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Post by Crucis#1 on Feb 15, 2023 19:36:02 GMT -5
Looking forward to reading the book. Hope you do a presentation on campus, especially for the 55th reunion.
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Post by efg72 on Feb 15, 2023 20:11:32 GMT -5
I used to get calls from Professor Ford who taught Comparativeve Government
He had many theories and always an interesting conversation
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Post by timholycross on Feb 16, 2023 15:14:10 GMT -5
Liked the Woody Allen standup routine: "I passed the ad up and I must say, that it took great courage at the time, 'cause I needed the money, I was writing and I needed to be free, creative. I was working on a non-fiction version of the Warren report."
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Post by jkh67 on Feb 17, 2023 21:37:42 GMT -5
HC-ND in '33? Great game for the 88th b-day. Moving along... IL? That ship sailed. Legend has it that in the early 50's the IL voted 7-1 to admit HC. Harvard was the lone holdout. Certainly, HC does not fit the small-medium sized research university IL paradigm. Never gonna' happen. ND/G-Town? Years later HC leadership believed DivIII NESCAC was a better fit. Despite HC's entreaties NESCAC never considered HC for membership. HC was dismissed w/out a hearing, on the outside, looking in. Again, never gonna' happen. For years HC was an orphan, an independent with no conference and no clear identity in athletics. Lo & behold the Colonial/PL... With HC's enrollment growth the school has crossed the Rubicon to Div.I for the foreseeable future until the inevitable mass extinction. I heard that IL story, too. So, Princeton and Yale voted to admit HC, but Harvard alone stood in the way? Puhleeze! I thought it was total BS then and still do today. I wrote it off to wishful thinking from some folks who drank too much of that purple Kool-Aid. I don't remember hearing about the NESCAC caper. If HC did in fact beg for membership, the very idea would presumably have generated mucho ogita and negative publicity among the alumni, regardless of the state of HC football in the year we supposedly tried to do the Canossa routine.. With the ongoing turmoil in college football, there may well be opportunities for the PL to substantially strengthen its profile in the sport in coming years. Here's hoping the league will have the foresight and intestinal fortitude to do what it can to beef up PL football.
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Post by sader1970 on Feb 17, 2023 21:51:42 GMT -5
I'm looking forward to Ash Wednesday.
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Post by Crucis#1 on Feb 18, 2023 1:28:34 GMT -5
HC leadership did discuss membership in the NESCAC in 1996. I remember being at a HC reception in Washington, the weekend of the Georgetown game, when the HC President at the time clearly stated that it was being considered. I was appalled!
I will refrain from stating what I really thought and said to myself at the time.
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Post by alum on Feb 18, 2023 6:43:31 GMT -5
A Bay Stater made an important speech at Rice while selling the goal of putting a man on the moon "in this decade." Responding to the question of why go to the moon, JFK compared it to this question which pleased the audience: "Why does Rice play Texas?" HC has a professor who studies the JFK era and she put on a marvelous alumni presentation at the JFK Library a few years ago. BTW, why does Holy Cross play Boston College? The father of colleague Peter Fenn -going back to the Senate Intel days, ran the library until just recently i am almost finished my book on the assassination, a significantly revised version of the Committee final report. It can’t be released until 2026 when the US Senate allows for our documents to be released -if they do You should check out Beverly Gage’s new book on J Edgar Hoover. It has an interesting discussion about Hoover and the FBI’s involvement with and resistance to the Warren Commission’ work—and a fascinating look at the life of a guy whose career touched most of the events of the first three quarters of the American century.
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Post by rgs318 on Feb 18, 2023 7:41:44 GMT -5
I don't remember hearing about the NESCAC caper. If HC did in fact beg for membership, the very idea would presumably have generated mucho ogita and negative publicity among the alumni, regardless of the state of HC football in the year we supposedly tried to do the Canossa routine. I heard that HC inquired about possible membersh ip. I never heard about begging for anything and any eed to do that would have. ended inquiry immediately, I am sure. You may be getting a bit carried away with your expression.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Feb 18, 2023 8:10:21 GMT -5
I do like the idea of playing Rice, Tulane, Duke, etc. But, do they? Why would these schools want to play HC? What do they gain? HC does not increase the national exposure of these FBS teams. HC does not have hundreds of thousands of alums around the nation.What is in it for these "vulnerable"FBS teams other than a possible loss to a top FCS team? If they win they gain nothing because they are expected to win. If they lose, the coach might get fired. It's a lose, lose for these schools & their coaches. In all likelihood Northeast FBS teams will be HC's primary FBS opponents. The group of private high-academic FBS schools you mentioned all play an FCS team pretty much every year. But they usually play local opponents for smaller guarantees. No need for Rice to fly Holy Cross down when they can cut a much smaller check to Texas Southern, who can bus across town. It's not impossible that such a game could happen, all it takes is some kind of coach or AD connection between schools for games to get scheduled. Duke is playing Lafayette in a couple years and my parents went to see William & Mary play Tulane at the Superdome in the early 1990's.
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Post by timholycross on Feb 18, 2023 8:13:06 GMT -5
The NESCAC dalliance was most certainly a highlight (lowlight) in the Rev. Gerry Reedy Reign of Error.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Feb 18, 2023 8:15:37 GMT -5
HC-ND in '33? Great game for the 88th b-day. Moving along... IL? That ship sailed. Legend has it that in the early 50's the IL voted 7-1 to admit HC. Harvard was the lone holdout. Certainly, HC does not fit the small-medium sized research university IL paradigm. Never gonna' happen. ND/G-Town? Years later HC leadership believed DivIII NESCAC was a better fit. Despite HC's entreaties NESCAC never considered HC for membership. HC was dismissed w/out a hearing, on the outside, looking in. Again, never gonna' happen. For years HC was an orphan, an independent with no conference and no clear identity in athletics. Lo & behold the Colonial/PL... With HC's enrollment growth the school has crossed the Rubicon to Div.I for the foreseeable future until the inevitable mass extinction. I heard that IL story, too. So, Princeton and Yale voted to admit HC, but Harvard alone stood in the way? Puhleeze! I thought it was total BS then and still do today. I wrote it off to wishful thinking from some folks who drank too much of that purple Kool-Aid.I don't remember hearing about the NESCAC caper. If HC did in fact beg for membership, the very idea would presumably have generated mucho ogita and negative publicity among the alumni, regardless of the state of HC football in the year we supposedly tried to do the Canossa routine.. With the ongoing turmoil in college football, there may well be opportunities for the PL to substantially strengthen its profile in the sport in coming years. Here's hoping the league will have the foresight and intestinal fortitude to do what it can to beef up PL football. Love this dose of reality! In another 70 years, people will be posting on Crossports that Holy Cross was the one who rejected the Ivy League! It's funny -- the story I heard when I was on the Hill was that sometime in the 1950's or 1960's, the Ivy League expressed interest in adding Holy Cross but wanted us to drop the Jesuit affiliation and change our name to Fenwick College. Did all the Ivies have grad programs by then? I'm sure that's one more thing we would've had to change if that was the case, to get in. So essentially it would have been a totally different school -- and one that most of us wouldn't have gotten into, myself included! Anyway, I don't even know how true that rumor is. I actually think it was written in an article in the Holy Cross newspaper (formerly called The Crusader prior to the woke mob demanded it be changed).
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Post by efg72 on Feb 18, 2023 9:06:53 GMT -5
The father of colleague Peter Fenn -going back to the Senate Intel days, ran the library until just recently i am almost finished my book on the assassination, a significantly revised version of the Committee final report. It can’t be released until 2026 when the US Senate allows for our documents to be released -if they do You should check out Beverly Gage’s new book on J Edgar Hoover. It has an interesting discussion about Hoover and the FBI’s involvement with and resistance to the Warren Commission’ work—and a fascinating look at the life of a guy whose career touched most of the events of the first three quarters of the American century. Thanks Warren Commission was blocked most of the way by the intelligence community. Most of the resistance was self inflicted as they either asked the wrong questions, didn't know the questions to ask, didn't understand the community, or trusted the community to just give them the important info. Clearly different times and a complicated world- CIA and NSA were the problems as they had ongoing programs they didn't want exposed. The FBI didn't want it's sources made public etc- our Senate files aren't eligible for review until 2026, and then it is unlikely they will be released. There were a few we interviewed/deposed/testimony, that were killed immediately after they talked to us so interesting times back then for sure- I guess the statement that dead men can't speak anymore has some truth
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Post by timholycross on Feb 18, 2023 11:24:04 GMT -5
I can't understand how in 2026 there is anything involving a person or persons that needs to be concealed.
I'll be 75 that year and 12 when it happened. Oswald, had he survived; was by far the youngest person involved and he'd be 87.
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Post by joe on Feb 18, 2023 11:48:58 GMT -5
I heard that IL story, too. So, Princeton and Yale voted to admit HC, but Harvard alone stood in the way? Puhleeze! I thought it was total BS then and still do today. I wrote it off to wishful thinking from some folks who drank too much of that purple Kool-Aid.I don't remember hearing about the NESCAC caper. If HC did in fact beg for membership, the very idea would presumably have generated mucho ogita and negative publicity among the alumni, regardless of the state of HC football in the year we supposedly tried to do the Canossa routine.. With the ongoing turmoil in college football, there may well be opportunities for the PL to substantially strengthen its profile in the sport in coming years. Here's hoping the league will have the foresight and intestinal fortitude to do what it can to beef up PL football. Love this dose of reality! In another 70 years, people will be posting on Crossports that Holy Cross was the one who rejected the Ivy League! It's funny -- the story I heard when I was on the Hill was that sometime in the 1950's or 1960's, the Ivy League expressed interest in adding Holy Cross but wanted us to drop the Jesuit affiliation and change our name to Fenwick College. Did all the Ivies have grad programs by then? I'm sure that's one more thing we would've had to change if that was the case, to get in. So essentially it would have been a totally different school -- and one that most of us wouldn't have gotten into, myself included! Anyway, I don't even know how true that rumor is. I actually think it was written in an article in the Holy Cross newspaper (formerly called The Crusader prior to the woke mob demanded it be changed). I heard that Fenwick College thjng too, always figured it to be urban legend.
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Feb 18, 2023 13:08:50 GMT -5
The legend is preposterous in my opinion, but certainly entertaining
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Post by mm67 on Feb 18, 2023 14:51:46 GMT -5
Agree HC to the IL was an urban legend. This is the main point: HC was an orphan in a no-man's land. It was Div. I but not big time nor was it a bottom of the barrel. The school's leadership wisely (in my view) realized HC needed a conference affiliation to give it a place. For better(me) or worse(others) HC with Harvard created the Colonial League. Admittedly it has not evolved as I thought it would. But, IMO the PL is the best fit for HC. The decision on 5th year non-medical redshirts will be most interesting. I don't anticipate a change. HC has my full throated support.
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Post by rgs318 on Feb 18, 2023 16:22:44 GMT -5
I echo "better"
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Post by trimster on Feb 18, 2023 17:03:11 GMT -5
Agree HC to the IL was an urban legend. This is the main point: HC was an orphan in a no-man's land. It was Div. I but not big time nor was it a bottom of the barrel. The school's leadership wisely (in my view) realized HC needed a conference affiliation to give it a place. For better(me) or worse(others) HC with Harvard created the Colonial League. Admittedly it has not evolved as I thought it would. But, IMO the PL is the best fit for HC. The decision on 5th year non-medical redshirts will be most interesting. I don't anticipate a change. HC has my full throated support. Out of curiosity, how did you think it was going to evolve? I do agree with the no-man’s land point.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Feb 18, 2023 17:23:44 GMT -5
Agree HC to the IL was an urban legend. This is the main point: HC was an orphan in a no-man's land. It was Div. I but not big time nor was it a bottom of the barrel. The school's leadership wisely (in my view) realized HC needed a conference affiliation to give it a place. For better(me) or worse(others) HC with Harvard created the Colonial League. Admittedly it has not evolved as I thought it would. But, IMO the PL is the best fit for HC. The decision on 5th year non-medical redshirts will be most interesting. I don't anticipate a change. HC has my full throated support. I think the "orphan" reference is a bit hyperbolic. Into the 1980's there were dozens of Division I independents playing at a variety of different levels. Schools just formed informal regional groups and played amongst each other -- and these groups would be slightly different in various sports. Hence in football, HC's annual rivals consisted of the likes of BC, Dartmouth, Colgate, Harvard, Syracuse, Army and BU. Meanwhile, in basketball our group consisted more so of Providence, UConn, BC, Fordham, Dartmouth and UMass. It wasn't until we approached the nineties that conference affiliation became a must for just about everyone except for Notre Dame and the service academies in football. Joining the Colonial League was an ideological thing at the time, rather than a "get to the choppah" move of desperation. At that time, Holy Cross would've had a number of options in both football and basketball that would've been better moves for us athletically in the long term than the PL.
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Post by hc87 on Feb 18, 2023 17:44:26 GMT -5
The PL initially killed HC football....but it works in the schollie era imo.
The PL basically has destroyed HC hoop....which was on a downward trajectory in the ECAC North and MAAC era as well...
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Post by mm67 on Feb 18, 2023 18:22:18 GMT -5
There was no desperation. Over the years it was quite apparent that HC football was in a no-man's land. From the late 40's onward the overall trend was down despite some successes.Certainly HC was not competitive w/BC & Syracuse and Army. Unlimited substitutions( rule change1960's) with huge rosters which HC never could match. HC was nowhere on the level of the Lambert Trophy teams Pitt, W.Va. BC Penn State, Syracuse Army, Navy). And, the Lambert Cup was not on the horizon.HC's cohort at that time was Colgate, and the IL There was a brief dalliance with the Yankee Conference. "The Cross is back" foolishness in the 70's. Oh, please.HC football would not have survived as a Div.1 independent. That's the reality. One could argue the great Fr. Brooks in fact saved Div 1 football at HC. Unfortunately increased emphasis on football by the IL schools pushed HC and Colgate (did not traditionally award athletic scholarships) & the Pennsylvania PL schools (formerly Div2) to athletic scholarships. Brooks has a building and a music hall named after him, no?
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Post by efg72 on Feb 18, 2023 18:23:13 GMT -5
The PL initially killed HC football....but it works in the schollie era imo. The PL basically has destroyed HC hoop....which was on a downward trajectory in the ECAC North and MAAC era as well... It has killed quality from the middle to the bottom Not a real league but an ability to schedule six opponents allegedly with the same values- but if honest we know that is not true If the league survives it must eliminate the control that exists in PA and rebrand from we just want to have a league to we are the future of college sports
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Post by efg72 on Feb 18, 2023 18:37:20 GMT -5
There was no desperation. Over the years it was quite apparent that HC football was in a no-man's land. From the late 40's onward the overall trend was down despite some successes.Certainly HC was not competitive w/BC & Syracuse and Army. Unlimited substitutions( rule change1960's) with huge rosters which HC never could match. HC was nowhere on the level of the Lambert Trophy teams Pitt, W.Va. BC Penn State, Syracuse Army, Navy). And, the Lambert Cup was not on the horizon.HC's cohort at that time was Colgate, and the IL There was a brief dalliance with the Yankee Conference. "The Cross is back" foolishness in the 70's. Oh, please.HC football would not have survived as a Div.1 independent. That's the reality. One could argue the great Fr. Brooks in fact saved Div 1 football at HC. Unfortunately increased emphasis on football by the IL schools pushed HC and Colgate (did not traditionally award athletic scholarships) & the Pennsylvania PL schools (formerly Div2) to athletic scholarships. Brooks has a building and a music hall named after him, no? Mm67 you are among the best, brightest, and most thoughtful posters, and yes I stop and reflect after each of your posts!✝️✝️✝️✝️ However, the last sentence and the Brooks vision speaks volumes about his intention to reframe athletics at our school Unlike most posters and alums, I blame him for the athletic and academic reputation failures of the last four decades- he had no plan B, C or D and that is part of leadership. With that said my rejections of his leadership don't solve the issues we face at Holy Cross to build the right endowment and the best future for academics and athletics at our great school. Let's stop the adulation of a generous but flawed President, and figure out how we move forward to ensure we keep the best Holy Cross possible.
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Post by hcpride on Feb 18, 2023 19:16:02 GMT -5
We were playing a nice football schedule in the 1980’s prior to Father Brooks’ disastrous Colonial/Patriot decision. Take 1984, for example: URI, UMASS, Harvard, Dartmouth, Colgate, UCONN, Brown, BU, UNH, BC. A very nice schedule and our team was very good during this Carter period. That particular year we got to # 2 but finished “down” at #15. And our school’s academic reputation and ranking were strong. I’ve always thought Father Brooks’ Colonial/PL non-schollie initiative was driven by some sort of unrequited Ivy love.
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Post by efg72 on Feb 18, 2023 19:22:37 GMT -5
What once was needed Chesney to create what is today
Let's never allow it to return to what Brooks created in the 90s and beyond for all sports. The mystic of the ivy dream blinded his otherwise brilliance
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