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Post by CHC8485 on Oct 9, 2017 7:32:15 GMT -5
Believe TD is talking about the shoulder injuries to two starting defensive players in the first quarter - Ryan Brady & Chris Riley.
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Post by Sons of Vaval on Oct 9, 2017 7:34:52 GMT -5
Injuries happen.
Let's also not be fooled by Pujals' record-setting performance and the fact we put up 36 points -- the game was already well in hand for Monmouth, and the last few scores were in garbage time.
Going to be really challenging next weekend in New Haven.
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Post by WCHC Sports on Oct 9, 2017 7:49:32 GMT -5
-- I've recently cemented my opinion that HC football should be folded, the scholarship money invested in other sports programs (like basketball, and hockey, where we CAN have easier success, at the highest levels, and have cracked relevancy more recently than 50 years ago like football), and we focus there. We'll likely have fewer Title IX accommodating to do and can save money on some other fringe sports that exist just to buffer the scholarships doled out for football. HC athletics right now is like a summer camp. Everybody gets to play, the level of competition is not the strongest, and we encourage every sort of excuse rather than prioritizing winning. WCHC, I absolutely disagree that folding HC football should be viewed as an opportunity to grow our athletic brand. While basketball is certainly the sport that drives the apple cart here, we have just as rich a football history as we do basketball. The Duffner era wasn't THAT long ago. Lockbaum was in the Heisman race in the late 80's. We were in the NCAA playoffs in 2009 (granted this feels like terribly long ago now) and we've had a couple guys get cups of coffee in the NFL of late. Wasn't even a decade ago that 22,000 people showed up to watch a Friday night game between Holy Cross and Harvard. While we don't play "at the highest level" being FCS, it doesn't mean the sport is less relevant to alumni and to the school's overall sports culture. North Dakota State football doesn't play at the highest level but it's still more relevant nationally than, say, Rider basketball. HC basketball plays at the highest level in name only. We have ZERO chance to compete for a championship in Division I but that doesn't mean I'm not going to follow it. Winning the PL still means something to fans, just like it does in football. Beating BC and Harvard are still important milestones, even though our respective teams have no chance of competing for the NCAA Division I Basketball Championship or the FBS National Championship. Another thing to point out - how many schools have seen tangible improvements to their basketball programs as a direct result of cutting football? Villanova brought football back in 1987 and has done just fine on the hardwood while maintaining very solid FCS success in football. Wichita State is thinking about bringing football back now because they are afraid the lack of a football team is hurting their ability to upgrade conference affiliation. I do very much agree with you on the reasons for FCS football decline in the Northeast. In addition to that, I think the lack of a vibrant Friday night HS football culture in the Northeast hurts as well. Kids down south, in the Midwest and probably a lot of California grow up with the weekly football game being the centerpiece of a typical late summer/fall week. Then, when they go to college, it's just a part of life to go to their school's game on Saturday. In New England, it's a battle to get students to go to games after September of their freshman year. The ability for us to stream games online also a factor. I did not attend the Monmouth game yesterday. Not because I would rather watch a Big Ten game from the comfort of my Bronx couch but because I had errands to run and work to catch up on and am now able to do that on a Saturday all the while watching the Crusaders. Ten years ago, I probably drive up to Worcester for the day. But yesterday my attitude was, why give up a whole day for this non-conference game when I can just watch in HD at home on the big screen, get my work done, and then just make the pilgrimage up in two weeks for a bigger game against Colgate (I'll be at Yale too, BTW)? HC Football is not growing the whole College's athletic brand, just the same that Villanova football is not growing their athletic brand. Basketball grows Villanova's brand. The country does not know Villanova for their football, unless you're a D1 AA fanatic like the folks on this board. Citing Gordy Lockbaum from the 80s as relevant thirty years later, after thirty years of the program floundering, is not a strong case. We should not disparage the history, but we cannot use it as a crutch. The Yankees were not the Yankees for 90 years because they just said we used to have Babe Ruth. They got DiMaggio. They got Mantle. They got Guidry. They got Mattingly. They got Jeter. It was a continuous stream of excellence, commitment to a brand, beating whomever was in their path, and either outspending or outbuilding or outsmarting or out-marketing or out-competing the competition. What was so special about the Duffner era? Did we win a national championship? I missed that game. I can remember one LEAGUE championship in 14 years, and this is a league a fair amount of folks on this board say A) we're too big for, B) the opponents in it are assumed wins/lesser programs, and C) we constantly should be looking to change. Villanova is a different animal, so I wouldn't assume that the nixing of their football program would move the needle, given the massive success and size of their basketball program. However, for Holy Cross, given OUR resources, I think it would move the needle noticeably and appreciably. On your last point you agreed with me that you had better things to do than come to the HC game. Now for some, it's watching games they'd rather watch from the comfort of their lazy backsides. For others, it was running errands for their wives or kids. My point stays the same: everything is competing for those precious Saturday hours. What is Holy Cross doing to win that fight?
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Post by joe on Oct 9, 2017 7:51:05 GMT -5
Unfortunately injuries are the cost of doing business in football, from Pop Warner to the pros. I would wager most of our opponents have injuries as well, possibly to key players. I guess part of the art of winning is expecting injuries to happen and having contingencies in place for when they do.
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Post by inhocsigno on Oct 9, 2017 9:00:04 GMT -5
A few general comments to the vitriol on here each time we lose. We are all frustrated, presumably because of the strong showing at the start of the season and renewed optimism therefrom.
Injuries do happen in football. Hell, I have had more surgeries than I care to remember. However, rarely do they happen to almost an entire 2 deep of Safeties and several CB's. It is increasingly problematic at the FCS level due to the lack of depth per roster and scholarship limits. That will certainly open the passing game to an opponent.
Someone mentioned dropping football to focus on basketball. That is a silly notion. You can have both. The idea is offensive to the history of the school, every player or fan that spent time and effort to be a part of the program, and will have the direct effect of relegating the school to the level of some mid-west mid-major program no one cares about. There is no reason that both football and basketball cannot be successful. Success for one may in fact have an effect on the success of the other. We need to create and foster a winning culture across all sports, baseball, hockey, BB and football.
Someone mentioned that the non-scholarship era was trash, etc. In comparison to the heyday of the Duffner era, I suppose one may make that argument. I think that you fail to realize however that many players were essentially scholarship (in the sense they chose HC because it was free to them). I, like many of my teammates, chose HC, over scholarship offers and some of us, over Ivy offers, because 1. we believed in the program, 2. it was the equivalent of receiving a scholarship (i.e. parental contribution nil fin aid plus fb alumni memorial grant) and 3. the academic level of the school (realistically, we understood we were not going to be playing on Sundays). Your comment is offensive to every player who spent 4 years bleeding purple. Accordingly, F**k you.
Simply, the single greatest obstacle to taking the next step in football is how shallow the recruiting pool is for HC. There are a finite number of players that are: (a) good enough to play at this level; AND (b) academically qualified to get past admissions. Of that pool, you can remove the top % players that will chose a FBS school, regardless of the education. Of the remainder, you now compete with not only the academic-rich FCS scholarship programs (Villanova, Wm & Mary, etc.), but also what is essentially a full scholarship Ivy league. Not to bad mouth the prep school bunch, but generally your best players in the nation are from less affluent backgrounds, and thus qualify for free Ivy education. With the state of public education in this country (particularly in less affluent areas), the vast majority of HS "good enough" players will not be close to qualifying for HC. Scholarships puts us in a better position to compete for players from this finite group. PERIOD. The most important factors at this point which will help us recruit and take the next step: 1. appearance - branding, facilities, uniforms, etc. - while this sounds silly, it is important to today's crop of HC recruits; 2. efforts to enhance the support of the program, the reach of the networks, etc.; and 3. Winning. The first is being handled by the school and ADNP and while a work in progress, is going in the right direction. The second is being handled by TD128 and the Friends, and I have the feeling that he is just getting started. The third is certainly lacking, but we can start with a PL title. That would put us at an advantage in recruiting against other PL teams. Make noise in the playoffs. That would put in a better position to recruit against other FCS teams. Beat a FBS opponent. That would be a stretch, but the results would be excellent from a national recruiting perspective, name recognition perspective, etc. Even a win against a down UConn team would have been a big swoon for the program. Anyone who thinks we were not in that game, or did not have the chance to win, was not watching it.
From what I have seen this year, this team has the ability to win the league. Say what you will about the PL, that is the goal each and every year. That does not mean it is or should be the only goal. I have not seen the defense play this well in the last 17 years. I am, of course, disappointed with Dartmouth and Laf losses and general consistency. Assuming we can get healed on defense, can be more consistent on offense, and eliminate errors/penalties (both coaching and players), there is no reason why this team cannot win the league.
In sum, everyone should take a step back, take a breath, and see if the team we saw against UNH and UConn is the real team, or if the team is the one we saw against Laf. I think we will be pleasantly surprised if this team is the former and not the latter.
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Post by hc6774 on Oct 9, 2017 9:05:50 GMT -5
Believe TD is talking about the shoulder injuries to two starting defensive players in the first quarter - Ryan Brady & Chris Riley. Brady came back, not sure when, & lead the team in tackles; we seem to lack the receiver who can threaten to take the top off of the D. post game comment by Brendan? the radio color guy... the unavailability of DeNicola after a few plays in the first half and words to the effect that his unavailability is a recurring problem
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Post by KY Crusader 75 on Oct 9, 2017 9:08:28 GMT -5
inhocsigno: Great insights and feedback from one who played the game at HC. Tell us, please: what effect do you feel the new practice facility and the rest of the Luth Complex will have on recruiting and training football players?
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Post by jkh67 on Oct 9, 2017 9:10:51 GMT -5
A few general comments to the vitriol on here each time we lose. We are all frustrated, presumably because of the strong showing at the start of the season and renewed optimism therefrom. Injuries do happen in football. Hell, I have had more surgeries than I care to remember. However, rarely do they happen to almost an entire 2 deep of Safeties and several CB's. It is increasingly problematic at the FCS level due to the lack of depth per roster and scholarship limits. That will certainly open the passing game to an opponent. Someone mentioned dropping football to focus on basketball. That is a silly notion. You can have both. The idea is offensive to the history of the school, every player or fan that spent time and effort to be a part of the program, and will have the direct effect of relegating the school to the level of some mid-west mid-major program no one cares about. There is no reason that both football and basketball cannot be successful. Success for one may in fact have an effect on the success of the other. We need to create and foster a winning culture across all sports, baseball, hockey, BB and football. Someone mentioned that the non-scholarship era was trash, etc. In comparison to the heyday of the Duffner era, I suppose one may make that argument. I think that you fail to realize however that many players were essentially scholarship (in the sense they chose HC because it was free to them). I, like many of my teammates, chose HC, over scholarship offers and some of us, over Ivy offers, because 1. we believed in the program, 2. it was the equivalent of receiving a scholarship (i.e. parental contribution nil fin aid plus fb alumni memorial grant) and 3. the academic level of the school (realistically, we understood we were not going to be playing on Sundays). Your comment is offensive to every player who spent 4 years bleeding purple. Accordingly, F**k you. Simply, the single greatest obstacle to taking the next step in football is how shallow the recruiting pool is for HC. There are a finite number of players that are: (a) good enough to play at this level; AND (b) academically qualified to get past admissions. Of that pool, you can remove the top % players that will chose a FBS school, regardless of the education. Of the remainder, you now compete with not only the academic-rich FCS scholarship programs (Villanova, Wm & Mary, etc.), but also what is essentially a full scholarship Ivy league. Not to bad mouth the prep school bunch, but generally your best players in the nation are from less affluent backgrounds, and thus qualify for free Ivy education. With the state of public education in this country (particularly in less affluent areas), the vast majority of HS "good enough" players will not be close to qualifying for HC. Scholarships puts us in a better position to compete for players from this finite group. PERIOD. The most important factors at this point which will help us recruit and take the next step: 1. appearance - branding, facilities, uniforms, etc. - while this sounds silly, it is important to today's crop of HC recruits; 2. efforts to enhance the support of the program, the reach of the networks, etc.; and 3. Winning. The first is being handled by the school and ADNP and while a work in progress, is going in the right direction. The second is being handled by TD128 and the Friends, and I have the feeling that he is just getting started. The third is certainly lacking, but we can start with a PL title. That would put us at an advantage in recruiting against other PL teams. Make noise in the playoffs. That would put in a better position to recruit against other FCS teams. Beat a FBS opponent. That would be a stretch, but the results would be excellent from a national recruiting perspective, name recognition perspective, etc. Even a win against a down UConn team would have been a big swoon for the program. Anyone who thinks we were not in that game, or did not have the chance to win, was not watching it. From what I have seen this year, this team has the ability to win the league. Say what you will about the PL, that is the goal each and every year. That does not mean it is or should be the only goal. I have not seen the defense play this well in the last 17 years. I am, of course, disappointed with Dartmouth and Laf losses and general consistency. Assuming we can get healed on defense, can be more consistent on offense, and eliminate errors/penalties (both coaching and players), there is no reason why this team cannot win the league. In sum, everyone should take a step back, take a breath, and see if the team we saw against UNH and UConn is the real team, or if the team is the one we saw against Laf. I think we will be pleasantly surprised if this team is the former and not the latter. Speaking of "vitriol", your "Accordingly F**k you" comment was most unfortunate. It was insulting to the folks who regularly participate on this board and bleed purple as much...or more...than you do. And it was demeaning to Holy Cross as an institution. Go to your room!
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Post by joe on Oct 9, 2017 9:22:01 GMT -5
Inhocsigno tells much truth. The perceived drop-off from Duffner to Vaas in terms of player personnel was partly because HC had been playing with a stacked deck for many years, playing with scholarships against many non-scholarship teams who, back then, did not emphasize football, as did HC. I was there during that transition and was admittedly far from being a star, believe me, very far from that. But I can promise you there were great athletes on scholarship, great guys, and equally great athletes on de-facto scholarship under the guise of "financial aid," tough guys from blue collar towns that would take a bullet for you, and who you would want in the trenches with you, most of whom had Ivy offers and some BCS offers. This was also the time when the Ivies started gaming their own system to be on equal footing with HC who had been pounding them for years. IL teams always played HC with a chip on their shoulders after years of abuse from HC. In fact both the PL and IL attempted to play the same game in the 90s, but the IL won that battle because they were able to game the system better; in fact some would say they abused it, and continue to abuse it to this day. An IL school will always have a better academic rep that HC, and the major football schools in the IL put endless grant and aid money toward the sport, which can then be seen, matched, an exceeded school to school, almost like a bidding war or an auction. HC could not compete then, and would not be able to compete now on those terms, no matter how good or "special" HC is academically. Back then there was the same kind of talent, just more of it and deeper in the IL. Among my friends, we collectively turned down Harvard, Dartmouth, Columbia, and Penn, and that's just what I can remember many years (and head injuries) later.
Now, with scholarships the PL should be like a stock car race. We should all have the same horses now as things are standardized. The PL and IL should also be on at least equal footing with each other, and the academics of both should allow us to compete with the CAA. Success now should be all in the way the game is played. How do we play it better? Ask yourselves; I'll stay out of that.
As for Luth, can't hurt. What would have been better was moving football to Fitton and building a dedicated space there. Not complaining though.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 9, 2017 9:37:32 GMT -5
Someone mentioned dropping football to focus on basketball. That is a silly notion. You can have both. The idea is offensive to the history of the school, every player or fan that spent time and effort to be a part of the program, and will have the direct effect of relegating the school to the level of some mid-west mid-major program no one cares about. There is no reason that both football and basketball cannot be successful. Success for one may in fact have an effect on the success of the other. We need to create and foster a winning culture across all sports, baseball, hockey, BB and football. Assuming you are aware that two of our former football competitors (BU and Northeastern) gave up football and are doing extraordinarily well in terms of academic reputation/academic rankings I would not dismiss the suggestion with the descriptor of 'silly'. (I am aware they are both in Boston and we are in Worcester and Villanova is in Philadelphia). I am not suggesting HC go in that direction. One has to remain open to the idea that the move to PL football schollies may have been unnecessary and unavailing (and costly): - If the HC football goal is to win PL, that HC football goal is not more attainable if the entire PL goes scholly. - If, on the other hand PL goes football scholly because they want to close a gap with IVY, close a gap with CAA and maintain superiority with NEC well...... gap to Ivy isn't closing, gap with CAA isn't closing, and NEC counter-intuitively seems to be opening up a gap where pre-scholly there was none. Now, there may of course be other HC goals (building the brand in a time of diminishing reputation/recognition among prospective students, etc) but one has to admit there are valid points on both sides of the football scholarship matter. (This is separate and apart from changes in Ivy League financial aid practices towards all of their students).
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Post by inhocsigno on Oct 9, 2017 9:38:22 GMT -5
inhocsigno: Great insights and feedback from one who played the game at HC. Tell us, please: what effect do you feel the new practice facility and the rest of the Luth Complex will have on recruiting and training football players? It will have a positive effect. Obviously, HC is not presently considered a destination program & FCS in general is viewed as being small time, especially by players from the South, SW and West Coast. Thus, any facilities that provide the appearance of a "big time" football/sports program will influence recruits. The present group of HS recruits is heavily influenced by the "bling" of facilities, locker rooms, etc. ESPN does profiles all the time and these kids see that. If the academic schedule was not so onerous, we would be a players lounge with video games and pool tables away from being in the general neighborhood, albeit on the outskirts. I honestly don't know the present state of facilities at other schools at our level, and particularly in the Ivies and PL - our main recruiting counterparts. However, from my experience, the Luth looks better than any place I took an official visit to - Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth and Penn - but that was 20+ years ago. They may have better facilities now. Presumably, the Luth is impressive from a comparison standpoint to other current FCS facilties (excluding the non-FBS state schools, e.g. Montana, Dakotas, etc.). Any recruit should view it most favorably. From a performance standpoint, most recruits won't understand how great the Luth will be because they will not have experienced the 6AM winter running sessions on what is now the Lacrosse field. Jeff Oliver is one of the best in the business (and I mean that objectively). He will put the Luth to good use. The incorporation of 'cross-fit style/bootcamp' workouts with the traditional FB power lifts require more room. I expect that players will get more quality work in. In the past, workouts were crafted to the facilities available in the offseason (e.g. running on the BB court) when weather was bad outdoors. The Luth will allow Jeff to do the workouts he wants to do and would expect better off-season gains, or at least more efficient winter maintenance programs.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 9, 2017 9:53:06 GMT -5
inhocsigno: Great insights and feedback from one who played the game at HC. Tell us, please: what effect do you feel the new practice facility and the rest of the Luth Complex will have on recruiting and training football players? It will have a positive effect. Obviously, HC is not presently considered a destination program & FCS in general is viewed as being small time, especially by players from the South, SW and West Coast. Thus, any facilities that provide the appearance of a "big time" football/sports program will influence recruits. The present group of HS recruits is heavily influenced by the "bling" of facilities, locker rooms, etc. ESPN does profiles all the time and these kids see that. If the academic schedule was not so onerous, we would be a players lounge with video games and pool tables away from being in the general neighborhood, albeit on the outskirts. I honestly don't know the present state of facilities at other schools at our level, and particularly in the Ivies and PL - our main recruiting counterparts. However, from my experience, the Luth looks better than any place I took an official visit to - Harvard, Yale, Dartmouth and Penn - but that was 20+ years ago. They may have better facilities now. Presumably, the Luth is impressive from a comparison standpoint to other current FCS facilties (excluding the non-FBS state schools, e.g. Montana, Dakotas, etc.). Any recruit should view it most favorably. From a performance standpoint, most recruits won't understand how great the Luth will be because they will not have experienced the 6AM winter running sessions on what is now the Lacrosse field. Jeff Oliver is one of the best in the business (and I mean that objectively). He will put the Luth to good use. The incorporation of 'cross-fit style/bootcamp' workouts with the traditional FB power lifts require more room. I expect that players will get more quality work in. In the past, workouts were crafted to the facilities available in the offseason (e.g. running on the BB court) when weather was bad outdoors. The Luth will allow Jeff to do the workouts he wants to do and would expect better off-season gains, or at least more efficient winter maintenance programs. From your perspective is it a huge boost to a recruiting effort when one or two grads are drafted into the NFL? The last HC NFL draftee was over 25 years ago. From my long time perspective that seems to be the case (and another reason, often unnoticed why HYP can get recruits that we cannot...kids with NFL dreams (realistic or not, academic achievers or not) seem drawn to that nowadays).
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Post by JRGNYR on Oct 9, 2017 10:28:45 GMT -5
As long as we stay in the PL we will never be a good team. The Ivy League will always out-recruit us, I hope the administration finally decides to get out of the PL, even Monmouth joined the Big South to be in a better league and they are beating the PL with better athletes than we will ever recruit in this lousy league. Monmouth football moved to the Big South because of the all-sports move out of the NEC.
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Post by inhocsigno on Oct 9, 2017 10:34:36 GMT -5
I am by no means a recruiting guru, but yes, obviously, the more NFL players a school can point to, the better for recruiting. Coach - "Hey kid, you will get an 1st rate education, but if you are good enough, you will get a chance to play at the next level. Just look at X, Y and Z..." However, I think most recruits that are academically qualified to get into an Ivy or PL school, are smart enough to understand that they are not likely to play on Sundays. I certainly don't think they are basing their decision on that item alone.
Also, it is less about the NFL Draft (now there are 7 rounds instead of 12 (or whatever the number was 25 years ago)). It is much harder to get drafted now, then it was 20+ years ago. However, it is easier to be found. Thus, if there is player that has the right the right crib gifts, e.g. size, speed, strength (preferably combo of all three), they will have a chance to play in the NFL, whether they play in the PL, the Ivy, or DIII. We have had guys invited to camps, e.g. Puloka, Randolph, David Thompson, McDermott, Raymond, etc. over the last 20 years. Pujols will probably get a rookie invite. McBeath is a possibility. Raymond making a roster, even practice squad, was good. There are a few younger players that will likely end up in camp somewhere if they continue to progress, e.g. Riley.
Lockbaum, for as good as he was, did not make a roster. However, the school's media arm pointing to X player being in camp is enough for recruiting purposes based on the intelligence and level of student athlete we are recruiting. Realistically, we are not going to out-recruit Nick Saban for a pro-caliber player.
As of September, Ivies had 14 players on rosters, including still Fitzpatrick. With the exception of a few OL, and Brate, most of unexceptional except in the exceptional fact they made a roster.
Having played with and against several NFL players in HS (including 3 on my HS team), I can say that I played with some better "football" players at HC, me not one of them, except for the fact they were missing some combination of the crib gifts that get a player past the paper application. Obviously, those NFL guys also improved in college and made the leap to the next level. A 6'3" safety, assuming he is fast enough, a guy like Riley can pass the paper test. McBeath has the talent, but he may be too light and not sure on speed, to pass the paper test. However, a guy like McBeath, who fails the paper test coming out of HS, but has the talent we want, is the type of recruit we want and need to build around. If they passed the paper test coming out of HS, they would be playing at AL and not for HC or the Ivy league.
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Post by nycrusader2010 on Oct 9, 2017 10:38:41 GMT -5
As long as we stay in the PL we will never be a good team. The Ivy League will always out-recruit us, I hope the administration finally decides to get out of the PL, even Monmouth joined the Big South to be in a better league and they are beating the PL with better athletes than we will ever recruit in this lousy league. Football moved to the Big South because of the all-sports move out of the NEC. Correct. Monmouth actually applied to be an all-sports PL member in 2012 but were rejected. They left the NEC for the MAAC for basketball reasons, and as a result were told by the NEC that they would not be welcome as a football affiliate. They essentially replace Stony Brook as the football affiliate member of the Big South, when the Seawolves entered the CAA.
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Post by rgs318 on Oct 9, 2017 10:41:52 GMT -5
After 25 years in Division 1 NCAA (ok, FCS in football), Monmouth seems to be on a steady course in improving heir athletic programs. THat and the Jersey shore make for a good recruiting package.
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Post by JRGNYR on Oct 9, 2017 10:52:16 GMT -5
After 25 years in Division 1 NCAA (ok, FCS in football), Monmouth seems to be on a steady course in improving heir athletic programs. THat and the Jersey shore make for a good recruiting package. They've made significant strides over that time. Built a brand new facility for basketball and have made significant investments in Olympic sports as well. They're usually pretty good in men's soccer and are building a men's lacrosse program.
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Post by hcpride on Oct 9, 2017 11:03:06 GMT -5
After 25 years in Division 1 NCAA (ok, FCS in football), Monmouth seems to be on a steady course in improving heir athletic programs. THat and the Jersey shore make for a good recruiting package. They've made significant strides over that time. Built a brand new facility for basketball and have made significant investments in Olympic sports as well. They're usually pretty good in men's soccer and are building a men's lacrosse program. Hoops team has had some very big wins the last four years and the football field has a new (5K?) stadium.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 9, 2017 11:53:18 GMT -5
In a lot of ways, I think in our frustration etc we are over-thinking a lot of this.
From what I can see, we seem to be moving in the right direction institutionally football-wise i.e all the improvements we've made (facilities, return of scholarships, improvement of schedules etc).
The "problem" is that this is all coming after 25 years of (and I don't mean this personally toward anyone who played, coached etc during that era) neglect toward the football program. Those guys from 1992-2012 shed infinitely much more blood, sweat and tears playing football at HC than I ever did playing IFL intramurals behind Hart....but as an institution, we kind of took our foot off the pedal football-wise (which was totally out of the players/coaches hands) and we sort of lost who we once were as a football program. We couldn't recruit as we once could, we started to lose more often than win, games against schools like BC and Army mostly disappeared and we fell out of the collective consciousness for many (prospective players, fans)....most here know the story all too well.
On top of this, the FCS football landscape has changed in the Northeast to an extent...more programs (Albany, Stony Brook, Monmouth, NEC etc etc) which has made recruiting at our level tougher now. The Ivies have ramped up recruiting and are "winning" battles on that front that we often won in the 1980s. And there is still somewhat of a restrictiveness to the PL scholarship-model (not giving the full amount, AI is probably still an issue that is overall tricky to deal with, not allowing red-shirting except in the extreme case of a medical emergency etc etc).
Long story short...climbing back (or approaching where we were in 1991) is probably going to be a lot more difficult than many of us hoped despite all these improvements.
I don't think we are doing anything wrong fundamentally...the problem(s) essentially are we going to be able to close that gap (from where we were when we last had scholarships at the FCS-level) and/or is it too late, too different a football landscape in 2017 to do this now?
I suppose only time will really tell.
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Post by cruskater31 on Oct 9, 2017 12:44:43 GMT -5
I remember sitting in the seminar rooms in Fenwick, absorbing the ongoing discussion and providing some (hopefully) insight. I think the mounting frustration over our four loses, particularly the frustration about Gilmore's role in the UConn, Dartmouth, and Lafayette loses, has caused us all to over-think the issue. I do not think we need to descend into divisiveness. Dropping football has about as much chance of happening as going D1-FBS, maybe even less now that we've spent oodles of millions on the Luth. The recruiting landscape has changed much from the 80s as well as from the 90s and early 2000s. This year's team has under performed and we should be in our second or third year of a new head ball coach. Let's focus on rebuilding the winning culture and getting wins in the PL this year. One day at a time. Heck I would have fired Gilmore after the Lafayette game but I'm not ADNP. Let's just go to FBS! Ha!
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Post by realism on Oct 9, 2017 13:14:32 GMT -5
Long story short.. .climbing back ( or approaching where we were in 1991) is probably going to be a lot more difficult than many of us hoped despite all these improvements. I don't think we are doing anything wrong fundamentally...the problem(s) essentially are we going to be able to close that gap (from where we were when we last had scholarships at the FCS-level) and/or is it too late, too different a football landscape in 2017 to do this now? I suppose only time will really tell. I think you summarized things well. With all due respect, I think your energy is better spent on dwelling on the steps toward a future vision. I submit this respectfully. I've been an outside observer of rantings on this board for several years. I have deep and long experience with athletics in the Northeast. Going back much further than your memory. I've had empathy for the situation and the way ou look at it.. I've sincerely felt that thinking of closing the gap to the past was/is less important than creating a vision of a football identity that's appropriate for where H.C. is now and where its options are likely to be via incremental steps in the future. I think the future schedules are a great asset for beginning the process. There are going to be a lot of sequential steps over many years to make even this part work. And this is only one part of a complex equation. I think the concentration on the past is a "Nowhere Burger."
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Post by jkh67 on Oct 9, 2017 15:17:52 GMT -5
Long story short.. .climbing back ( or approaching where we were in 1991) is probably going to be a lot more difficult than many of us hoped despite all these improvements. I don't think we are doing anything wrong fundamentally...the problem(s) essentially are we going to be able to close that gap (from where we were when we last had scholarships at the FCS-level) and/or is it too late, too different a football landscape in 2017 to do this now? I suppose only time will really tell. I think you summarized things well. With all due respect, I think your energy is better spent on dwelling on the steps toward a future vision. I submit this respectfully. I've been an outside observer of rantings on this board for several years. I have deep and long experience with athletics in the Northeast. Going back much further than your memory. I've had empathy for the situation and the way ou look at it.. I've sincerely felt that thinking of closing the gap to the past was/is less important than creating a vision of a football identity that's appropriate for where H.C. is now and where its options are likely to be via incremental steps in the future. I think the future schedules are a great asset for beginning the process. There are going to be a lot of sequential steps over many years to make even this part work. And this is only one part of a complex equation. I think the concentration on the past is a "Nowhere Burger."I agree. The non-scholarship PL devastated HC football. However galling that may be to many of us, there's no point crying over it. We are where we are. Closing the gap to the past looks well nigh impossible for the many reasons advanced by others on this illuminating thread. Given the major investments being made in the program, it seems clear that, despite the many challenges, the college has decided that continuing to play football is institutionally important (although the bases for that decision have never been clearly explained, at least to my knowledge). So, the question becomes what HC's goals for the football program should be in, say, a decade. My own stab at those goals runs as follows: -- It is highly unlikely that HC will find a league affiliation that works better than the PL. (The only alternative that would make sense to me would be the CAA, but there are certainly reasons why that might not be a good long-term fit.) -- Ergo, our goal should be to finish no lower than third in the PL in any year and to win the title, say, at least once every three years. -- HC should lead the PL toward a comprehensive assessment of how the overall quality of football in the league can be improved. Four key factors: -- League expansion. The problem is that attracting some of the schools that would be definite pluses (e.g., W&M, Richmond, Villanova) is a major challenge. On the other side of the coin, any invitees need to be academically comparable to the PL schools. -- Admissions criteria. Ivy League acceptance standards should be the general guide, although some relaxation of those standards would not be inappropriate, given the general recruiting "imbalance" between the Ivies and the PL. We should certainly not be more rigorous than the Ancient Eight! -- Improvement of Facilities. Every school needs to be encouraged to spend a to-be-agreed amount on upgrading stadia, training facilities, etc. -- Expanded/Improved Marketing. What other comparable conferences do to promote their brands should be studied and both the league and its individual members should work to improve their messaging and game day experiences. -- OOC Scheduling. Our present core OOC scheduling is good: 2-3 Ivies; 1-2 CAA teams; and the occasional FCS school. Any PL school that doesn't have an OOC mix like that should be encouraged to upgrade. -- Coaching: As an institution, HC needs to make it clear that we play the games to win the games. That doesn't mean that winning is the only thing, but chronic mediocrity or worse should not be acceptable. If we need to pay more to recruit the right coaching staff, that is an investment that needs to be made. Onward Crusaders! In hoc signo vinces!
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Post by Chu Chu on Oct 9, 2017 16:59:00 GMT -5
I basically agree with hc87, with a couple of additional thoughts. Our development and building of our new athletic facilities at the Luth is a huge deal that will pay dividends for years to come. For a college of our size to have such fabulous indoor training options is without parallel. One other thought I have is that with time, I think that the affiliation with the Patriot League will prove to be the right place for us. Like it or not (and we like it), Holy Cross is a moderate sized, undergraduate, liberal arts college in the Jesuit tradition. We are with peer institutions in the Patriot League, who share our dedication to scholarship, selectivity and true student athletes. We got of to a bad start with the scholarship fiasco, but that has been corrected. Now, we are poised for better days. Keep the faith, and "go Cross, Go!"
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Post by WCHC Sports on Oct 9, 2017 17:23:18 GMT -5
I'm glad inhocsigno can tell me "F you" because he doesn't agree with me. To a lesser degree he said the argument to drop football is silly, again presumably, because he didn't agree. Now, I do agree about his points stating that the recruiting pool is difficult to find HC's "sweet spot" with the most talented players. To a degree, I think that proves my point. It is harder and harder to find both the right players and the right fans to support the program in the way it needs to be successful. In that last statement, I agree with what hc87 said on this page. The program has to have the commitment from the powers that be to succeed. Is the new athletic complex or practice field or even the lights some people pine for (see what I did there?) the solution? Maybe. But maybe it's just throwing money at the problem rather than thinking "is this best for the school," and "is this the best way to succeed?"
It's not a "few" losses that makes me come up with this idea. After "a few losses" everyone coming on the board to rant and spread vitriol... I'm not a part of that crowd. It's precisely the opposite-- systematic losses in ways big and small, on an off the field, conventional and unseen-before, that make me CONSIDER and suggest, rather than protest for a more drastic change.
I get it... you played at HC. I was committed in my small part to the program, and as long as we do have a team, I will be a fan. But I don't have to blindly genuflect to the football program as a result of any of those. I can respect your commitment, dedication, and hard work to the team while balancing education and anything else that was on your plate-- you guys are using the words "blood, sweat, and tears" and being in the trenches-- but it is a game. Please don't hoo-rah me and act like you were at Paris Island before being shipped off to Iwo Jima. Let's just respectfully disagree until the day we find that common ground.
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Post by hc87 on Oct 9, 2017 17:36:08 GMT -5
To be fair, I think I added the "blood, sweat and tears" to the discussion....there were some of those in the WCHC booth at times in 1985-1987 but not too many. The other thing I want to rectify or assert here, is that while yes, I'd love to see the program return to the success of the Carter/Duffner years...I don't expect that type of continued success (60-5-1 I believe for Duffner) to ever return....but it would be nice if we could approximate that type of success some years moving forward. Like any good historian realism/others, I look forward to the future but always have an eye on the past.
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