking about the patriot league here!) and would be equal to the worst win total in the disappointing carmody era. setting the bar any lower than this is unacceptable. p.s. - the number of wins do matter. where we finish in the league does matter. insane to think otherwise!
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Post by WCHC Sports on May 7, 2020 10:34:17 GMT -5
HC92, I agree with your insight, and BBC, I don't necessarily disagree with you either. I always go back to analogies. I was 16 I bought a 1986 Chevrolet Celebrity with blue velour interior for $1,000, steel body, paint chipping off. It was a "dog." But I was the oldest in my crew, so we always had somebody to drive. Prior to that, we always had to take the "Huffy Express," or the "Nike Express." Did I like the car? Did I impress any of my other teenage friends? Hell no. But did I like that I could drive to work and didn't have to walk or take the bus? You bet your ass!
So BBC, these players that left weren't going to Duke and Kentucky and Oregon after they transferred out. I'm not lamenting losing them in the same way that I would say, Torey or Keith or Tim or Kevin when I was at HC. But it's one thing to say you're okay with trimming the fat when you have an embarrassment of riches. It's another thing to say we're rationing food further during a famine.
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Post by hceconhist on May 7, 2020 10:37:07 GMT -5
Look we all want HC basketball to win and for Nelson to succeed. I just don’t see him as the second coming. If, however, he is the coach you suggest, and the PL is a truly bad league, he will deliver a winning record next season. We all know neither assumption would be rational, but anything under 9/10 wins next season will be as disappointing as his first year at the helm. By giving the HC community the 2019-20 season he did, the bar for improvement is low, but we should demand and expect more than marginal progress. For those of us that question what took place last season, that is now in the past and can’t be changed. We need to look forward and expect success and a brighter future. If his recruits are as talented as he suggests, that means he can recruit which is a good thing. The outstanding questions around his ability to teach and develop players, manage his roster, create a winning mindset, and coach during the game remain unanswered. We all all want those questions to be answered with a YES. Btw i enjoy your youthful arrogance, so keep it up it creates a few good laughs during these strange times. I’m just curious why you seem to think last year was an aberration from the previous 10 years, and, in particular, the previous season when we finished in last place in the PL then lost our 3 best players? Those are the years that set the tone for last year, not anything that Nelson came in and radically changed on his own. I'm not sure how you can say last year was NOT an aberration for the program. 1. We only won two PL games and failed to even compete in many of the games we lost. 2. We lost to a non-DI team in the regular season. 3. Several players quit MID-SEASON. 4. We failed to even make the PLT quarterfinals. Even under the worst Kearney, Brown, and Carmody seasons, the teams competed. Kearney was four points away from going back to the PLT finals; Coach Brown was probably a healthy AT away from going to the PLT championship in 2015; and Carmody reached the semifinals in half his seasons. Do the four points outlined above even begin to reach these levels? Yes, efg72 has held leadership roles in several prominent companies, as I'm sure have others on this Board. Therefore, they know that the "how" matters just as much as the "what." AD Blossom cannot complain about the "transfer culture" of NCAA Basketball and students not giving HC their true commitment when the school is not willing to do the same. How many of Coach Willard's players left, or Coach Brown's? I don't care how talented these incoming recruits are (and frankly, you yourself have no idea), they are going to face adversity next season. We'll see how they respond.
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Post by HC92 on May 7, 2020 11:00:44 GMT -5
I was interested in this comment from hceconhist’s post above:
“We only won two PL games and failed to even compete in many of the games we lost.“
I know how painful it felt while we were going through it and there were some ugly ones at the end of the year but I wanted to see how our margin of defeat broke down in our 17 PL losses. Here’s what I came up with:
11 losses with a margin of defeat between 3 and 12 points 4 losses between 13 and 19 points 2 losses between 30 and 43 points (2 of our last 3 regular season games)
Interestingly, our lowest margin of defeat in a PL game was 3 in the PLT at Bucknell. Not sure what it all means but wanted to share what I found.
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Post by Tom on May 7, 2020 11:15:50 GMT -5
Minor correction: Coach Carmody reached the quarterfinals in all of his seasons. He made the semifinals in half of his seasons
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Post by Non Alum Dave on May 7, 2020 11:52:16 GMT -5
What dado said - a thousand times over.
I'm hopeful Coach has the horses he wants now. Looking forward to seeing what he can do with them. On paper, it looks like a well rounded group. I'm not expecting much right away, and I have no problem with our lamenting the youth of the team, and the expected growing pains.......I just don't want to hear it from Coach.
As for the former "cast of characters" - the book is far from closed on them. AB and MF have this year; RW has 3 years; Lowder and Pridgen have 3 years; Grandison, Green, Hargis and Verbeek have 2 years; Niego has 1-2 years. There's time for each of them to make their mark, particularly if they end up in good situations where their skills are maximized.
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Post by Non Alum Dave on May 7, 2020 11:53:02 GMT -5
Forgot Sandy....
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Post by sader1970 on May 7, 2020 11:59:39 GMT -5
Cr@pola! NAD's post just reminded me that I am going to have to learn even more name initials, acronyms, etc. with this new cast of characters.
This season, I think I am not going with names or initials for the players, I'm going to use their numbers. Believe the late, great Casey Stengel used to say stuff like "yeah, my guy #7 can really play the game". Good enough for me.
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Post by bringbackcaro on May 7, 2020 12:48:38 GMT -5
All this talk about either losing (by their choice) or forcing (by the coach's efforts) players off the team being an item of good fortune for the team is tough to stand behind. Whether you agree with the facts or not, the opinion of if it helps is sort of a losing effort. What do I mean by that? Yes, with those players (who at least some HC coach current/previously wanted) we lost, and lost a lot. But imagine the players coming in after them that these HC coaches DIDN'T want? Will they be that much better? Why weren't they considered part of the equation previously? BN's strategy to me is like him coming upon a cancer-ridden patient. He immediately operates to chop out tumors all over they body, but doesn't use a scalpel-- he uses a cleaver. And what's left is a cancer-free patient, but not much of a healthy patient in a practical/medical sense. Does that make him a good doctor? good points/analogy. if we start winning, and start winning fast, then nelson's strategy will have been a success despite the poor optics of the mass exodus out of the program and a historically horrible first season. every poster here is hopeful for that. if we do not start winning soon, nelson assumes responsibility for the direction he has taken the program. having x freshmen is not an excuse next year for nelson... if he had been better able to retain his roster, lowder and pridgen would have been sophomores, niego a junior, hargis a junior, etc. the purge is either part of his process intentionally or an inability to retain players. in either case, the buck stops at the top. being an optimist, i am hopeful that nelson can coach what is now unquestionably his kind of roster. if he can coach, i expect 12 wins this year, hopefully including a win in the pl tournament. that's still a pretty bad season (we're talking about the patriot league here!) and would be equal to the worst win total in the disappointing carmody era. setting the bar any lower than this is unacceptable. p.s. - the number of wins do matter. where we finish in the league does matter. insane to think otherwise! That's garbage and it's rubbish and it's not true. Unless you're so short-sighted that you think results one year after being picked to finish 10th in the PL (with all of the players who you mentioned above) -- after finishing 10th in the PL the previous season -- is more important than resetting the trajectory of the program going forward. If it is clear that the group Nelson brought in is better than the group they replaced, Nelson will have made the right decision for the future of the program. If the guys who come in can't dribble and we have more roster turnover, I would hightail it off the bandwagon so fast I'd be like Carl Lewis. The simple fact of the matter is that a program that finishes in last place in the PL, loses it's three best players, and then gets picked to finish last in the PL the following year (by a wide margin) is not going to be turned around one year later.
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Post by hceconhist on May 7, 2020 13:15:07 GMT -5
Minor correction: Coach Carmody reached the quarterfinals in all of his seasons. He made the semifinals in half of his seasons Brain fart while holding a two-month old.
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Post by longsuffering on May 7, 2020 13:31:15 GMT -5
Cr@pola! NAD's post just reminded me that I am going to have to learn even more name initials, acronyms, etc. with this new cast of characters. This season, I think I am not going with names or initials for the players, I'm going to use their numbers. Believe the late, great Casey Stengel used to say stuff like "yeah, my guy #7 can really play the game". Good enough for me. Casey Stengel: "The key to management is to keep the four guys who hate you away from the five guys who haven't made up their minds."
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Post by hceconhist on May 7, 2020 13:52:28 GMT -5
I was interested in this comment from hceconhist’s post above: “We only won two PL games and failed to even compete in many of the games we lost.“ I know how painful it felt while we were going through it and there were some ugly ones at the end of the year but I wanted to see how our margin of defeat broke down in our 17 PL losses. Here’s what I came up with: 11 losses with a margin of defeat between 3 and 12 points 4 losses between 13 and 19 points 2 losses between 30 and 43 points (2 of our last 3 regular season games) Interestingly, our lowest margin of defeat in a PL game was 3 in the PLT at Bucknell. Not sure what it all means but wanted to share what I found. Interesting. More to my point, this year, we lost 12 PL games by 10 points or more, or 2/3 of our games. No one has come close to that. This was done quickly, so I could be off by 1-2 each year. 2010: 1, 7.4% of PL games 2011: 2, 14.9% of PL games 2012: 4, 28.75% of PL games 2013: 5, 35.71% of PL games 2014: 3, 16.67% of PL games 2015: 5, 27.78% of PL games 2016: 9, 50% of PL games 2017: 6, 33% of PL games 2018: 4, 22.22% of PL games 2019:7, 38.89% of PL games 2020: 12,67% of all PL games
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Post by Tom on May 7, 2020 13:54:53 GMT -5
It was really nit picking but at least it reinforces your point. I brought it up because as terrible as the regular season was consistently under Coach Carmody, they got more than their fair share of PL tourney upsets, even without that first four game run. The flip side is that the regular seasons were so bad they were always the under dog and never had a chance to be upset
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Post by hceconhist on May 7, 2020 14:02:14 GMT -5
It was really nit picking but at least it reinforces your point. I brought it up because as terrible as the regular season was consistently under Coach Carmody, they got more than their fair share of PL tourney upsets, even without that first four game run. The flip side is that the regular seasons were so bad they were always the under dog and never had a chance to be upset Sorry, humor doesn't translate well over a message board; I had no issue with the correction!
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Post by longsuffering on May 7, 2020 14:42:27 GMT -5
A great orator (well, actually Rev. Jesse Jackson) said: "We came over in different ships but we're all in the same boat now."
So, while I prefer the approach Chesney took in football to coach up the players you inherit and fold in your recruits one class at a time, with each player being an equally proud Crusader, I'm in the boat with the new players now. Go Crusaders!
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Post by Tom on May 7, 2020 14:58:15 GMT -5
It was really nit picking but at least it reinforces your point. I brought it up because as terrible as the regular season was consistently under Coach Carmody, they got more than their fair share of PL tourney upsets, even without that first four game run. The flip side is that the regular seasons were so bad they were always the under dog and never had a chance to be upset Sorry, humor doesn't translate well over a message board; I had no issue with the correction! No need to be sorry. Trouble translating humor is why I shied away from the opening about a brain "fart" and the fact you were holding someone in the age group known for pooping their diapers a lot. Low brow juvenile humor, but I'm kind of juvenile
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Post by Tom on May 7, 2020 14:59:57 GMT -5
A great orator (well, actually Rev. Jesse Jackson) said: "We came over in different ships but we're all in the same boat now." So, while I prefer the approach Chesney took in football to coach up the players you inherit and fold in your recruits one class at a time, with each player being an equally proud Crusader, I'm in the boat with the new players now. Go Crusaders! At this point, I'll be happy if the same boat we're all in doesn't have the name Titanic.
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