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Post by sader1970 on Feb 16, 2022 8:25:34 GMT -5
You do realize that your argument (like mine) is subjective, right? It's your opinion. That's fine. But it's your opinion, not a fact. Whose eyes, exactly, got opened by a loss to Villanova but not Yale win?
If you are talking the FCS selection committee, the Villanova game was already decided by the committee being that it was a playoff game. You might have a better argument with the win over Monmouth.
Whatever. You are entrenched in your thinking and I'm sure you feel the same about my opinion.
As some posters say: "Peace."
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 16, 2022 8:27:18 GMT -5
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Post by HC92 on Feb 16, 2022 8:29:22 GMT -5
We’re not going to play all top FCS teams or all Ivies. This is not an either/or decision. We’re likely going to continue to play two Ivies (preferably Harvard and Yale) and an FBS team. The only question is what we’re going to do with the remaining OOC spots. I think we’d all like to see those upgraded to teams that appear consistently in the FCS top 25. If anyone disagrees with that, by all means speak. Seems like we’re going around and around in circles and no one is really saying anything different.
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Post by purplehaze on Feb 16, 2022 8:32:46 GMT -5
Quite an active thread - my thoughts We still have a long way to go to be nationally relevant We got smacked by Harvard and barely beat SHU Harvard, Princeton and Yale regularly out-recruit us My ideal schedule: 6 PL, 1 FBS, 2 Ivy, 2 CAA (drop NEC)
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 16, 2022 8:37:25 GMT -5
In terms of name recognition we may need to take another look at the logo of shield and HC. I was in North Carolina for the last week and had many compliment me on my black shirt with that logo. However, they asked where they could also get a similar shirt with the CH for "Chapel Hill". That never happened once with the Gothic or Old English lettering and the staggered HC. Oh well. I agree. The shield was required to replace the politically incorrect Crusader on steed with lance. It accomplished that, but it doesn't spell out Holy Cross and not being a household name, that would help identify Holy Cross much more effectively than the current CH.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 16, 2022 9:06:13 GMT -5
In terms of name recognition we may need to take another look at the logo of shield and HC. I was in North Carolina for the last week and had many compliment me on my black shirt with that logo. However, they asked where they could also get a similar shirt with the CH for "Chapel Hill". That never happened once with the Gothic or Old English lettering and the staggered HC. Oh well. Got it.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 16, 2022 9:07:04 GMT -5
You do realize that your argument (like mine) is subjective, right? It's your opinion. That's fine. But it's your opinion, not a fact. Whose eyes, exactly, got opened by a loss to Villanova but not Yale win? If you are talking the FCS selection committee, the Villanova game was already decided by the committee being that it was a playoff game. You might have a better argument with the win over Monmouth. Whatever. You are entrenched in your thinking and I'm sure you feel the same about my opinion. As some posters say: "Peace." Peace.
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Post by mm67 on Feb 16, 2022 9:19:18 GMT -5
SBU vs HC is a much more attractive game than Penn or Brown or Columbia(never happen) or Dartmouth vs HC. Can see the huge headlines in the media, electronic/print "HC Defeats SBU" in the "Game of the Century." No? Guess the CAA isn't the SEC either. Gotta' get off this carousel to nowhere. But, it is too much fun to ignore, sort of an addiction. Peace & fellowship to all.
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Post by Ignutz on Feb 16, 2022 9:42:38 GMT -5
Might be hard for some to hear but pretty sure the football team (and hopefully basketball eventually) are not just for the players and fans but a vehicle to get the Holy Cross brand more widely known. Yes, that means doing well and that dovetails with what the alums and fans want but there will be a conscious effort to get more applicants (and recruits no doubt) from the south, southwest and west where population is growing. Like it or not, Ivy League schools are MUCH better known than any CAA school. Not to say we can’t or won’t play any CAA schools but they will supplement, not replace, IL schools on the schedule. And would be surprised if we don’t schedule games outside the Northeast. Was there a time in any of our lives when Holy Cross was more recognized across the country than during the mid-70s when the hoop team was playing (and beating) the likes of Georgetown, Michigan State, highly-ranked Providence, and #6 Cincinnati, and giving Kansas State, Notre Dame and top-ranked Michigan a run for their money? RW brought back some of that with his NCAA tourney scares against Marquette, Kentucky and Kansas, but those scares weren't wins, and thus didn't carry the same weight.. Despite the tremendous success of the Duffner teams, I'm sure that few people west of NYC were learning of the HC "brand" from our football success - especially since we didn't participate in the post-season. Ask your average sports fan about the final four FCS tournament teams (or even the National Champions) over the past few years, and you're likely to get little more than a few "I dunno"s and some lucky guesses, but ask those same fans about Cinderella stories and little-schools-that-could in the NCAA hoop tournament over the past ten years, and the recollections will be much stronger and detailed. As much as we are reveling in the growth and prospects for our gridders, are very grateful to have Coach Chesney leading us to much better days ahead, and are optimistic about our chances of making serious noise in the FCS post-season, a resurgence of the basketball team, with the opportunity to play a dozen or more games OOC (and across the country) each year, is our best way of making the Holy Cross name more widely known.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 16, 2022 10:20:51 GMT -5
Hear! Hear! Well said.
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Post by Pakachoag Phreek on Feb 16, 2022 10:37:27 GMT -5
Might be hard for some to hear but pretty sure the football team (and hopefully basketball eventually) are not just for the players and fans but a vehicle to get the Holy Cross brand more widely known. Yes, that means doing well and that dovetails with what the alums and fans want but there will be a conscious effort to get more applicants (and recruits no doubt) from the south, southwest and west where population is growing. Like it or not, Ivy League schools are MUCH better known than any CAA school. Not to say we can’t or won’t play any CAA schools but they will supplement, not replace, IL schools on the schedule. And would be surprised if we don’t schedule games outside the Northeast. Was there a time in any of our lives when Holy Cross was more recognized across the country than during the mid-70s when the hoop team was playing (and beating) the likes of Georgetown, Michigan State, highly-ranked Providence, and #6 Cincinnati, and giving Kansas State, Notre Dame and top-ranked Michigan a run for their money? RW brought back some of that with his NCAA tourney scares against Marquette, Kentucky and Kansas, but those scares weren't wins, and thus didn't carry the same weight.. Despite the tremendous success of the Duffner teams, I'm sure that few people west of NYC were learning of the HC "brand" from our football success - especially since we didn't participate in the post-season. Ask your average sports fan about the final four FCS tournament teams (or even the National Champions) over the past few years, and you're likely to get little more than a few "I dunnos" and some lucky guesses, but ask that same fans about Cinderella stories and little-schools-that-could in the NCAA hoop tournament over the past ten years, and the recollections will be much stronger and detailed. As much as we are reveling in the growth and prospects for our gridders, are very grateful to have Coach Chesney leading us to much better days ahead, and are optimistic about our chances of making serious noise in the FCS post-season, a resurgence of the basketball team, with the opportunity to play a dozen or more games OOC (and across the country) each year, is our best way of making the Holy Cross name more widely known. In the 60s, supposedly the Holy Cross-Syracuse score was announced during a World Series game and there as a collective gasp. Holy Cross was nationally prominent during that decade because its games were often on the weekly football card. You can bet your sweet bippy that bettors knew how HC was faring on the football field. With respect to hoops, HC gets national recognition today if it makes The Dance. A reason that HC will continue to play the Ivies is that Vince Rougeau declared it was HC's goal to regain a position in USN&WR's Top 25 national liberal arts colleges. And many/most of the schools in the Top 25 associate/align themselves with the Ivies.. Birds of a feather flock together.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 16, 2022 10:48:01 GMT -5
And I’ve posted in the past while working and living in Ohio, one of my bosses and one of my peers were Yale grads. Both knew and respected Holy Cross.
The peer was more egalitarian but the boss one day sniffed to me: “We went to great schools in New England (he was an Arkansas native) and I just don’t get this Buckeye thing.”
I had Ohioans say to me: “Holy Cross? That’s in the Ivy League, right?”
They thought that because they’d see the weekend football scores on TV. They didn’t need to check USN&WR rankings because they already knew that THE Ohio State University was the best in the country.😂
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Post by longsuffering on Feb 16, 2022 12:56:47 GMT -5
Might be hard for some to hear but pretty sure the football team (and hopefully basketball eventually) are not just for the players and fans but a vehicle to get the Holy Cross brand more widely known. Yes, that means doing well and that dovetails with what the alums and fans want but there will be a conscious effort to get more applicants (and recruits no doubt) from the south, southwest and west where population is growing. Like it or not, Ivy League schools are MUCH better known than any CAA school. Not to say we can’t or won’t play any CAA schools but they will supplement, not replace, IL schools on the schedule. And would be surprised if we don’t schedule games outside the Northeast. Was there a time in any of our lives when Holy Cross was more recognized across the country than during the mid-70s when the hoop team was playing (and beating) the likes of Georgetown, Michigan State, highly-ranked Providence, and #6 Cincinnati, and giving Kansas State, Notre Dame and top-ranked Michigan a run for their money? RW brought back some of that with his NCAA tourney scares against Marquette, Kentucky and Kansas, but those scares weren't wins, and thus didn't carry the same weight.. Despite the tremendous success of the Duffner teams, I'm sure that few people west of NYC were learning of the HC "brand" from our football success - especially since we didn't participate in the post-season. Ask your average sports fan about the final four FCS tournament teams (or even the National Champions) over the past few years, and you're likely to get little more than a few "I dunno"s and some lucky guesses, but ask those same fans about Cinderella stories and little-schools-that-could in the NCAA hoop tournament over the past ten years, and the recollections will be much stronger and detailed. As much as we are reveling in the growth and prospects for our gridders, are very grateful to have Coach Chesney leading us to much better days ahead, and are optimistic about our chances of making serious noise in the FCS post-season, a resurgence of the basketball team, with the opportunity to play a dozen or more games OOC (and across the country) each year, is our best way of making the Holy Cross name more widely known. Duffner with his 60-5-1 record raised HC's profile from a pure football track and SID Greg Burke matched him with his two year publicity campaign for "Throwback" Gordie Lockbaum on a more human interest track. Of note is Gordie had a national (combined FBS and FCS) award of high public recognition, the Heisman Trophy to compete for. If Sluka continues his exciting play there is still much for an energetic SID like Sir Charles to work with, but Sluka won't be a candidate for the Heisman. So while FCS offers limited national recognition, excellence is excellence and well worth working towards when you have a once in a generation coach leading the way.
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Post by timholycross on Feb 16, 2022 13:30:50 GMT -5
Brown has never been good even with Joe Pa. They won their first Ivy League title in 1976 with the other three in 1999, 2005 and 2008. They did play in the Rose Bowl in 1915. Brown was very solid under John Anderson in the mid/late 1970s....one of the bettah Ivy football programs during that time. As you posted, they were also solid undah Phil Estes in the late '90s/'00s. They are a good, local opponent....hope we continue to play them every so often moving forward. I'm down on Brown due to their lack of support for the program- small crowds in Providence and basically "family only" supporters at Fitton. Kind of feel the same way about Dartmouth, at least in terms of them coming to Worcester. Would go up there any time. And, of course, they are an Ivy power again.
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Post by hc87 on Feb 16, 2022 13:54:37 GMT -5
Might be hard for some to hear but pretty sure the football team (and hopefully basketball eventually) are not just for the players and fans but a vehicle to get the Holy Cross brand more widely known. Yes, that means doing well and that dovetails with what the alums and fans want but there will be a conscious effort to get more applicants (and recruits no doubt) from the south, southwest and west where population is growing. Like it or not, Ivy League schools are MUCH better known than any CAA school. Not to say we can’t or won’t play any CAA schools but they will supplement, not replace, IL schools on the schedule. And would be surprised if we don’t schedule games outside the Northeast. Was there a time in any of our lives when Holy Cross was more recognized across the country than during the mid-70s when the hoop team was playing (and beating) the likes of Georgetown, Michigan State, highly-ranked Providence, and #6 Cincinnati, and giving Kansas State, Notre Dame and top-ranked Michigan a run for their money? RW brought back some of that with his NCAA tourney scares against Marquette, Kentucky and Kansas, but those scares weren't wins, and thus didn't carry the same weight.. Despite the tremendous success of the Duffner teams, I'm sure that few people west of NYC were learning of the HC "brand" from our football success - especially since we didn't participate in the post-season. Ask your average sports fan about the final four FCS tournament teams (or even the National Champions) over the past few years, and you're likely to get little more than a few "I dunno"s and some lucky guesses, but ask those same fans about Cinderella stories and little-schools-that-could in the NCAA hoop tournament over the past ten years, and the recollections will be much stronger and detailed. As much as we are reveling in the growth and prospects for our gridders, are very grateful to have Coach Chesney leading us to much better days ahead, and are optimistic about our chances of making serious noise in the FCS post-season, a resurgence of the basketball team, with the opportunity to play a dozen or more games OOC (and across the country) each year, is our best way of making the Holy Cross name more widely known. Very hard to argue with this and why I've oft bemoaned "we coulda been in the Big East ya know" for years (decades now?) here. I really enjoy the FCS-level of football. It's very good football (mostly), played much more with athletes that are truly representative of their school's enrollment than at the FBS-level. But let's face it, to the average person/fan, the FCS-level is seen as the "island of misfit toys" by most. A collection of "directional" state schools, flagship state schools from underpopulated states, smaller private schools. the Ivies and the HBCUs. I'm not demeaning any of these fine institutions, just saying that to the "average fan," they view this level as "Division 2." All that being said, I think it's a great level for Holy Cross. We are far too small a school to compete at the FBS-level as it exists today. But it does allow us to compete (and sometimes defeat an FBS school), play schools similar to ourselves in terms of that school's academic/athletic mission/philosophy and play at that level's highest level nationally. The drawback being, for most around the country, most have no idea who is playing for or who has won the FCS Championship in any given year. A longish, winding reason why Holy Cross playing Harvard and Yale in Septembah or Octobah is just as important as playing North Dakota St in January.
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Post by football44 on Feb 16, 2022 14:20:30 GMT -5
And I’ve posted in the past while working and living in Ohio, one of my bosses and one of my peers were Yale grads. Both knew and respected Holy Cross. The peer was more egalitarian but the boss one day sniffed to me: “We went to great schools in New England (he was an Arkansas native) and I just don’t get this Buckeye thing.” I had Ohioans say to me: “Holy Cross? That’s in the Ivy League, right?” They thought that because they’d see the weekend football scores on TV. They didn’t need to check USN&WR rankings because they already knew that THE Ohio State University was the best in the country.😂 Unfortunately living out here in Chicago when I mention Holy Cross some think it's the high school.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Feb 16, 2022 14:30:21 GMT -5
Regarding recognition from football....
Eight years ago, I was attending my granddaughter’s birthday party in a town outside of Portland Oregon. While talking to a parent, who was about 33 years old and originally from Minnesota, I mentioned I went to Holy Cross. The next words out of him was.....Gordie Lockbaum with a huge smile.
With a successful football team, staff up the SID with competent people who can properly work the array of media channels, and the recognition has and will be known west of the Mississippi.
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Post by HC92 on Feb 16, 2022 17:00:55 GMT -5
A significant majority of people who comment on my HC gear make some reference to Lockbaum, Cousy or RW teams in the NCAA tourney. Not a lot of talk of our academic offerings. Next most common comment is about the high school in Waterbury.
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Post by bigfan on Feb 16, 2022 17:29:32 GMT -5
Football is fine, we need to upgrade the basketball program. A top basketball team will bring national attention to the school. Nobody ever heard of Gonzaga until they started to have top basketball teams.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Feb 16, 2022 18:00:07 GMT -5
Football is fine, we need to upgrade the basketball program. A top basketball team will bring national attention to the school. Nobody ever heard of Gonzaga until they started to have top basketball teams. Gonzaga admissions staff has created a very nice presentation regarding their school. HC Vice Provost Cornell LeSand and his staff have the opportunity to fill the gap regarding creative presentations that have been a deficit for the last 25 years. Please see the link: www.gonzaga.edu/about/at-a-glance/facts-and-figuresGonzaga has a beautiful campus in a very scenic location. While Gonzaga has achieved recognition through their men’s basketball program, it is a one trick pony for their athletic program for recognition. Athletics consists of 16 varsity sports. No football, ice hockey, or lacrosse. Helmet sports are missing. Gonzaga has 5,300 undergraduates with a reported endowment of 308 million in 2020, Once the pandemic is over and travel resumes to a nominal level, it is on my list of campuses to visit while in Washington state visiting family.
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Post by gks on Feb 16, 2022 18:53:13 GMT -5
Football is fine, we need to upgrade the basketball program. A top basketball team will bring national attention to the school. Nobody ever heard of Gonzaga until they started to have top basketball teams. If I can't convince the members of this board to stop playing Ivies good luck convincing people to turn the hoops program into Gonzaga...
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Post by mm67 on Feb 16, 2022 20:01:16 GMT -5
Actually, turning the HC hoops program into Harvard's would be pretty good, too.
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Post by Ignutz on Feb 17, 2022 9:08:22 GMT -5
Regarding recognition from football.... Eight years ago, I was attending my granddaughter’s birthday party in a town outside of Portland Oregon. While talking to a parent, who was about 33 years old and originally from Minnesota, I mentioned I went to Holy Cross. The next words out of him was.....Gordie Lockbaum with a huge smile. With a successful football team, staff up the SID with competent people who can properly work the array of media channels, and the recognition has and will be known west of the Mississippi. As I read your post, I was hoping that the Gopher would have bemoaned our hockey victory over UM at the Ralph in 2005. Maybe too soon.......................still.
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Post by newfieguy74 on Feb 17, 2022 9:16:43 GMT -5
"Gonzaga has a beautiful campus in a very scenic location. While Gonzaga has achieved recognition through their men’s basketball program, it is a one trick pony for their athletic program for recognition. Athletics consists of 16 varsity sports. No football, ice hockey, or lacrosse. Helmet sports are missing. Gonzaga has 5,300 undergraduates with a reported endowment of 308 million in 2020,
Once the pandemic is over and travel resumes to a nominal level, it is on my list of campuses to visit while in Washington state visiting family."
I've never been to Gonzaga, but I'm told by someone that has been there many times that it is in the middle of nowhere.
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Post by bfoley82 on Feb 17, 2022 11:02:32 GMT -5
"Gonzaga has a beautiful campus in a very scenic location. While Gonzaga has achieved recognition through their men’s basketball program, it is a one trick pony for their athletic program for recognition. Athletics consists of 16 varsity sports. No football, ice hockey, or lacrosse. Helmet sports are missing. Gonzaga has 5,300 undergraduates with a reported endowment of 308 million in 2020, Once the pandemic is over and travel resumes to a nominal level, it is on my list of campuses to visit while in Washington state visiting family." I've never been to Gonzaga, but I'm told by someone that has been there many times that it is in the middle of nowhere. Spokane has 228k residents and the 97th largest city which is bigger than Worcester.
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