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Post by deep Purple on Aug 5, 2022 5:56:19 GMT -5
I think the only way something like this would happen is if UMass were to drop back to FCS. Then they could form a football only new Yankee conference/alliance.
UMass New Hampshire (caa football only) Maine (caa football only) URI (caa football only) Albany (caa football only) Bryant (big south football only) Fordham (pl football only)
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 5, 2022 6:10:17 GMT -5
I think the only way something like this would happen is if UMass were to drop back to FCS. Then they could form a football only new Yankee conference/alliance. UMass New Hampshire (caa football only) Maine (caa football only) URI (caa football only) Albany (caa football only) Bryant (big south football only) Fordham (pl football only) Fordham? They are New York Yankees, not "aye-up" New England Yankees. They like their short trips to Lehigh and Lafayette and their two other Jesuit schools in the PL. I'm guessing anyway. How can they forget their many years in the cellar of A-10 BB?
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Post by JRGNYR on Aug 5, 2022 14:28:28 GMT -5
You control your own destiny when you are good enough The twenty-six non-Chesney coached teams can't control their own destiny under that definition. If Colgate moved to a better basketball league it actually wouldn't bother me, but I can't predict how the PL would respond about their membership for other sports. Don't spend too much time on it because it won't happen. Every multi-sport D1 conference sponsors basketball, and there are no current examples of schools affiliating their basketball programs with other leagues that isn't their primary one. That's not to say it might not happen in the future, but neither Colgate nor anybody in the Patriot League will be the trailblazers who author such a groundbreaking arrangement.
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Post by mm67 on Aug 5, 2022 14:47:00 GMT -5
IMO if HC were to leave the PL there would be a huge blowback from alums & faculty. Can't predict student response. The administration is well aware of this and the advantages of Pl membership vis a vis the conferences mentioned above. Do not expect any moves soon. Ain't gonna' happen. However, with the intensifying professionalization of athletics in DivI it is more than likely HC would move to DivII or III along with its other PL rivals if DivI FCS f-ball & mid-major b-ball, etc. evolves into something unacceptable. Academics over athletics is the paradigm HC will continue to follow.
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 5, 2022 14:58:54 GMT -5
I am more protective of PL FB since with only five core all sport members playing FB in the league, FB doesn't have a foul to give so to speak like BB does with ten teams.
Good point about every league except specialty leagues like the AHA offering basketball.
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Post by DFW HOYA on Aug 5, 2022 18:25:42 GMT -5
IMO if HC were to leave the PL there would be a huge blowback from alums & faculty. Can't predict student response. The administration is well aware of this and the advantages of Pl membership vis a vis the conferences mentioned above. Do not expect any moves soon. Ain't gonna' happen. Holy Cross may be institutionally loyal, but that may not apply elsewhere. Under the right circumstances, Colgate could leave, Fordham as well.
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Post by efg72 on Aug 5, 2022 18:45:58 GMT -5
Div 2 is never an option for HC- academics are not close
I pray a move to Div 3 would see a reduction of 80% plus in giving and a loss of all matching federal dollars
I would rather have us drop all sports instead of a downgrade
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 5, 2022 19:56:37 GMT -5
Div 2 is never an option for HC- academics are not close I pray a move to Div 3 would see a reduction of 80% plus in giving and a loss of all matching federal dollars I would rather have us drop all sports instead of a downgrade HC is not going to pull a University of Hartford. UH wanted to save money in the worst way possible. And they did. (A take off on the line Michael Dukakis has been using for 34 years on the rubber chicken circuit: "I wanted to run for President in the worst way possible. And I did.")🙂
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Post by gerry on Aug 5, 2022 20:01:38 GMT -5
Thinking about it, the MAAC needed to add last year. They ended up taking The Mount. Curious if they considered adding Colgate. They would have filled in the 400 mile gap between Albany and Buffalo. They have been a much better program than The Mount. Obviously they would have needed an affiliate CAA Football spot.
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Post by purplehaze on Aug 5, 2022 20:57:25 GMT -5
This thread is getting some wild posts - I guess we need football desperately There is than zero chance The MAAC would have approached Colgate and even less of a chance Colgate would have answered any possible call - the MAAC is full of schools admitting 60-80 pct of their applicants while the’Gata is now in the teens
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Aug 6, 2022 5:26:38 GMT -5
Thinking about it, the MAAC needed to add last year. They ended up taking The Mount. Curious if they considered adding Colgate. They would have filled in the 400 mile gap between Albany and Buffalo. They have been a much better program than The Mount. Obviously they would have needed an affiliate CAA Football spot. There is zero chance that Colgate would consider joining the MAAC. The MAAC is a league made up primarily of B-list, has-been Catholic commuter schools mainly in urban areas.
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Post by mm67 on Aug 6, 2022 9:00:43 GMT -5
As the old saying goes, "You are known by the company you keep."
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Post by timholycross on Aug 6, 2022 9:38:16 GMT -5
Thankfully, HC continues to hold onto the "nonsense." Athletics are an activity primarily for the benefit of students. Obviously, some alums like to puff up their chests as though athletic success truly matters in the broad scheme of the mission of a college. Maybe, athletic success is a vicarious, substitute for personal success for some, obviously none on this esteemed board. ( See state U's in the Midwest.). I do not know. I do know that HC during my lifetime has had the well deserved reputation as a fine college which places academics first. Over the decades our reputation for integrity & excellence has spread far & wide in the corridors of academia, the professions (Medicine & Law.), finance and the corporate world. Sports is secondary. For an historical perspective cf former HC great "Bullet Bill" Osmanski HC football coach who lasted for one season in the late '40's. His recruits were denied admission because they did not meet the the academic standards (the AI of the time.) Also, I refer all to the statement by HC in the 50's on the formal creation of the IL. HC adopted the same standard at that time. Today AI serves the same purpose. AI matters more than wins! Peace & good fellowship to all. Osmanski was coaching Holy Cross while practicing dentistry. IN CHICAGO. Was not on the premises several days a week. Commuted via plane (no jets then, so much slower flight times) weekly. Or maybe a train. Not a recipe for success even in the 1940s. Plus the program rebounded pretty quickly when Eddie Anderson came back (and, yes, he did have a "part time job" too, but at a lot closer distance) so I think Osmanski was flat out a bad hire. Your arguments are valid (don't necessarily agree w/all of them) but not your example.
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Post by timholycross on Aug 6, 2022 9:45:43 GMT -5
As the old saying goes, "You are known by the company you keep." The MAAC we left was much more attractive than the MAAC that exists now, both athletically and academically.
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Post by matunuck on Aug 6, 2022 10:03:54 GMT -5
Select schools that don’t have a strict AI are thought of just as well as HC if not more. These schools are well known on this board and graduate their athletes through support and mentoring. I applaud them and don’t feel superior because they’ve chosen a different model for success and enhancing the college experience. Such schools shouldn’t be lumped in others that don’t have an AI and could care less about truly educating their student athletes let alone graduate them.
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Post by hcpride on Aug 6, 2022 10:05:16 GMT -5
Thinking about it, the MAAC needed to add last year. They ended up taking The Mount. Curious if they considered adding Colgate. They would have filled in the 400 mile gap between Albany and Buffalo. They have been a much better program than The Mount. Obviously they would have needed an affiliate CAA Football spot. There is zero chance that Colgate would consider joining the MAAC. The MAAC is a league made up primarily of B-list, has-been Catholic commuter schools mainly in urban areas. Agree regarding Colgate joining the MAAC at this point. At the same time there certainly is no correlation between a sports conference and individual member academic reputations (or at least MIT, U Chicago, Stanford, Duke, Johns Hopkins, NYU, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Wake Forest, Georgetown, Nova, BC, etc. etc. don't think so.). No conference AI for those fine schools, BTW. Here in the PL we have a pretty wide range of academic reputations (Colgate v American, BU v Loyola, etc.) and no magical associative effect (positive or otherwise).
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Post by mm67 on Aug 6, 2022 10:50:06 GMT -5
Thankfully, HC continues to hold onto the "nonsense." Athletics are an activity primarily for the benefit of students. Obviously, some alums like to puff up their chests as though athletic success truly matters in the broad scheme of the mission of a college. Maybe, athletic success is a vicarious, substitute for personal success for some, obviously none on this esteemed board. ( See state U's in the Midwest.). I do not know. I do know that HC during my lifetime has had the well deserved reputation as a fine college which places academics first. Over the decades our reputation for integrity & excellence has spread far & wide in the corridors of academia, the professions (Medicine & Law.), finance and the corporate world. Sports is secondary. For an historical perspective cf former HC great "Bullet Bill" Osmanski HC football coach who lasted for one season in the late '40's. His recruits were denied admission because they did not meet the the academic standards (the AI of the time.) Also, I refer all to the statement by HC in the 50's on the formal creation of the IL. HC adopted the same standard at that time. Today AI serves the same purpose. AI matters more than wins! Peace & good fellowship to all. Osmanski was coaching Holy Cross while practicing dentistry. IN CHICAGO. Was not on the premises several days a week. Commuted via plane (no jets then, so much slower flight times) weekly. Or maybe a train. Not a recipe for success even in the 1940s. Plus the program rebounded pretty quickly when Eddie Anderson came back (and, yes, he did have a "part time job" too, but at a lot closer distance) so I think Osmanski was flat out a bad hire. Your arguments are valid (don't necessarily agree w/all of them) but not your example. Tim, It is my understanding that everyone of Osmanksi's recruits was rejected by admissions. The program was left bare, witness the blowout loss to BC. He was quite annoyed and departed after one disastrous season As you wrote about his overall tenure: "Not a recipe for success." The message was clearly sent by the college. Later publicly promulgated at the time of the official formation of the IL. HC's teams will consist of players who are academically representative of the student body. HC has historically valued academics over athletics. Obviously, the AI is a tool to provide a level playing field while maintaining high academic standards among the PL schools. It helps insulate the schools from the intense pressure to surrender academics "in a few cases" to get the superior athlete. AI is a gift. Peace & good will.
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 6, 2022 11:14:54 GMT -5
As the old saying goes, "You are known by the company you keep." The MAAC we left was much more attractive than the MAAC that exists now, both athletically and academically. This is uncharted territory. I can't recall even a hint of praise for a conference decision made by HC. Evah.
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Post by hc6774 on Aug 7, 2022 9:56:43 GMT -5
Osmanski was coaching Holy Cross while practicing dentistry. IN CHICAGO. Was not on the premises several days a week. Commuted via plane (no jets then, so much slower flight times) weekly. Or maybe a train. Not a recipe for success even in the 1940s. Plus the program rebounded pretty quickly when Eddie Anderson came back (and, yes, he did have a "part time job" too, but at a lot closer distance) so I think Osmanski was flat out a bad hire. Your arguments are valid (don't necessarily agree w/all of them) but not your example. Tim, It is my understanding that everyone of Osmanksi's recruits was rejected by admissions. The program was left bare, witness the blowout loss to BC. He was quite annoyed and departed after one disastrous season As you wrote about his overall tenure: "Not a recipe for success." The message was clearly sent by the college. Later publicly promulgated at the time of the official formation of the IL. HC's teams will consist of players who are academically representative of the student body. HC has historically valued academics over athletics. Obviously, the AI is a tool to provide a level playing field while maintaining high academic standards among the PL schools. It helps insulate the schools from the intense pressure to surrender academics "in a few cases" to get the superior athlete. AI is a gift. Peace & good will. after a week at the beach, I'm late to this discussion I see the AI as the faculty input to the capability of students [athletes?] they want to engage & form. But for the footprint of a football program with male enrollments of > 2000, I don’t think that AI would be an issue with this segment of the campus community. e.g bball program not a problem due to a much smaller footprint Note the Pioneer Football [FCS] League...11 schools, no AI but no scholarships. Davidson [high rank liberal arts school; boast 21 D-1 program >2000 total enrollment] league champs... wonder how rigorous its off-season program is PL has tried this model but found it wanting
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Post by bfoley82 on Aug 7, 2022 14:51:49 GMT -5
Div 2 is never an option for HC- academics are not close Wonder making comments about every D-2 university like this...
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Post by hc87 on Aug 8, 2022 9:22:01 GMT -5
I still believe that Villanova will join the PL as an associate membah in football at some point. The CAA is becoming an unwieldy mess of schools that really doesn't do a helluva lot more for their associate membahs than the PL can if done correctly, see: Holy Cross undah Chesney.
I think our game with them in the playoffs last year "opened a lot of eyes" down there....i.e. "These guys play PL football???"
It may not happen in the next couple of years but I think it will happen eventually....makes too much sense for them geographically, institutionally etc.
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Post by purplehaze on Aug 8, 2022 10:02:26 GMT -5
It will never happen unless the rest of the league steps up their game - 'Nova fans will be saying 'Lehigh plays PL football' when the season opener is basically over by halftime
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Post by longsuffering on Aug 8, 2022 10:05:35 GMT -5
A few years of non playoff appearances due to CAA teams knocking each other out of contention and the green, green grass of Fitton Field will look inviting to the Wildcats.
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Post by sader1970 on Aug 8, 2022 11:46:26 GMT -5
Of course, your speculation might be right but as far as "opening eyes," we lost to the '21 'nova team 21-16, a 5 point loss to a team that didn't go much further in the playoffs. In '09 we lost to the by a larger final margin but the game was closer than the final 38-28 score and 'nova went on to become the national champs.
My point is, I don't think last year is going to open up any eyes at Villanova unless we beat them. Close but no cigar isn't going to cut it.
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Post by gks on Aug 8, 2022 11:47:02 GMT -5
I still believe that Villanova will join the PL as an associate membah in football at some point. The CAA is becoming an unwieldy mess of schools that really doesn't do a helluva lot more for their associate membahs than the PL can if done correctly, see: Holy Cross undah Chesney. I think our game with them in the playoffs last year "opened a lot of eyes" down there....i.e. "These guys play PL football???" It may not happen in the next couple of years but I think it will happen eventually....makes too much sense for them geographically, institutionally etc. Trying to figure out what makes me smash my head against the wall more..... Villanova football to PL or the dreaded flood plain.
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