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Post by hcpride on Aug 23, 2021 5:01:01 GMT -5
It's very difficult to judge teams from different eras for a host of reasons....but of course I'll try . The mid to late 60s and 70s HC teams were "University" i.e the top level of college football but really in name only. There were some great players and decent teams but we were really "University" level in name only, most of our schedules then had at least half Ivy/Yankee Conference opponents or other low D1 level opponents like Villanova, Colgate etc. The "82-'91 teams were probably situated at the best level for a school like Holy Cross. Very good 1-AA teams but not playing at the level of earlier Crusader teams. The '92-'12 teams were mostly hamstrung by PL rules (non-scholly etc.) and we mostly labored during this era. It's really only during the last few years that we have approximated where we were during the Carter/Duffner era. Obviously guys are bigger.stronger, faster today than they were in say 1968....but relative to other schools we are getting back to the level we should be at, that is a very strong FCS program for the size of our school etc. Given the fact that we are FAR from being a top FCS team I do not think we are ‘approximating’ the top Carter/Duffner teams. It is true we are, IMHO, better than the non-schollie PL era . As a college that recruits for football with scholarships (as opposed to a public high school that has tryouts from the pool of students that show up) I think our size (3k) is not a decisive constraint to being consistently among the top 10-15 FCS teams (and occasionally even better).
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Post by efg72 on Aug 23, 2021 6:37:00 GMT -5
Wofford is a real outlier-the resources for academics, athletics and facilities are first class. Like most schools, Wofford benefits from former players/alumni support-- former Panthers owner Jerry Richardson paid for the stadium, gym and other athletic facilities and support for other campus needs and programs. Until he was forced to sell a few years ago, he paid the school for using those facilities during preseason camp for the Panthers. Other families like the Burwell’s have helped fund a number of other programs.
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Post by hc2020 on Aug 23, 2021 7:09:51 GMT -5
Does anybody know the times of practice? Are they open to the public??? I believe practices are generally held at 2:00PM, usually on Father K Field behind the Luth or inside the Luth during inclement weather. Not sure if they are open practices or not, but I think the ones on Father K may be more accessible than the indoor practices where credentials may need to be shown for entry into the facility. Also, masks are required indoors.
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Post by timholycross on Aug 23, 2021 8:04:33 GMT -5
When "4-3" pines for the good old days, which year(s) is he talking about, exactly?
Coach Allen got the program up to 7-4 (or 6-5) in 2000; the next 2-3 years (illness no doubt played some role) the program came about as close to being dropped as it's ever been.
Then Dom (great diamond in the rough that Gilmore and some others saw even though he hardly played qb in high school) came in, 3 good years and a PL championship. Plus, half a great game (offense) vs the eventual FCS champ, Villanova.
The 2010s? Not good, Pujals, Kalif and a few others notwithstanding. Sad end to the Gilmore era.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Aug 23, 2021 10:03:23 GMT -5
I'd like to use Sagarin to compare teams from different eras, say HC in 2010 (ranked vs all of D-1) versus HC of 2021 (ranked vs all of D-1) but he has changed his site and I just cannot figure out how to access the back years for football. I can go back as far as 1998 in his archives but doing so takes you automatically to basketball and I could not switch it to football. Perhaps someone more adept than I (a large universe) can figure it out. It used it be easy.....
The suggestion that the PL has fallen so far that Brian Hall would be the dominant QB today surprises me. His stats are much like the oft-maligned CD's, but maybe the competition was much tougher?
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Post by midwestsader05 on Aug 23, 2021 11:55:25 GMT -5
I often pass on the generational debates of players and teams. I’ve overheard enough Lebron v Jordan debates to know that everyone comes to their side with a lot of confirmation bias and motivated reasoning. Even those conversations that attempt to be more empirical/data driven and less theoretical can’t control for certain variables like how the sport itself has evolved since those era’s, etc. However, I’ll indulge for a few generalizations.
1) Holy Cross’ depth chart in the post scholarship era (and especially the Chesney era) is considerably deeper and higher quality than the non-scholie era of ~1995-2015. We now compete directly (and often win recruiting battles) with a player’s regional FBS Group of 5 schools (i.e. MAC programs for our Midwest recruits), service academies, Colonial and top Ivy Programs. In the non-scholarship era, we might have 1-2 recruits per year that passed over those types of programs to play for HC. Recently, we’ve had 6-10 per class.
2) Now with that being said, I am surprised that the overall level of competition in the PL relative to other FCS conferences hasn’t seemed to improve more in the past 5-7 years. I for one thought that the league’s overall OOC record would improve…especially against the Ivy’s (Didn’t Harvard and a few others complain and threaten to back off the OOC relationship with the PL when we went full scholarship?) Without having the data in front of me, I don’t think the PL has improved on that mark (of course always with some exceptions like the 2018 Colgate team) You could attribute this to multiple factors but I firmly believe that talent has improved up and down both the FBS and FCS in the past 5-10 years. There are simply so many high talent kids out there and the recruiting pool is so much larger. I think about it this way…in the 1980’s and 1990’s there were the Top 10-15 Division 1-A programs and then everyone else. The drop off in talent was considerable. You’d have a few upsets here and there but broadly speaking the blue blood programs dominated for decades. We all know the evolution of the game this century, the changing incentive structures etc but it is no longer a big story if a program catches fire within a year or two (think Coastal Carolina, Liberty, UL-Lafayette in the very obscure Group of 5 category and Cincinnati, UCF or Boise State in larger Group of 5 cohort) Now, I know these teams would not go 12-0 or 11-1 with an SEC or even ACC schedule but they would compete week in and week out as much as half the teams in those respective conferences. Cinci, UCF or Boise State in their good years would probably still go ~9-3/10-2 in the ACC, Big 12 or PAC 12. Was anyone really that surprised when Liberty beat Virginia Tech in 2020?
3) As far as it relates to comparing individual players from 20 years apart (B Hall and CD), it’s really tough to do unless you were there practicing with each player every day. Brian would be the first to tell you that he probably underperformed his Senior year and yes his 2002 stats were fairly close to CD in 2019. However, at his best Brian had some amazing performances in 2000 and 2001 (thinking about the Lafayette and Dartmouth games in 2001, Harvard in 2000 to be exact). Each season and team has it’s own narrative (losing Steve Silva to a season ending injury in game 2 after the Army win was devastating to the 2002 team, but obviously led to the success/turnaround of the 2005 team in his 5th year) There is so much going on behind the scenes every year. I can’t begin to tell you the number of consequential injuries the teams in the early 2000’s had and the knock on effects it created with the lack of depth. It would require several pints somewhere. There is so much we don’t know. Therefore, in many ways we have to approach these conversations with a certain degree of humility and realize that our opinions are just that.
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Fall Camp
Aug 23, 2021 13:02:11 GMT -5
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Aug 23, 2021 13:02:11 GMT -5
I used to report to the group from year to year on the PL vs Ivy composite WL record, very quick to do in the days when “college football data warehouse” was on line. As suggested in post above that was one good, though imperfect, way of gauging the overall strength of the conference. Of course the games varied year to year and PL should have done better when Colgate played three ivies and Georgetown played none than in years when it was the reverse. I’ll try to do another such audit understanding that the Ivy League’s strength may also have changed
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Fall Camp
Aug 24, 2021 9:06:48 GMT -5
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Post by hc2020 on Aug 24, 2021 9:06:48 GMT -5
Hearing that a second scrimmage will take place on Friday at 2:00PM on Father K Field behind the Luth. Not sure whether spectators may attend.
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Post by midwestsader05 on Aug 24, 2021 10:40:30 GMT -5
If past is prologue the 2021 “Season Outlook” should be available by the end of this week (maybe Saturday if they have their final pre-season scrimmage on Friday) This used to be a multi-page breakdown of the team highlighting every position group. However, since 2020 each team’s outlook has been a very abbreviated and generic “Five questions for (insert team)”
UCONN game preview will most likely be published next Monday or Tuesday.
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Post by dharry13 on Aug 24, 2021 10:50:50 GMT -5
I'd agree - game preview on Monday/Tuesday. Will be the first look at the two deep to see if there are any surprises. See how many if any Frosh might be able to crack to two deep. See how many Sophomores made good leaps and may have worked into starting roles.
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Post by midwestsader05 on Aug 24, 2021 11:36:40 GMT -5
As far as Sophomores on the 2-deep, I expect the following (anyone not listed would be a surprise barring unknown injuries to others or themselves) Almost guaranteed on Offense: QB Sluka (starter) and Siderman WR Corker and Shipman OT Newman (possible starter)
Probable on Offense: OG Eric Schon
Almost guaranteed on Defense: LB Bolden CB Spence
Probable on Defense: S Joe Rivers 2nd string DE - TBD 2nd string DT - TBD
It’s virtually impossible to prognosticate on any Frosh cracking the 2-deep heading into Week 1 without watching multiple practices and knowing the status of every injury.
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Post by dharry13 on Aug 24, 2021 11:56:29 GMT -5
I agree with the above. Only other kids I think might get a shot at cracking two deep as Sophs - maybe Lane as the 2nd TE? Maybe Scott as a CB?
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Post by midwestsader05 on Aug 24, 2021 12:37:26 GMT -5
Lane would have to beat out Senior’s Alex Sloan and Cullen Honohan. He’s got good height at 6’4 and could be a match-up problem if we plan on throwing to our TE’s more often but right now I think overall experience, strength and blocking win out to start the season. Scott would have to beat out Junior Kam Molton who was the 4th CB during the end of the spring season behind J Smith, Haskins and Spence.
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Post by dharry13 on Aug 24, 2021 13:15:46 GMT -5
Lane much bigger than Sloan and Honohan has little experience at TE. Scott much greater size than Molton. I guess time will tell.
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Fall Camp
Aug 24, 2021 13:20:41 GMT -5
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Post by deep Purple on Aug 24, 2021 13:20:41 GMT -5
Sloan - 6'3" 201lbs
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Post by midwestsader05 on Aug 24, 2021 13:53:25 GMT -5
No he’s not. As was discussed in the thread “Football Roster Insights and Comments”, 90% of players have not had their weight updated since spring/fall of 2019. I stood on the field with most of these guys after the SDSU game. You can also get a sense of their actual size in some of the recent videos and pics. I would peg Sloan around ~225-230 lbs and Holohan at ~235-240 lbs. Not saying Lane isn’t going to be the #2 TE heading into the UCONN game but do not make judgements based on current roster measurements.
There are literally dozens of examples. In the article on B Whitley, it states that he arrived his freshman year at 208 lbs and has put on “almost 60 pounds of pure muscle.” I’m not a mathematician but that tells me he’s currently somewhere between 260-265 lbs. The roster lists him at 251 lbs. Dobbs is ~235 lbs not 222, Dan Kuz is ~250 lbs not 236.
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Fall Camp
Aug 24, 2021 18:09:34 GMT -5
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Post by hc2020 on Aug 24, 2021 18:09:34 GMT -5
Lane much bigger than Sloan and Honohan has little experience at TE. Scott much greater size than Molton. I guess time will tell. Scott is long, with good height and an exceptional wingspan. His biggest issue is he is extremely thin. I also think that Matt Duchemin may be another soph. CB who could get some playing time as well. He was also an exceptional kick returner in high school, with if I recall correctly a great punt return for a TD in the state championship game in 2018. I’m surprised he hasn’t had more looks in the return game.
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Fall Camp
Aug 24, 2021 18:17:17 GMT -5
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Post by hc2020 on Aug 24, 2021 18:17:17 GMT -5
As far as Sophomores on the 2-deep, I expect the following (anyone not listed would be a surprise barring unknown injuries to others or themselves) Almost guaranteed on Offense: QB Sluka (starter) and Siderman WR Corker and Shipman OT Newman (possible starter) Probable on Offense: OG Eric Schon Almost guaranteed on Defense: LB Bolden CB Spence Probable on Defense: S Joe Rivers 2nd string DE - TBD 2nd string DT - TBD It’s virtually impossible to prognosticate on any Frosh cracking the 2-deep heading into Week 1 without watching multiple practices and knowing the status of every injury. Good analysis. I can see Schon and Newman anchoring the right side of the OL for a couple of years to come. Both are big and move well. I think it will be difficult for a sophomore to crack the 2-deep at DE. I know Dyer has good size as does Vaganek. Springer and Allard are also in the mix.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Aug 24, 2021 18:38:19 GMT -5
HC is trending up as the rest of the league is trending considerably downhill--not quite the Pioneer, but at least one rating had them alongside the PFL.
The six other schools might not see 10 non-conference wins between them.
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Fall Camp
Aug 24, 2021 19:52:13 GMT -5
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Aug 24, 2021 19:52:13 GMT -5
Fordham is pretty good.
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Fall Camp
Aug 24, 2021 20:31:20 GMT -5
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Post by efg72 on Aug 24, 2021 20:31:20 GMT -5
Surprise team in two years might be Gtown?
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Post by timholycross on Aug 24, 2021 20:42:05 GMT -5
A look at the fine non-league institutions Patriot League teams will face this year. I'll let others discuss DFW's prediction.
Lafayette: AFA, W&M, Penn, UNH, Harvard Lehigh: Villanova, Richmond, Princeton, Penn, Yale Hoyas: Marist, Delaware State, Columbia, Harvard, Morgan State Colgate: BC, Stony Brook, W&M, Brown, Cornell Bucknell: Sacred Heart, Villanova, Penn, Cornell, Army Fordham: Nebraska, Monmouth, Stony Brook, Florida Atlantic, Wagner
HC: UConn, Monmouth, Harvard, Yale, Merrimack
6 BCS teams; 8 CAA; 2 Big South; 1 Pioneer; 3 NEC; 2 MEAC; 13 Ivy
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 24, 2021 20:58:10 GMT -5
If you credit the IL and CAA as being ahead of the PL, there are very few cupcakes on these schedules. Georgetown has a less challenging schedule but a couple of their opponents are nearby like Merrimack is for HC.
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Post by bfoley82 on Aug 24, 2021 22:39:21 GMT -5
If you credit the IL and CAA as being ahead of the PL, there are very few cupcakes on these schedules. Georgetown has a less challenging schedule but a couple of their opponents are nearby like Merrimack is for HC. Merrimack is better than Delaware State.
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 25, 2021 0:26:10 GMT -5
That's a relief.
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