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Post by mm67 on Aug 4, 2022 15:51:22 GMT -5
The argument about AI not improving our academic standing is inverse reasoning and is without merit. Try to understand.
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Post by trimster on Aug 4, 2022 16:35:07 GMT -5
I wouldn't spend a nanosecond on that issue. The rest of the PL would certainly give it some thought. As well they should but I don't feel like HC owes the rest of the PL anything. HC gave up a lot athletically to join the PL. I know some argue it was the best of the few options HC had at a crossroads in the early Eighties but I never warmed up to the PL. My guess is there are many others who feel the same. I know you don't and I respect that sentiment.
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Post by efg72 on Aug 4, 2022 16:45:02 GMT -5
According to my neighbor, the addition of Campbell came at the request of W&M to fill out the far southern part of the conference, and be part of their schedule.-- true? not sure but what I was told
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Post by hcpride on Aug 4, 2022 16:48:09 GMT -5
Perhaps the extended prep school environment of an undergraduate only liberal arts only college lost favor. Still plenty of appeal for the elites like Williams/Amherst, but more of a struggle for the near elites like HC. I like the environment, but perhaps the current college ready marketplace likes it less so, especially at the sticker price. It could be that HC was traditionally viewed as a very good Catholic college (along with several other very good northeast Catholic colleges such as BC, Fordham PC, Nova, etc.) and is still viewed that way. (The fact that we are strictly undergraduate liberal arts and Catholic did not exclude us from that northeast Catholic grouping and application overlap.) And secular prep schools traditionally filled secular liberal arts colleges. Two different tracks. Then and now. And the lessening appeal of the liberal arts does not exclude us from our traditional Catholic grouping (though it may cause relative prestige slippage within that group.)
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 4, 2022 16:49:40 GMT -5
The rest of the PL would certainly give it some thought. As well they should but I don't feel like HC owes the rest of the PL anything. HC gave up a lot athletically to join the PL. I know some argue it was the best of the few options HC had at a crossroads in the early Eighties but I never warmed up to the PL. My guess is there are many others who feel the same. I know you don't and I respect that sentiment. Actually, the PL was an acquired taste that took a long time to appeal to me. I used to read the T&G sports stories talking about the PL standings and say "So what? What about playing BC, UMass, UConn, etc." It took years of Bob Fouracre coming over static filled airwaves from PL outposts on winter nights for me to begin to relate to our PL partners. Then came Ralph Willard and the oxygen starved packed Hart Center for PL championship games and realizing the advantage we had in an eight team league to get to the Dance, and I guess I became a PL fan.
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 4, 2022 16:51:56 GMT -5
Perhaps the extended prep school environment of an undergraduate only liberal arts only college lost favor. Still plenty of appeal for the elites like Williams/Amherst, but more of a struggle for the near elites like HC. I like the environment, but perhaps the current college ready marketplace likes it less so, especially at the sticker price. It could be that HC was traditionally viewed as a very good Catholic college (along with several other very good northeast Catholic colleges such as BC, Fordham PC, Nova, etc.) and is still viewed that way. (The fact that we are strictly undergraduate liberal arts and Catholic did not exclude us from that northeast Catholic grouping and application overlap.) And secular prep schools traditionally filled secular liberal arts colleges. Two different tracks. Then and now. And the lessening appeal of the liberal arts does not exclude us from our traditional Catholic grouping (though it may cause relative prestige slippage within that group.) Thanks for changing tragic to traditional.🙂
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Post by matunuck on Aug 4, 2022 17:14:35 GMT -5
Honestly, in terms of football, I’m far more interested in our non-PL games than League ones. Our OCC schedule is key to having a top program so I’m not really interested in adding more PL games through expansion — with a tiny few exceptions.
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Post by efg72 on Aug 4, 2022 17:28:39 GMT -5
If we can win the conference this year or next, that would give us 4 of 5-- I would recommend we leave the PL at that point and find a better place for football like a new iteration of the CAA with some PL and the best of the CAA
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 4, 2022 17:34:58 GMT -5
If we can win the conference this year or next, that would give us 4 of 5-- I would recommend we leave the PL at that point and find a better place for football like a new iteration of the CAA with some PL and the best of the CAA Maybe we can ask the Atlantic Hockey Association to expand to all sports except FB and take us in after the PL shows us the door. Do we get the same privilege as Navy and Army who negotiated at the beginning to stay in FBS for FB?
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Post by trimster on Aug 4, 2022 17:50:33 GMT -5
As well they should but I don't feel like HC owes the rest of the PL anything. HC gave up a lot athletically to join the PL. I know some argue it was the best of the few options HC had at a crossroads in the early Eighties but I never warmed up to the PL. My guess is there are many others who feel the same. I know you don't and I respect that sentiment. Actually, the PL was an acquired taste that took a long time to appeal to me. I used to read the T&G sports stories talking about the PL standings and say "So what? What about playing BC, UMass, UConn, etc." It took years of Bob Fouracre coming over static filled airwaves from PL outposts on winter nights for me to begin to relate to our PL partners. Then came Ralph Willard and the oxygen starved packed Hart Center for PL championship games and realizing the advantage we had in an eight team league to get to the Dance, and I guess I became a PL fan. The season is about so much more than March. The electric atmosphere of PL championship games against Navy, American and Bucknell were the only times that happened in what, 32 years of the PL. OK, throw in Fordham in ‘90 and that makes four times. We had that atmosphere on a regular basis until, well you know the rest of the story.
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 4, 2022 18:00:23 GMT -5
Actually, the PL was an acquired taste that took a long time to appeal to me. I used to read the T&G sports stories talking about the PL standings and say "So what? What about playing BC, UMass, UConn, etc." It took years of Bob Fouracre coming over static filled airwaves from PL outposts on winter nights for me to begin to relate to our PL partners. Then came Ralph Willard and the oxygen starved packed Hart Center for PL championship games and realizing the advantage we had in an eight team league to get to the Dance, and I guess I became a PL fan. The season is about so much more than March. The electric atmosphere of PL championship games against Navy, American and Bucknell were the only times that happened in what, 32 years of the PL. OK, throw in Fordham in ‘90 and that makes four times. We had that atmosphere on a regular basis until, well you know the rest of the story. So true. We get a quality coach like Duffner, Willard, Chesney, Pearl but then don't follow through with similar quality when they leave and take the winning with them. The time to invest money is when we have a winning program to offer a proven coach. We like to replace our rare winners with unproven D-1 coaches and cross our fingers. With disastrous results.
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Post by efg72 on Aug 4, 2022 18:06:31 GMT -5
If we can win the conference this year or next, that would give us 4 of 5-- I would recommend we leave the PL at that point and find a better place for football like a new iteration of the CAA with some PL and the best of the CAA Maybe we can ask the Atlantic Hockey Association to expand to all sports except FB and take us in after the PL shows us the door. Do we get the same privilege as Navy and Army who negotiated at the beginning to stay in FBS for FB? You control your own destiny when you are good enough
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Post by mm67 on Aug 4, 2022 18:19:02 GMT -5
Perhaps the extended prep school environment of an undergraduate only liberal arts only college lost favor. Still plenty of appeal for the elites like Williams/Amherst, but more of a struggle for the near elites like HC. I like the environment, but perhaps the current college ready marketplace likes it less so, especially at the sticker price. It could be that HC was traditionally viewed as a very good Catholic college (along with several other very good northeast Catholic colleges such as BC, Fordham PC, Nova, etc.) and is still viewed that way. (The fact that we are strictly undergraduate liberal arts and Catholic did not exclude us from that northeast Catholic grouping and application overlap.) And secular prep schools traditionally filled secular liberal arts colleges. Two different tracks. Then and now. And the lessening appeal of the liberal arts does not exclude us from our traditional Catholic grouping (though it may cause relative prestige slippage within that group.) Don't know your age or your background. HC was not considered merely a very good Catholic school at the level of the other colleges you mentioned. HC was viewed by those in academia, in the corporate/business/financial worlds and in the professions as a great school far superior to the schools you had the temerity to lump us with. I know. I was there. Obviously, you were not! Possibly, you have been feasting too much on USNWR. Or you may not be old enough or had the background to know any better. Maybe you are foolishly trolling once again. Certainly you have no knowledge or HC PRIDE!
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 4, 2022 18:21:46 GMT -5
It could be that HC was traditionally viewed as a very good Catholic college (along with several other very good northeast Catholic colleges such as BC, Fordham PC, Nova, etc.) and is still viewed that way. (The fact that we are strictly undergraduate liberal arts and Catholic did not exclude us from that northeast Catholic grouping and application overlap.) And secular prep schools traditionally filled secular liberal arts colleges. Two different tracks. Then and now. And the lessening appeal of the liberal arts does not exclude us from our traditional Catholic grouping (though it may cause relative prestige slippage within that group.) Don't know your age or your background. HC was not considered merely a very good Catholic school at the level of the other colleges you mentioned. HC was viewed by those in academia, in the corporate/business/financial and in the professions as a great school far superior to the schools you had the temerity to lump us with. I know. I was there. Obviously, you were not! Possibly, you have been feasting too much on USNWR. Or you may not be old enough or had the background to know any better. Maybe you are foolishly trolling once again. Certainly you have no HC PRIDE! Never trust anyone under sixty.🙂
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 4, 2022 18:32:30 GMT -5
Maybe we can ask the Atlantic Hockey Association to expand to all sports except FB and take us in after the PL shows us the door. Do we get the same privilege as Navy and Army who negotiated at the beginning to stay in FBS for FB? You control your own destiny when you are good enough The twenty-six non-Chesney coached teams can't control their own destiny under that definition. If Colgate moved to a better basketball league it actually wouldn't bother me, but I can't predict how the PL would respond about their membership for other sports.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Aug 4, 2022 18:57:14 GMT -5
According to my neighbor, the addition of Campbell came at the request of W&M to fill out the far southern part of the conference, and be part of their schedule.-- true? not sure but what I was told Read my prior post in this thread. It was more about appeasing C of C and UNCW. But for sure W&M has as much clout as any CAA member (along with UD) so certainly they were on board.
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Post by alum on Aug 4, 2022 19:55:50 GMT -5
We regularly have discussions here about how our incoming first year students don't have stats as high as those from some other school. Imagine what it will be like if we are not disciplined by something like an AI. I’ve seen folks point out our incoming frosh test stats are a bit lower than our traditional Catholic peers (BC, Nova, Fordham, etc) but there is no doubt they are higher than other Catholic peers (PC, etc.). As far as Holy Cross and AI is concerned I haven’t heard anyone argue our academic reputation has improved since adopting the AI. Maybe the AI protects us from ourselves.
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 4, 2022 20:04:16 GMT -5
According to my neighbor, the addition of Campbell came at the request of W&M to fill out the far southern part of the conference, and be part of their schedule.-- true? not sure but what I was told Read my prior post in this thread. It was more about appeasing C of C and UNCW. But for sure W&M has as much clout as any CAA member (along with UD) so certainly they were on board. The bigger they are (CAA FB) the harder they fall. The classic saying is "If you can't beat them, why not join them?" But HC FB can begin to beat them so why join them?
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Post by gks on Aug 4, 2022 20:06:04 GMT -5
I couldn't care less about the nuts and bolts of the AI.
From this one person's perspective it just seems one more self-imposed, unnecessary restriction Patriot League teams put on themselves. I could see if there was some league-wide academic scandal. It seems it's main rationale is to be used as an excuse why HC can't compete with the UNHs, Villanovas or Richmonds of the world.
It's never made sense to me at all.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Aug 4, 2022 20:14:11 GMT -5
Perhaps the thinking is that the AI ensures a "level playing field" while doing away with it could start a "race to the bottom"? I do understand that the AI is based on each school's position on the academic ladder and that some schools are more selective than others
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 4, 2022 20:37:29 GMT -5
My father was a reporter and bureau chief for the Worcester Gazette during the 1930s when there were different staffs for the morning Telegram and evening Gazette.
On Sunday afternoons he would make extra money by covering semi-pro baseball at Solomon Pond in Northborough for one of the Boston papers. The Gazette required him to use an assumed name. Often Holy Cross or other college players played for a fee under an assumed name. Everybody kept everybody's secret.
So stretching boundaries without seriously harming anyone to get a little ahead is part of human nature and would likely occur without an AI and probably does occur subtlety with an AI.
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Post by mm67 on Aug 4, 2022 20:43:30 GMT -5
Realize some are merely engaging in discussion. Fortunately, this discussion on the PL & AI is moot. The PL consisting of similar academics first schools is the perfect landing spot for HC. The AI is a gift. See KY's perceptive post.
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Post by rgs318 on Aug 4, 2022 20:51:50 GMT -5
The biggest use of the AI seems to be when a school is considering joining the PL. They then see how their athletes match up with those current on PL teams against whom they will be playing (and determining whether or not future recruits can make the PL grade).
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Aug 5, 2022 2:04:35 GMT -5
Perhaps the extended prep school environment of an undergraduate only liberal arts only college lost favor. Still plenty of appeal for the elites like Williams/Amherst, but more of a struggle for the near elites like HC. I like the environment, but perhaps the current college ready marketplace likes it less so, especially at the sticker price. This is accurate. While we are proud to be one of very few Catholic liberal arts COLLEGES, most prospective students who consider Holy Cross are not specifically aspiring to attend a liberal arts school. Unlike the NESCAC schools that have a ton of overlap, HC has more in common with BC, Villanova, Syracuse, Fordham, Providence, Loyola and Fairfield as far as our applicant base. You can probably put Northeastern in that group these days as well.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Aug 5, 2022 2:27:13 GMT -5
In football for the CAA, yes. I think the hoops league is still a slightly more manageable 12 or 13. 14 now. I’d love to see a football league with: Maine UNH Holy Cross URI Bryant Fordham Albany Colgate Villanova While I'm by no means predicting or advicating for the imminent demise of the PL or a breakup in the CAA, Ill take the bait. What you lay out above is most likely to happen through the context of America East football. With the recent rise of some upstart programs in New England, it's more of a possibility now than it was 10 years ago for sure...if UNH and Maine wanted it to happen. Consider this A East Football lineup (assumption that HC and Merrimack would join for all sports): Maine UNH Albany Bryant Merrimack Holy Cross URI (football affiliate) Fordham (football affiliate) I'd actually be ok with this setup for Holy Cross IF joining America East for all sports could somehow be packaged into getting into Hockey East on the men's side.
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