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Post by midwestsader05 on Feb 15, 2022 9:37:46 GMT -5
I posted this in another thread and since we are discussing again… I really think this will be the formula starting in 2023 (with occasional exceptions) Our buddy asked why Monmouth over Princeton for a NJ game? For those of us that actually know HC football, we know that HC hasn’t played Princeton since…? Not in this century for sure. We have started to play Monmouth in the modern era and with their move to the CAA, will recruit against them more often and many of our Jersey guys will have played HS football with and against their players. I personally would really enjoy seeing a rare HC v Princeton game but if we only have room for 2 Ivies going forward, they should 100% be Harvard and Yale (with Dartmouth as the primary back-up)
“5 Total OOC games per season:
1 competitive FBS game - for all the reasons known and stated
1-2 Ivies - preferably only Harvard and/or Yale. We have tons of history with these New England rivals. We increasingly compete head to head for the top third of our respective recruiting classes. Our players enjoy competing with and beating these programs. Dartmouth or Brown should be the ONLY other Ivies even considered as a back-up option to H/Y do to their New England proximity. I don't see the benefit of scheduling a home and home with Penn, Princeton, Cornell or Columbia.
2-3 CAA's - the 4 Northern programs that make most sense are Nova, UNH, URI, and Monmouth (do to our Jersey pipeline). Maine, Albany and Stony Brook don't really provide any reciprocal value. As for the Southern CAA Programs, less likely but if we were to get a home and home with 1 or 2 over the next 4-5 years, Richmond and W&M clearly make the most sense. I think Delaware would also be intriguing. We should never even sniff Towson, Elon or Hampton.
NEC - while I would not be surprised if a NEC team has to be considered every now and then, I don't think we should pro-actively seek any out. One central reason, I believe the winner of the PL and NEC are increasingly likely to become the de-facto first round playoff game in most seasons. There is no way either league champ is getting a first round bye without going at least 10-1 in the regular season (with your only loss to an FBS school.) It might even take an 11-0 undefeated season to guarantee that first round bye and a Top 8 seed for the foreseeable future.
2018 Colgate is the most relevant recent example. They went 10-1 and crushed every FCS opponent that year except the first two of the season (7 point victories against HC in Chesney's first game and UNH.) They finished the year by giving a 9-2 Army team all they could handle in a 28-14 loss and squeaked in a first round bye with the #8 overall seed.”
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 15, 2022 10:17:18 GMT -5
The CAA will have 13 football playing members. Assuming two divisions, that means each team will play five divisional opponents, and likely at least three non-divisional opponents. Most OOC games are scheduled early in the season, i.e., September, because with FCS playoffs, games aren't scheduled into late November.
Eight conference opponents leaves three open dates for CAA schools most years, not counting a bye week. CAA schools also like to pursue big pay-days, e.g., Villanova playing Penn State last fall. Typically, FBS games are no later than mid-September.
Holy Cross can readily schedule one CAA opponent every year, might be fortunate to get two, and won't get three.
Holy Cross has six conference opponents, and five open dates. Assuming one FBS opponent every year, and 1-2 CAA opponents, that leaves 2-3 OOC open dates. One could readily fill these open dates with Merrimack, Sacred Heart, Bryant, Wagner, Marist, etc. year after year, but what help are those schools if HC wants a national ranking? Or Holy Cross could schedule several Ivies. In the final FCS rankings for 2021, Dartmouth was ranked #20, Princeton was #24, and Harvard received votes. (Two CAA schools (one of which is leaving the CAA) were ranked in the top 25, and one received votes.)
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 15, 2022 10:45:01 GMT -5
Most of the scheduling projections/wish lists have MA. Catholic FCS neighbors HC and Merrimack passing like two ships in the night after the initial series expires.
Merrimack doesn't give us the prestige or history of other schools but because they have started so well in their new higher division (compared to say HC women's hockey in their new division) there's a chance they will become very good. I guess that would give us the possibility of a local playoff game.
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Post by midwestsader05 on Feb 15, 2022 10:59:22 GMT -5
The "Base case" most likely starting in 2023 is 1-2-2. 1 FBS, 2 Ivies & 2 CAA's. NEC will sneak in every couple seasons as could a second FBS team (especially if we play Army or Navy) as they don't write checks like our other FBS would be opponents.
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Post by thecrossisback on Feb 15, 2022 12:26:59 GMT -5
I honestly don care to play the Ivy's anymore. They don't play in the FCS playoffs and they never play good out of confrence opponents. Their fan bases stink and we have done it for 100 years people are tired of going to the Yale Bowl.
1 a year is plenty.
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Post by hc87 on Feb 15, 2022 12:45:13 GMT -5
Here's where we stand OOC-wise for the rest of the decade as of today: fbschedules.com/ncaa/holy-cross/For FCS OOC games, the only constant is Yale ironically. Home and homes against URI in '24 and '25 and CCSU in '27 and '28. I believe the CCSU games would have been played this year and last but were moved when Merrimack joined the NEC. I doubt we will play more than 1 CAA game most years. As others have noted here, their schedules are pretty jammed up being in such a large conference. I think we'll see mostly local CAA games moving forward: UNH and Albany joining the already scheduled URI. Not a big fan of these games but many of the local NEC schools (Merrimack, Bryant, SHU etc) provide a nearby game as well as a "break" (on paper anyway, see: Merrimack 2021) in the schedule from playing solid FBS, Ivy, CAA teams week to week. My guess is that "base OOC schedule" will mostly be: 1 FBS (maybe 2 in 12 game seasons which are '24 and '25), 2 Ivies, 1 CAA and 1 NEC.
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Post by lou on Feb 15, 2022 12:46:14 GMT -5
The better IL teams are highly ranked, and they are competitive games (agree about Yale Bowl though). Game at Columbia would be fun too, and Cornell
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Post by hc87 on Feb 15, 2022 12:56:14 GMT -5
Some here might not want to hear this, but we would probably drop football or at least give it much less emphasis if we stopped playing Ivy League teams completely in football.
A very big reason why we have an FCS-level program at Holy Cross is to schedule the Harvards and Yales of the world.
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Post by gks on Feb 15, 2022 12:59:27 GMT -5
Some here might not want to hear this, but we would probably drop football or at least give it much less emphasis if we stopped playing Ivy League teams completely in football. A very big reason why we have an FCS-level program at Holy Cross is to schedule the Harvards and Yales of the world. You think Chesney agrees with this odd statement? Maybe 40 years ago this was the case. Holy Cross Football is moving on.
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Post by hc87 on Feb 15, 2022 13:04:21 GMT -5
Some here might not want to hear this, but we would probably drop football or at least give it much less emphasis if we stopped playing Ivy League teams completely in football. A very big reason why we have an FCS-level program at Holy Cross is to schedule the Harvards and Yales of the world. You think Chesney agrees with this odd statement? Maybe 40 years ago this was the case. Holy Cross Football is moving on. If you think we have a football program solely to defeat the Monmouths, UConns and URIs of the world and not to be at the "same table" as Harvard, Yale and Dartmouth you're sorely mistaken imo. Both can (and are) being done but to discount our association with the Ivies is being pretty myopic.
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Post by gks on Feb 15, 2022 13:06:21 GMT -5
You think Chesney agrees with this odd statement? Maybe 40 years ago this was the case. Holy Cross Football is moving on. If you think we have a football program solely to defeat the Monmouths, UConns and URIs of the world and not to be at the "same table" as Harvard, Yale and Dartmouth you're sorely mistaken imo. Both can (and are) being done but to discount our association with the Ivies is being pretty myopic. This is Father Brooks thinking. They're now playing football to win a national championship.
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Post by hc87 on Feb 15, 2022 13:11:12 GMT -5
If you think we have a football program solely to defeat the Monmouths, UConns and URIs of the world and not to be at the "same table" as Harvard, Yale and Dartmouth you're sorely mistaken imo. Both can (and are) being done but to discount our association with the Ivies is being pretty myopic. This is Father Brooks thinking. They're now playing football to win a national championship. Believe me, I am far from being in the "we are not in the entertainment biz" camp. Harvard, Yale and Dartmouth, while also being world-renowned institutions, have been amongst the best FCS programs in the Northeast if not the country. Playing them in football is very much a "win-win" these days for Holy Cross.
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Post by thecrossisback on Feb 15, 2022 13:33:59 GMT -5
If you think we have a football program solely to defeat the Monmouths, UConns and URIs of the world and not to be at the "same table" as Harvard, Yale and Dartmouth you're sorely mistaken imo. Both can (and are) being done but to discount our association with the Ivies is being pretty myopic. This is Father Brooks thinking. They're now playing football to win a national championship. 100 percent nobody cares about the IVY football nationally or really the FCS at all. So this Ivy thing is not that important. If the IVY's are so good its time to test themselves nationally.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 15, 2022 13:43:00 GMT -5
The CAA is not a good fit for obvious reasons. .No doubt HC will continue to play its PL, IL schedule with other OOC foes added. What happened to HC's future games with Harvard. Thought the school had a long term deal alternating between Harvard & Yale. Would love to see our long time opponent, Dartmouth permanently added to the schedule. Add in a third IL foe such as Brown. Two openings on the schedule would remain. Army and ? Now that is a schedule to be proud of. Oh I get it. Nobody care about the IL but they are salivating over the CAA. Bet more people cnationally ould name more IL schools than CAA schools. Obviously student-athletes will flock to HC to jump at the opportunity to play Delaware, etc. REALLY?
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 15, 2022 14:42:50 GMT -5
Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. The President of the College of the Holy Cross is a graduate of Brown University and Harvard University. The current provost and dean of the College of the Holy Cross (the second highest position in the college) is a graduate of Brown University. The chair of the Board of Trustees of the College of the Holy Cross is a graduate of Columbia University. Holy Cross alumni can become associate members of the Harvard Club of Boston and the Princeton Club in New York. www.holycross.edu/alumni/alumni/benefits-services/affiliate-clubsSo Holy Cross is now too good for the Ivies? Perhaps I should write to Ms. Dyer and tell her that Holy Cross should sever its relationship with these two university clubs, because the Ivy League is beneath the College.
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Post by bfoley82 on Feb 15, 2022 14:44:30 GMT -5
We’ve played plenty of Ivies over the last 30 years and our academic reputation has gotten worse rather than better. No college applicant looks at our list of football opponents and says, “Wow, I’ve never heard of that place but they play Harvard in football so I’m going to apply.” We need to do things that cause people to know that HC exists outside of the northeast. I’m not sure that being top 25 in FCS every year will do a lot in that regard but it can’t hurt to try it and see what happens. Being top 25 in hoops every year would be really impactful but don’t think we can get from here to there. I counted 26 players on the Columbia roster from Florida or Texas. They also have 12 from California. This goes into the name recognition of the Ivy League and Columbia is far from an annual contender in the Ivy League.
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Post by gks on Feb 15, 2022 14:47:02 GMT -5
Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. The President of the College of the Holy Cross is a graduate of Brown University and Harvard University. The current provost and dean of the College of the Holy Cross (the second highest position in the college) is a graduate of Brown University. The chair of the Board of Trustees of the College of the Holy Cross is a graduate of Columbia University. Holy Cross alumni can become associate members of the Harvard Club of Boston and the Princeton Club in New York. www.holycross.edu/alumni/alumni/benefits-services/affiliate-clubsSo Holy Cross is now too good for the Ivies? Perhaps I should write to Ms. Dyer and tell her that Holy Cross should sever its relationship with these two university clubs, because the Ivy League is beneath the College. This is an athletic board. If you want to debate the administration offices of Holy Cross and the Ivies you can go to the message board that discusses who has the best Provost in the Northeast.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 15, 2022 15:22:04 GMT -5
gks, I believe you stated that you are not an alum but a long time fan of Holy Cross athletics. If that is an accurate recollection, I want to salute you as I do Non Alum Dave, who we all treasure even if he didn't write our annual Christmas poem.
But, if indeed you are a fan of HC athletics and are not an alum, please understand that we might look at things from a slightly different perspective.
While it is evident and obvious that even all Crusader alums don't think alike - which I at least partially attribute to the education that we got on the hill - some think Fr. Brooks was dead wrong; some think he was 100% right; but I think that most believe that there is a middle ground for HC athletics.
While we may not be in the infamous "entertainment business," that also doesn't mean there is only a small space for varsity sports. But, as I posted previously, athletics at Holy Cross is not a stand-alone facet of the College as it is in many other places.
The fact that Holy Cross joined and still is in the Patriot League is not an accident because of the primacy of academics. Yes, like the Ivy League. While you could easily find individual schools who also place a high value on academics, most other conferences simply don't generally place as high a value on it as they do the athletics. That's why Holy Cross touts the sky-high graduation rates.
If you think TPTB at Holy Cross would stand for dropping IL teams wholesale to add CAA opponents, you are just wrong. I haven't talk to Bob Chesney but maybe you have. I guarantee you that if he said "I'm dropping Harvard, Yale and Dartmouth from the schedule because I want to add (fill in the CAA team blank)," that answer would be a flat "no." If he said he wanted to add a CAA team or two instead of some other schools like Central Conn, Bryant, Sacred Heart, etc., I'm sure he'd get two thumbs up.
Just my opinion which is based on my conversations with administrators, ADs and head coaches over the last 20 years. You might have better sources.
I would hate for us to lose you as a fan because you're right that the College has lost too many local, non-alum fans over the years. But certain things just aren't going to happen.
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Post by newfieguy74 on Feb 15, 2022 15:24:18 GMT -5
Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. The President of the College of the Holy Cross is a graduate of Brown University and Harvard University. The current provost and dean of the College of the Holy Cross (the second highest position in the college) is a graduate of Brown University. The chair of the Board of Trustees of the College of the Holy Cross is a graduate of Columbia University. Holy Cross alumni can become associate members of the Harvard Club of Boston and the Princeton Club in New York. www.holycross.edu/alumni/alumni/benefits-services/affiliate-clubsSo Holy Cross is now too good for the Ivies? Perhaps I should write to Ms. Dyer and tell her that Holy Cross should sever its relationship with these two university clubs, because the Ivy League is beneath the College. This is an athletic board. If you want to debate the administration offices of Holy Cross and the Ivies you can go to the message board that discusses who has the best Provost in the Northeast. This is unnecessary snark. I think it's great we play the Ivies. Similar level of football (sometimes better), elite academic institutions, geographic proximity. I have many friends who went to IL schools (I had dinner this weekend with one who went to Dartmouth) and everyone of them has tremendous respect for HC.
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Post by HC92 on Feb 15, 2022 15:53:07 GMT -5
Sounds like most of us would generally be on board with midwestsader’s plan of 1 FBS, 2 Ivy and 2 CAA every year. Ivies are good as part of a balanced schedule which also includes some top FCS programs and one FBS team we have at least some chance of beating.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 15, 2022 16:10:01 GMT -5
Thread on voy with a lot of chaff about IL transfers (post-baccalaureate). One poster wrote something I did not know: "Harvard alone has 3 former tight ends playing for 3 of the final 8 NFL playoff teams. Former Yale LB led the NFL in tackles."
---------- There is also a voy thread about Kupp's dream school being Yale, and Yale supposedly had some interest. But Kupp, from a small town in Washington, seemed to have gotten caught in a situation where Yale was transitioning between head coaches, with Tony Reno arriving in early January. (The head coaching position that Tom Gilmore was supposedly one of the top candidates.)
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Post by hc87 on Feb 15, 2022 16:14:49 GMT -5
I'm on board with that template....though as I posted earlier, I think you'll some NEC schools dotting the future schedules moving forward.
I'd like to see a little "variety" in our FCS games every so often (3-4 years or so) too. A Southern Conference game against Furman or The Citadel would be a fun game for a variety of reasons etc...a trip to the Fargo Dome or Montana would be a great experience for players and fans alike as well.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 15, 2022 18:06:08 GMT -5
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Post by efg72 on Feb 15, 2022 18:26:15 GMT -5
I am for a five year plan that puts us in a conference tbd
Just kidding
Let Kit figure it out with Vince and the bot, but my bet in 2027 our athletic world will look similar, but in some ways very different. I think there is a bigger plan not yet on the table
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 15, 2022 18:37:12 GMT -5
In a little less than a half hour, there will be a Zoom entitled: "College Update for President's Council and Annual Giving Volunteers"
Let's see if they discuss Kit and athletics.
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